Saluton [English version follows],
Mi volas scii kial la adreso http://www.wikipedia.org kondukas automate al la adreso http://en.wikipedia.org... Chu Wikipedia estas angla projekto kun tradukoj, au chu ghi vere estas internacia? Oni povas uzi tiun PHP programon por solvi tiun problemon :
function handle_http_accept_language() { $knownlangs = array( "eo", "fr", "en" ); # Etc $lang = "eo"; # Default $lastquality = 0.0;
# Note HTTP reference RFC 2616 - # ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2616.txt
$langtag = '((?:[a-zA-Z]{1,8})(?:-[a-zA-Z]{1,8})*)'; $qvalue ='(0(?:.[0-9]{1,3})?|1(?:.0{1,3}))'; $eachbit = '^' . $langtag . '(?:;q=' . $qvalue . ')?(?:,\s*)?(.*)$';
$alh = trim( $_SERVER["HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE"] );
while(strlen($alh)) { if( preg_match( "/$eachbit/", $alh, $m ) ) { $tag = $m[1]; $quality = $m[2]; if(strlen($quality) == 0) $quality = 1; $alh = $m[3];
#echo "language '$tag' quality '$quality'\n";
if(in_array($tag, $knownlangs) and $quality > $lastquality) { $lang = $tag; $lastquality = $quality; } } else { break; } } return $lang; }
Mi ne subskribis al la listo, char estas mia nura propono. :-)
Dankon, Grégoire =========== Hello,
I want to know why the address http://www.wikipedia.org redirects automatically to http://en.wikipedia.org... Is Wikipedia an english project with translations, or is it a real international project? We can use this PHP program to solve this problem :
function handle_http_accept_language() { $knownlangs = array( "eo", "fr", "en" ); # Etc $lang = "eo"; # Default $lastquality = 0.0;
# Note HTTP reference RFC 2616 - # ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2616.txt
$langtag = '((?:[a-zA-Z]{1,8})(?:-[a-zA-Z]{1,8})*)'; $qvalue ='(0(?:.[0-9]{1,3})?|1(?:.0{1,3}))'; $eachbit = '^' . $langtag . '(?:;q=' . $qvalue . ')?(?:,\s*)?(.*)$';
$alh = trim( $_SERVER["HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE"] );
while(strlen($alh)) { if( preg_match( "/$eachbit/", $alh, $m ) ) { $tag = $m[1]; $quality = $m[2]; if(strlen($quality) == 0) $quality = 1; $alh = $m[3];
#echo "language '$tag' quality '$quality'\n";
if(in_array($tag, $knownlangs) and $quality > $lastquality) { $lang = $tag; $lastquality = $quality; } } else { break; } } return $lang; }
I did not subscribe to the list, because this is my only proposition.
Thank you, Grégoire
On Jan 6, 2005, at 1:38 AM, Grégoire Colbert wrote:
Mi volas scii kial la adreso http://www.wikipedia.org kondukas automate al la adreso http://en.wikipedia.org... Chu Wikipedia estas angla projekto kun tradukoj, au chu ghi vere estas internacia?
Wikipedia originally was a single English-language project which sat at http://www.wikipedia.com/. Later other languages were added, eg http://de.wikipedia.com/. After a year or so we moved all the wikipedia.com addresses to wikipedia.org. Some months later, we moved the English-language wiki from http://www.wikipedia.org/ to a language-coded domain to match everything else: http://en.wikipedia.org/. The old domain names redirect to the new locations to avoid breaking old links.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
On Thursday 06 January 2005 20:44, Brion Vibber wrote:
The old domain names redirect to the new locations to avoid breaking old links.
It is very very easy to avoid breaking old links and refrain insulting non-English users.
A link to www.wikipedia.org will just land in the international portal page.
But a link to www.wikipedia.org/anything will be processed to land in en.wikipedia.org/anything.
NSK wrote :
It is very very easy to avoid breaking old links and refrain insulting non-English users.
A link to www.wikipedia.org will just land in the international portal page.
But a link to www.wikipedia.org/anything will be processed to land in en.wikipedia.org/anything.
I think it is a very nice idea that may content both those who are afraid to break old English links to .org and those who are legitimately offend an international project homepage link automatically to the English version. I personally recommend making this page an alphabetic list of link to local project, and only use automatic language detection algorithm to highlight the relevant choices.
