On Tue, Aug 15, 2006 at 10:44:39AM +1000, Nick Jenkins wrote:
As you can see from this edit : http://wikiwyg.wikia.com/index.php?title=Testpage&diff=136009&oldid=... 6007#Neapolitan_double_quotes:_dsomething (which was typed in wikiwyg mode), the '' gets converted to italics upon saving, not rendered as a literal '' (i.e. what you see in the wikiwyg mode - two quotes - is not what you get in the rendered HTML output after saving - italics in the headline).
Ok, now here's a completely different issue:
What should WIKIWyg *do* if you hand it something that looks like wikitext?
My intuition is that it should *not* treat it as wikitext, and this is the corner case that demonstrates why, but I can see arguments on both sides.
Discuss.
Cheers, -- jra
On 8/15/06, Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com wrote:
Ok, now here's a completely different issue:
What should WIKIWyg *do* if you hand it something that looks like wikitext?
My intuition is that it should *not* treat it as wikitext, and this is the corner case that demonstrates why, but I can see arguments on both sides.
Discuss.
I would say it should not treat it as wikitext *if* the wikitext would do something that the editor can do via button, keyboard shortcut, etc. But if you give it something like a template that it doesn't recognize (assuming it can't call arbitrary template source via Ajax, which should be an eventual goal), then it shouldn't escape the wikitext, so that you don't lose any flexibility.
My intuition is that it should *not* treat it as wikitext, and this is the corner case that demonstrates why, but I can see arguments on both sides.
I'd second that. If conversion from wikitext to wikiwyg is dynamic, then having a "wikitext" option would be good. WordPress has a user-based preference setting for using wysiwyg or html.
- MHart
On 8/15/06, Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com wrote:
What should WIKIWyg *do* if you hand it something that looks like wikitext?
My intuition is that it should *not* treat it as wikitext, and this is the corner case that demonstrates why, but I can see arguments on both sides.
My first reaction is that it should have to be escaped in some magic Wikywyg syntax, which would presumably be accessible from the toolbar. Maybe tripled something, like ///insert '''wiki''text''''' here/// ? Something incredibly unlikely to occur naturally?
It would also be acceptable imho to have a mode where wikitext could be entered directly, such mode being disabled when you want to talk *about* templates, rather than including them directly...
Steve
On 8/15/06, Steve Bennett stevage@gmail.com wrote:
It would also be acceptable imho to have a mode where wikitext could be entered directly,
That mode already exists: http://wikiwyg.wikia.com/index.php/Testpage (first enable wikiwyg from the toolbox on the left).
Regards, - Dan Li
On 8/16/06, Dan Li dto@dev.java.net wrote:
That mode already exists: http://wikiwyg.wikia.com/index.php/Testpage (first enable wikiwyg from the toolbox on the left).
No, I mean, a wysiwyg mode where wikitext is interpreted as wikitext, rather than being interpreted as text to be escaped. That would probably offend someone's paradigm though.
Steve
On Wed, Aug 16, 2006 at 05:27:21PM +0200, Steve Bennett wrote:
On 8/16/06, Dan Li dto@dev.java.net wrote:
That mode already exists: http://wikiwyg.wikia.com/index.php/Testpage (first enable wikiwyg from the toolbox on the left).
No, I mean, a wysiwyg mode where wikitext is interpreted as wikitext, rather than being interpreted as text to be escaped. That would probably offend someone's paradigm though.
I think I'm the someone (:-), and as long as a) it's switchable and b) it defaults to off, I wouldn't have any problem with it.
I think Simetrical is right, though (mark that down, willya :-) -- anything the WYSIWYG *can* do, the wikitext should not be interpreted for (italics, bold, headers, etc). Things like template calls and parser functions can, for all of me, always be 'hot' -- as long as the editor colorizes them or something so the editor can *see* that there's something special about them.
Cheers, -- jra
On 8/16/06, Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com wrote:
I think I'm the someone (:-), and as long as a) it's switchable and b) it defaults to off, I wouldn't have any problem with it.
I think Simetrical is right, though (mark that down, willya :-) -- anything the WYSIWYG *can* do, the wikitext should not be interpreted for (italics, bold, headers, etc). Things like template calls and parser functions can, for all of me, always be 'hot' -- as long as the editor colorizes them or something so the editor can *see* that there's something special about them.
Sounds ok. What if there was a kind of "compatibility" mode where typing ' twice invoked italics (and removed the ''), and typing a third ' changed to bold instead. Just pondering...
Steve
On Wed, Aug 16, 2006 at 05:50:14PM +0200, Steve Bennett wrote:
On 8/16/06, Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com wrote:
I think I'm the someone (:-), and as long as a) it's switchable and b) it defaults to off, I wouldn't have any problem with it.
I think Simetrical is right, though (mark that down, willya :-) -- anything the WYSIWYG *can* do, the wikitext should not be interpreted for (italics, bold, headers, etc). Things like template calls and parser functions can, for all of me, always be 'hot' -- as long as the editor colorizes them or something so the editor can *see* that there's something special about them.
Sounds ok. What if there was a kind of "compatibility" mode where typing ' twice invoked italics (and removed the ''), and typing a third ' changed to bold instead. Just pondering...
Yeah; I wouldn't mind that either; might even use it.
But what do you do when you typed ''' but meant ''... and it's gone now? :-)
Cheers, -- jra
On 8/16/06, Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com wrote:
But what do you do when you typed ''' but meant ''... and it's gone now? :-)
Backspace. That's the convention in word processors for when it magically converts something you typed to something else. For instance, if you type a URL-looking thing in Word, then hit space, you'll get blue and underlining. If you immediately hit backspace, the blue and underlining disappears, but the space you entered remains: no actual character is erased, it reinterprets the key as meaning "undo the last automatic conversion" if that's applicable.
I think you can no longer do that as soon as you hit any other key, though. It has to be immediate.
On 8/16/06, Simetrical Simetrical+wikitech@gmail.com wrote:
Backspace. That's the convention in word processors for when it magically converts something you typed to something else. For instance, if you type a URL-looking thing in Word, then hit space, you'll get blue and underlining. If you immediately hit backspace, the blue and underlining disappears, but the space you entered remains: no actual character is erased, it reinterprets the key as meaning "undo the last automatic conversion" if that's applicable.
Yeah, very commonly happens to me with ellipses (...) and various niceties like 1st, TM, (C) etc.
I think you can no longer do that as soon as you hit any other key, though. It has to be immediate.
Undo (Ctrl+z) still works. All those things are basically autocorrect, so it's called "undo autocorrect".
Steve
On Wed, Aug 16, 2006 at 03:13:23PM -0400, Simetrical wrote:
On 8/16/06, