Hi, there are currently four requests on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Approved_requests_for_new_languages that meet all requirements for a new wiki. They are:
Udmurt - .udm Samogitian - .bat-smg Banyumasan - .map.bjk Ripuarian - .gem-rip
All but one of these languages have a test wiki, they all have a number of native speakers willing to work on them and consensus for their creation.
The persons behind the Udmurt request asked that it use the Russian interface. If this is possible, please do so. The others didn't specifically request it, but if it's easy to do so, it seems eminently reasonable for Samogitian to use Lithuanian, Banyumasan to use Javanese and Ripuarian to use German.
Thank you, Tuf-Kat
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While I think Udmurt can be created immediately, I think it's best to look for a better code for Samogitian, Banyumasan, and Ripuarian if possible.
It seems very clumsy to have the "binomial" subdomains, as in roa-rup: (which now has its own ISO code, rup), fiu-vro:... so I think it's best to search for possible alternatives. Samogitian and Banyumasan may not have good alternatives, but I would imagine that there's an ISO/DIS 639-3 code for Riparian, which I hope we could use.
Cheers Mark
On 07/10/05, Tucci tucci528@yahoo.com wrote:
Hi, there are currently four requests on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Approved_requests_for_new_languages that meet all requirements for a new wiki. They are:
Udmurt - .udm Samogitian - .bat-smg Banyumasan - .map.bjk Ripuarian - .gem-rip
All but one of these languages have a test wiki, they all have a number of native speakers willing to work on them and consensus for their creation.
The persons behind the Udmurt request asked that it use the Russian interface. If this is possible, please do so. The others didn't specifically request it, but if it's easy to do so, it seems eminently reasonable for Samogitian to use Lithuanian, Banyumasan to use Javanese and Ripuarian to use German.
Thank you, Tuf-Kat
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--- Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com schrieb:
It seems very clumsy to have the "binomial" subdomains, as in roa-rup: (which now has its own ISO code, rup), fiu-vro:... so I think it's best to search for possible alternatives. Samogitian and Banyumasan may not have good alternatives, but I would imagine that there's an ISO/DIS 639-3 code for Riparian, which I hope we could use.
Good point, the binomal codes are very clumsy indeed and most people not familiar with the standard they are based upon will probably wonder why're choosing them.
A possible alternative has just crossed my mind: why not use four-lettered codes for languages that don't have an iso code (yet)? That would allow us to pick abbreviations that users can memorize more easily while not interfering with any existing or potential future iso codes. (e. g. "samo" for Samogitian, "bany" or maybe "wjav" - to include all Western Javanese dialects - for Banyumsan, "ripu" for Ripuarian and so forth)
Arbeo
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Well since people are being so fussy, but there is no reason to be because if people only knew the cultural point and the details about DLS they'd know it's necessary. People agree there should be one but other don't (which are supprisingly people who are not gonna participate and don't know DLS nor do they speak Dutch or German Low Saxon) I have given up on this wiki, it's REALLY irritating, I'm sick of answering dumb questions from non-native speaker who vote against the wiki for "problems" which can be solved by letting the community decide on the writing system. People who want to start another dialect Nds wiki, which I really don't recommend, are gonna have a hard time. Same really goes for any wiki!
Servien
2005/10/8, Arbeo M arbeo_m@yahoo.de:
--- Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com schrieb:
It seems very clumsy to have the "binomial" subdomains, as in roa-rup: (which now has its own ISO code, rup), fiu-vro:... so I think it's best to search for possible alternatives. Samogitian and Banyumasan may not have good alternatives, but I would imagine that there's an ISO/DIS 639-3 code for Riparian, which I hope we could use.
Good point, the binomal codes are very clumsy indeed and most people not familiar with the standard they are based upon will probably wonder why're choosing them.
A possible alternative has just crossed my mind: why not use four-lettered codes for languages that don't have an iso code (yet)? That would allow us to pick abbreviations that users can memorize more easily while not interfering with any existing or potential future iso codes. (e. g. "samo" for Samogitian, "bany" or maybe "wjav" - to include all Western Javanese dialects - for Banyumsan, "ripu" for Ripuarian and so forth)
Arbeo
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Please let me know if I should continue with this almost impossible battle or if I should just stop here and just let the project go. I initially requested the wiki for people in the Netherlands to be able to write in their own language, since nds is far from even being comprehensible with DLS, and since most/if not all DLS dialects are mutually comprehensible I decided to create a nds wiki with a Dutch orientated writing style and grammar (which most/if not all DLS dialects have). If people only want a German version of this than that's fine (discrimination; but who cares) but personally I'd like to see a Dutch version of this as well.
Servien
2005/10/8, Servien Ilaino servien@gmail.com:
Well since people are being so fussy, but there is no reason to be because if people only knew the cultural point and the details about DLS they'd know it's necessary. People agree there should be one but other don't (which are supprisingly people who are not gonna participate and don't know DLS nor do they speak Dutch or German Low Saxon) I have given up on this wiki, it's REALLY irritating, I'm sick of answering dumb questions from non-native speaker who vote against the wiki for "problems" which can be solved by letting the community decide on the writing system. People who want to start another dialect Nds wiki, which I really don't recommend, are gonna have a hard time. Same really goes for any wiki!