Aoineko
On Thu, Jan 06, 2005 at 10:38:49AM +0100, Grégoire Colbert wrote:
$alh = trim( $_SERVER["HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE"] );
This would be a horrible abuse of HTTP. You should only present the same content in different languages based on the Accept-Language field, never to different content. Having links point to different things based on browser settings would be a nightmare.
On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:10:32 +0100, Frank v Waveren fvw.wikipediaml@var.cx wrote:
This would be a horrible abuse of HTTP. You should only present the same content in different languages based on the Accept-Language field, never to different content. Having links point to different things based on browser settings would be a nightmare.
It's realy horrible for the user such a thing. It's already a nightmare with google sometimes -- If google.com want to be displayed in french because it's my default language in the browser, OK but when he begin to auto-limit my search to "french pages" he change what i expect --- so please not this on the wikipedia. A portal describing the project if you want -- maybe using the HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE field for sorting the links -- but not that.
Black Fox wrote:
It's realy horrible for the user such a thing. It's already a nightmare with google sometimes -- If google.com want to be displayed in french because it's my default language in the browser, OK but when he begin to auto-limit my search to "french pages" he change what i expect --- so please not this on the wikipedia.
What google does is actually even more annoying than this. When I travel in Europe, Google redirects me to the site they think I want based on my *geographical location*. So when I'm in Germany, they assume I speak German, when I'm in Italy, they assume I speak Italian, etc.
This is disconcerting and unpleasant for me.
Better by far would be for them to combine information from my default browser language and my location to offer me options that are likely to make the most sense.
If I'm in Germany, but with English as my default language, why not offer me a German/English hybrid page?
Instead of a link to *either* 'Images' *or* 'Bilder' they could say: "Hmm, his browser wants English, but he's in Germany, so let's give him: 'Images (Bilder)'.
In our case, we don't have (to my knowledge) the technical ability to make a good guess of where people are in a timely fashion. So we can just do what Magnus suggested: give a page that highlights alternatives based on people's default browser language.
I agree completely that serving different *content* based on anything automatic is a bad idea. It can be extremely annoying.
--Jimbo
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales schrieb:
In our case, we don't have (to my knowledge) the technical ability to make a good guess of where people are in a timely fashion. So we can just do what Magnus suggested: give a page that highlights alternatives based on people's default browser language.
Also, I think it would be impractical to show the list of languages alphabetically sorted. Rather, we should sort it by size. This might not be the politically correct thing to do, but * many articles means many contributors * many contributors means many readers * many readers means many people are able to read that language So, sorting by size/article count will increase the likelyhood of a user finding a language he/she can read without scrolling down.
Daily article count updates should do just fine, no need for real-time here :-)
Magnus
Also, I think it would be impractical to show the list of languages alphabetically sorted. Rather, we should sort it by size.
I don't think so. If the list is as large as e.g. the [[source:Main Page]], then maybe. But the list should IMHO not be so big. In either case, searching in a sorted list is considerable faster than searching in an unordered list. And it would be an unordered list for me, as I don't remember the statistics. (Note: I don't really care much about it, I would not use the portal at all, I know where to look for those languages I want.)
That's just my 0.02 CZK (which is really not much ;-) ).
[[ cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec ]]
Magnus Manske wrote:
Also, I think it would be impractical to show the list of languages alphabetically sorted. Rather, we should sort it by size.
My preference would be some sort of a tiered thing, where we list the "major languages" in alphabetical order prominently at the top, perhaps with graphics and large font and whatnot, and then have the big list of all languages in alphabetical order below. Possibly with an intermediate tier. Something like 95% of users (if not more) are going to be looking for one of the top 10 languages, so making it very easy to find them is probably a good idea.
-Mark
On Friday 07 January 2005 21:32, Delirium wrote:
My preference would be some sort of a tiered thing, where we list the "major languages" in alphabetical order prominently at the top, perhaps with graphics and large font and whatnot, and then have the big list of all languages in alphabetical order below. Possibly with an intermediate tier. Something like 95% of users (if not more) are going to be looking for one of the top 10 languages, so making it very easy to find them is probably a good idea.
No, this would be discriminatory. For the best design in multilingual portals please see the webservers we have here in European Union, like http://www.europarl.eu.int/
NSK wrote:
No, this would be discriminatory. For the best design in multilingual portals please see the webservers we have here in European Union, like http://www.europarl.eu.int/
Yes, and discrimination is a synonym for "judgment". When hiring teachers, you discriminate in favor of good teachers and against poor teachers. When designing a language portal, you discriminate in favor of the languages people actually want to use.
-Mark
NSK wrote:
No, this would be discriminatory. For the best design in multilingual portals please see the webservers we have here in European Union, like http://www.europarl.eu.int/
I should also point out that that's a completely irrelevant example, and discriminatory as well. It has a mere 20 languages, and actually does discriminate against many languages spoken in the EU, which which are minority languages and so have lesser official status. For example, there is no link to Occitan, or Basque.
Try redesigning that page with upwards of 200 languages, and see what you get...
-Mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Moin,
On Friday 07 January 2005 21:43, Delirium wrote:
NSK wrote:
No, this would be discriminatory. For the best design in multilingual portals please see the webservers we have here in European Union, like http://www.europarl.eu.int/
I should also point out that that's a completely irrelevant example, and discriminatory as well. It has a mere 20 languages, and actually does discriminate against many languages spoken in the EU, which which are minority languages and so have lesser official status. For example, there is no link to Occitan, or Basque.
Try redesigning that page with upwards of 200 languages, and see what you get...
I agree and in addition, that example page is not a good example - it consists basically only of images. Blind people and search engines will have a hard time navigating this page! Oh, and if you turn Javascript of (or sit behind a proxy which filters it out, like say, in my office) the page breaks completely.
Let's better not model anything after that example :)
Best wishes,
Tels
- -- Signed on Fri Jan 7 22:05:15 2005 with key 0x93B84C15. Visit my photo gallery at http://bloodgate.com/photos/ PGP key on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or per email.
"Hi, hi, hitotai, space taxi to the sky"
On Friday 07 January 2005 23:09, Tels wrote:
have a hard time navigating this page! Oh, and if you turn Javascript of
http://www.europa.eu.int/ has no images and no javascript.
On Friday 07 January 2005 22:43, Delirium wrote:
I should also point out that that's a completely irrelevant example, and discriminatory as well. It has a mere 20 languages
EU pays translators for all these languages. It is amazing that they can manage to fund their translation projects, considering that in some countries (baltic states) translation was not a profession until 1990's.
discriminate against many languages spoken in the EU, which which are minority languages and so have lesser official status. For example, there is no link to Occitan, or Basque.
http://www.europarl.eu.int/charter/civil/pdf/con33_en.pdf
The PDF file states: "Cultural and linguistic diversity in Europe lies at the heart of fundamental rights for its citizens as the integration process advances". EU does recognise diversity.
http://europa.eu.int/comm/education/policies/lang/languages/index_en.html
From the above page you can see the 20 official languages of the EU. Can you think of any other confederation in history or in the modern world having 20 official languages?
Welsh has been spoken in the Europarl. Sorry but I don't have a handy link right now.
NSK wrote:
On Friday 07 January 2005 22:43, Delirium wrote:
I should also point out that that's a completely irrelevant example, and discriminatory as well. It has a mere 20 languages
EU pays translators for all these languages. It is amazing that they can manage to fund their translation projects, considering that in some countries (baltic states) translation was not a profession until 1990's.
discriminate against many languages spoken in the EU, which which are minority languages and so have lesser official status. For example, there is no link to Occitan, or Basque.
http://www.europarl.eu.int/charter/civil/pdf/con33_en.pdf
The PDF file states: "Cultural and linguistic diversity in Europe lies at the heart of fundamental rights for its citizens as the integration process advances". EU does recognise diversity.
http://europa.eu.int/comm/education/policies/lang/languages/index_en.html
From the above page you can see the 20 official languages of the EU. Can you think of any other confederation in history or in the modern world having 20 official languages?
Welsh has been spoken in the Europarl. Sorry but I don't have a handy link right now.
That is not the point! The point is, the EU itself isn't fair in translating its website, because it ignores minority languages. Wikipedia doesn't have to be "fair" either, anyway. We are not the EU.
I personally prefer the tiered system; alphabetise the languages, but place them in separate categories. It's perfectly fair, *and it's just plain common sense*. There's no point in inconveniencing 95% of our users just so we can make the dubious claim of being "fair".