Servien
2005/10/8, Arbeo M arbeo_m@yahoo.de:
--- Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com schrieb:
It seems very clumsy to have the "binomial" subdomains, as in roa-rup: (which now has its own ISO code, rup), fiu-vro:... so I think it's best to search for possible alternatives. Samogitian and Banyumasan may not have good alternatives, but I would imagine that there's an ISO/DIS 639-3 code for Riparian, which I hope we could use.
Good point, the binomal codes are very clumsy indeed and most people not familiar with the standard they are based upon will probably wonder why're choosing them.
A possible alternative has just crossed my mind: why not use four-lettered codes for languages that don't have an iso code (yet)? That would allow us to pick abbreviations that users can memorize more easily while not interfering with any existing or potential future iso codes. (e. g. "samo" for Samogitian, "bany" or maybe "wjav" - to include all Western Javanese dialects - for Banyumsan, "ripu" for Ripuarian and so forth)
Arbeo
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BTW: looked up the word "consensus", it says: "a generally accepted opinion or decision among a group of people". This of course meaning the MAJority's vote is accepted and not the MINority....
Serv
2005/10/8, Servien Ilaino servien@gmail.com:
Please let me know if I should continue with this almost impossible battle or if I should just stop here and just let the project go. I initially requested the wiki for people in the Netherlands to be able to write in their own language, since nds is far from even being comprehensible with DLS, and since most/if not all DLS dialects are mutually comprehensible I decided to create a nds wiki with a Dutch orientated writing style and grammar (which most/if not all DLS dialects have). If people only want a German version of this than that's fine (discrimination; but who cares) but personally I'd like to see a Dutch version of this as well.
Servien
2005/10/8, Servien Ilaino servien@gmail.com:
Well since people are being so fussy, but there is no reason to be because if people only knew the cultural point and the details about DLS they'd know it's necessary. People agree there should be one but other don't (which are supprisingly people who are not gonna participate and don't know DLS nor do they speak Dutch or German Low Saxon) I have given up on this wiki, it's REALLY irritating, I'm sick of answering dumb questions from non-native speaker who vote against the wiki for "problems" which can be solved by letting the community decide on the writing system. People who want to start another dialect Nds wiki, which I really don't recommend, are gonna have a hard time. Same really goes for any wiki!
Servien
2005/10/8, Arbeo M arbeo_m@yahoo.de:
--- Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com schrieb:
It seems very clumsy to have the "binomial" subdomains, as in roa-rup: (which now has its own ISO code, rup), fiu-vro:... so I think it's best to search for possible alternatives. Samogitian and Banyumasan may not have good alternatives, but I would imagine that there's an ISO/DIS 639-3 code for Riparian, which I hope we could use.
Good point, the binomal codes are very clumsy indeed and most people not familiar with the standard they are based upon will probably wonder why're choosing them.
A possible alternative has just crossed my mind: why not use four-lettered codes for languages that don't have an iso code (yet)? That would allow us to pick abbreviations that users can memorize more easily while not interfering with any existing or potential future iso codes. (e. g. "samo" for Samogitian, "bany" or maybe "wjav" - to include all Western Javanese dialects - for Banyumsan, "ripu" for Ripuarian and so forth)
Arbeo
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Servien Ilaino wrote:
BTW: looked up the word "consensus", it says: "a generally accepted opinion or decision among a group of people". This of course meaning the MAJority's vote is accepted and not the MINority....
Serv
Hoi, People who misunderstand majority rule for consensus are just wrong. Consensus is as much as anything the majority accommodating the minority by giving concessions in order to get to a situation that is acceptable to all involved. Just agreeing that a majority has decided is NOT having reached a consensus. Now this is not to say that always a consensus can be reached it is about making the effort to reach a consensus. It is exactly for this reason why reaching for the "vote" is so destructive. Once a vote is under way, people stop talking and are no longer interested in the others point of view and are no longer willing to accommodate the others. Thanks, Gerard
2005/10/8, Servien Ilaino servien@gmail.com:
Please let me know if I should continue with this almost impossible battle or if I should just stop here and just let the project go. I initially requested the wiki for people in the Netherlands to be able to write in their own language, since nds is far from even being comprehensible with DLS, and since most/if not all DLS dialects are mutually comprehensible I decided to create a nds wiki with a Dutch orientated writing style and grammar (which most/if not all DLS dialects have). If people only want a German version of this than that's fine (discrimination; but who cares) but personally I'd like to see a Dutch version of this as well.
Servien
2005/10/8, Servien Ilaino servien@gmail.com:
Well since people are being so fussy, but there is no reason to be because if people only knew the cultural point and the details about DLS they'd know it's necessary. People agree there should be one but other don't (which are supprisingly people who are not gonna participate and don't know DLS nor do they speak Dutch or German Low Saxon) I have given up on this wiki, it's REALLY irritating, I'm sick of answering dumb questions from non-native speaker who vote against the wiki for "problems" which can be solved by letting the community decide on the writing system. People who want to start another dialect Nds wiki, which I really don't recommend, are gonna have a hard time. Same really goes for any wiki!