John Lee ([[en:User:Johnleemk]])
I also find Google.com stupid annoying, for the said reasons. Yes, okay, granted, I am actually German and I also am resident in Germany again. From that it is not to be inferred that German was my first communication preference. It is not. English is. So don't try to be a smart-a** about what you only "think" you know by looking at my IP. Did I mention I find that annoying? I thus pretty much agree with the aforesaid.
=== But: I'd also like to add that I WOULD NOT want to see ANY highlighting either. ===
I detest it when some effin' thingmabob tries to be smarter than me. "Everything begins with choice." AFTER I've selected a language, then, ok, if you must, feel free to feed me a cookie that will return me to that language UNTIL I choose a different one. (Though I think no magic at all would be best.) I hate to be guessed or second-guessed. No highlighting or other form of "preference guessing" in the first instance, please.
As for page design, I think the way things are done at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page#lang is a good concept. Of course one would want to add images/flags and give things more space, but the idea of ranking the biggest Wikipedias at the top and smaller ones further below is quite sound (and eliminates the potential for rivalry about whose language is "more important" and should be higher up, because our article counts are a good indicator of what's actually in demand), as is ranking the respective Wikipedias alphabetically within their size group (so they can still be found rather easily).
-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com
On 7 Jan 2005, at 16:35, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
Black Fox wrote:
It's realy horrible for the user such a thing. It's already a nightmare with google sometimes -- If google.com want to be displayed in french because it's my default language in the browser, OK but when he begin to auto-limit my search to "french pages" he change what i expect --- so please not this on the wikipedia.
What google does is actually even more annoying than this. When I travel in Europe, Google redirects me to the site they think I want based on my *geographical location*. So when I'm in Germany, they assume I speak German, when I'm in Italy, they assume I speak Italian, etc.
This is disconcerting and unpleasant for me.
Better by far would be for them to combine information from my default browser language and my location to offer me options that are likely to make the most sense.
If I'm in Germany, but with English as my default language, why not offer me a German/English hybrid page?
Instead of a link to *either* 'Images' *or* 'Bilder' they could say: "Hmm, his browser wants English, but he's in Germany, so let's give him: 'Images (Bilder)'.
In our case, we don't have (to my knowledge) the technical ability to make a good guess of where people are in a timely fashion. So we can just do what Magnus suggested: give a page that highlights alternatives based on people's default browser language.
I agree completely that serving different *content* based on anything automatic is a bad idea. It can be extremely annoying.
On Friday 7. January 2005. 07:35, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
What google does is actually even more annoying than this. When I travel in Europe, Google redirects me to the site they think I want based on my *geographical location*. So when I'm in Germany, they assume I speak German, when I'm in Italy, they assume I speak Italian, etc.
This is disconcerting and unpleasant for me.
Better by far would be for them to combine information from my default browser language and my location to offer me options that are likely to make the most sense.
If I'm in Germany, but with English as my default language, why not offer me a German/English hybrid page?
I worked on this, and can tell that the problem lies in the fact that most people don't have default language set (even though they prefer it or even if it is the only language they know). So, if a user has default language other than English, it could be assumed that the user really wants content in that language; but if default language is English, it doesn't tell much.
I agree however that selecting the language by geographic location is not very good idea. It may help some people, probably even most people, but it will hinder other. In addition to your problem, it does not always give correct results - for example my provider was connected to the Internet via a provider in The Netherlands, and sure enough, Google was giving me its front page in Dutch. And it is much better to get a page in a known foreign language than in an unknown foreign language.
And if you think that you have some problems with Google, try visiting http://www.google.com/intl/sr/ from Lynx and you will see :((
???????? ????? ????? ??????
_______________________________________________________ Google ???????? ?? ???? ???? ???????? ???????????? ?????????? ??????? ????? (*) ???????? ???????? ( ) ???????? ?????? ?? ???????
???????? ??????? - ??? ? Google - Google.com in English
©2005 Google - ???????????? 8,058,044,651 ???????? ????????
Instead of a link to *either* 'Images' *or* 'Bilder' they could say: "Hmm, his browser wants English, but he's in Germany, so let's give him: 'Images (Bilder)'.
That's probably the best solution, but could be somewhat complicated to make...