Servien
2005/10/8, Arbeo M arbeo_m@yahoo.de:
--- Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com schrieb:
It seems very clumsy to have the "binomial" subdomains, as in roa-rup: (which now has its own ISO code, rup), fiu-vro:... so I think it's best to search for possible alternatives. Samogitian and Banyumasan may not have good alternatives, but I would imagine that there's an ISO/DIS 639-3 code for Riparian, which I hope we could use.
Good point, the binomal codes are very clumsy indeed and most people not familiar with the standard they are based upon will probably wonder why're choosing them.
A possible alternative has just crossed my mind: why not use four-lettered codes for languages that don't have an iso code (yet)? That would allow us to pick abbreviations that users can memorize more easily while not interfering with any existing or potential future iso codes. (e. g. "samo" for Samogitian, "bany" or maybe "wjav" - to include all Western Javanese dialects - for Banyumsan, "ripu" for Ripuarian and so forth)
Arbeo
The reason I didn't create these when I created ilo is:
* Samogitian, Banyumasan, Ripuarian, Dutch-Low Saxon: Don't have an ISO code (nds-nl claims to have one but that looks like a pseudo-ISO-code) * Banyumasan, Ripuarian are dialects according to Wikipedia, Dutch-Low Saxon appears to be some kind of dialect as well.
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
The reason I didn't create these when I created ilo is:
- Samogitian, Banyumasan, Ripuarian, Dutch-Low Saxon: Don't have an
ISO code (nds-nl claims to have one but that looks like a pseudo-ISO-code)
- Banyumasan, Ripuarian are dialects according to Wikipedia,
Dutch-Low Saxon appears to be some kind of dialect as well.
Hoi, The problem with Low Saxon is that some people have high jacked the Low Saxon Wikipedia by insisting on a German dominated orthography. Because of the incompatibility that this creates with the Dutch Low Saxon, there is this need for a separate wikipedia. To make matters even more weird, one of the persons insisting on this Sass orthography is not even a Lower Saxon speaker but is one who does contribute to the nds.wikipedia for a hobby.
Then again, I am not interested in the nds.wiktionary.org really. But denying the nds-nl wikipedia because of this is not just.
Thanks, GerardM
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
The reason I didn't create these when I created ilo is:
- Samogitian, Banyumasan, Ripuarian, Dutch-Low Saxon: Don't have an
ISO code (nds-nl claims to have one but that looks like a pseudo-ISO-code)
- Banyumasan, Ripuarian are dialects according to Wikipedia,
Dutch-Low Saxon appears to be some kind of dialect as well.
Hoi, The problem with Low Saxon is that some people have high jacked the Low Saxon Wikipedia by insisting on a German dominated orthography. Because of the incompatibility that this creates with the Dutch Low Saxon, there is this need for a separate wikipedia. To make matters even more weird, one of the persons insisting on this Sass orthography is not even a Lower Saxon speaker but is one who does contribute to the nds.wikipedia for a hobby.
Then again, I am not interested in the nds.wiktionary.org really. But denying the nds-nl wikipedia because of this is not just.
Thanks, GerardM
Low Saxon covers a large variety of dialects, both in the Netherlands and in Germany. Insisting on a German-based orthograpy for all dialects is unrealistic. Therefore I agree with Gerard that if nds.wikipedia takes this step, there is a need for a separate nds-nl wikipedia.
Highjacking is the correct word for what has happened. It is an unnecessary act of intolerance, that unnecessary splits a community, united by a common language across different countries into two groups, living at the opposite sides of a national border. And now, for some obscure reason, one of these groups is denied the right to have its own wikipedia, so even splitting seems impossible.
Anton
The problem with Low Saxon is that some people have high jacked the Low Saxon Wikipedia by insisting on a German dominated orthography. Because of the incompatibility that this creates with the Dutch Low Saxon, there is this need for a separate wikipedia. To make matters even more weird, one of the persons insisting on this Sass orthography is not even a Lower Saxon speaker but is one who does contribute to the nds.wikipedia for a hobby.
So you are contributing to Wikipedia for a profession?
Let's be realistic, all those dialects are all just a "hobby" for everyone. My favourite nds article is [[nds:Nokieksel]]; not because it's a well-written, serious, informative article or anything, but because it's hilarious. It is obviously written by someone trying (and by all means succeeding) to be funny rather than to spread knowledge.
Timwi
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
The reason I didn't create these when I created ilo is:
- Samogitian, Banyumasan, Ripuarian, Dutch-Low Saxon: Don't have an
ISO code (nds-nl claims to have one but that looks like a pseudo-ISO-code)
- Banyumasan, Ripuarian are dialects according to Wikipedia,
Dutch-Low Saxon appears to be some kind of dialect as well.
When we want to accept a language which does not have an ISO code we could use one from that range of codes beginning with the letter "q" which ISO allows for user defined codes.
Ec
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