In our case, we don't have (to my knowledge) the technical ability to make a good guess of where people are in a timely fashion. So we can
An excellent tool that I know of is http://www.geobytes.com/iplocator.htm but it would cost quite some money for a site of Wikipedia's size (https://secure.geobytes.com/buy.htm#MapBytes).
On Thursday 06 January 2005 11:38, Grégoire Colbert wrote:
I want to know why the address http://www.wikipedia.org redirects automatically to http://en.wikipedia.org...
I agree with you that www should not redirect to en.
$alh = trim( $_SERVER["HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE"] );
No, please no! Google.com does the same thing and ***I never use Google.com***. I use Google.co.uk or Google.ca instead. Even on my website wikinerds.org where I use Google SiteSearch, I have configured it to use the Google.co.uk domain!
Hello,
I want to know why the address http://www.wikipedia.org redirects automatically to http://en.wikipedia.org... Is Wikipedia an english project with translations, or is it a real international project?
I asked myself that same question many years ago. I think I posted the first question about this on some wikipedia list at the end of 2001. Always a lot of objections. It would break links, English is the lingo franca of the internet. At the time of the change from wikipedia.com to wikipedia.org used to a opportunity to do it but it has not be done.
Wikipedia is a international project. But only the English may use the front entrance.
We can use this PHP program to solve this problem :
[cut]
No. That is a very bad way to do it. There is no problem to solve. You make a page that contains links to all the wikipedias in all the languages. No browser magic.
Like; http://wikimedia.org/ch-portal/ http://fds.wikipedia.org/ http://europa.eu.int/
It even does not have to look nice. Look how ugly http://www.wikimedia.org is.
I did not subscribe to the list, because this is my only proposition.
Are you saying that you post this but will not take the effort the read the responds?
Walter Vermeir wrote:
I asked myself that same question many years ago. I think I posted the first question about this on some wikipedia list at the end of 2001. Always a lot of objections. It would break links, English is the lingo franca of the internet. At the time of the change from wikipedia.com to wikipedia.org used to a opportunity to do it but it has not be done.
Never from me. I think an international portal is a fantastic idea.
There are some challenges as to what that main page should look like, but I think we have a very very good mechanism for evolving the look of such a site: wiki.
http://wikimedia.org/ch-portal/ http://fds.wikipedia.org/ http://europa.eu.int/
It even does not have to look nice. Look how ugly http://www.wikimedia.org is.
I think it should look nice, but I think if we have it be a wiki page, it will evolve sensibly.
It does not make any sense for us to feature all 200 languages equally on this critical "first impression" page. It doesn't make sense for us to accept an ugly page. So, there is a design challenge, but I think we are up to it.
I think the main thing is, we have to do it.
--Jimbo
How about some introductory text (say one paragraph) which is in whatever language the browser says as its preference. Then all the wikipedias with foo+ articles in alphabetical order BUT at the front of that list the defult language. Then after that the full alphabetical list of all the languages (not quite where we order non-latin scripts in that) in smaller font size.
Say for example i had quechua (about 8 articles atm) as my prefered langauge it would display a paragraph explaining wikipedia (in quechua) then have a link to Quechua then Deutsh, English, Francais etc.
paz y amor, [[User:The bellman]]
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:38:21 -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales jwales@wikia.com wrote:
It does not make any sense for us to feature all 200 languages equally on this critical "first impression" page. It doesn't make sense for us to accept an ugly page. So, there is a design challenge, but I think we are up to it.
I think the main thing is, we have to do it.
Robin Shannon ti 2005/1/7 EP 03:52 sia-kong:
How about some introductory text (say one paragraph) which is in whatever language the browser says as its preference. Then all the wikipedias with foo+ articles in alphabetical order BUT at the front of that list the defult language.
Yes, I think http-accept-language could be used to highlight one or more preferred languages, independently of how we choose to sort the list.
Then after that the full alphabetical list of all the languages (not quite where we order non-latin scripts in that) in smaller font size.
One possibility is to base the font size on, say, article count. Use a log scale or something. In this case it might not be necessary to have an "A List" of languages.
Say for example i had quechua (about 8 articles atm) as my prefered langauge it would display a paragraph explaining wikipedia (in quechua) then have a link to Quechua then Deutsh, English, Francais etc.
paz y amor, [[User:The bellman]]
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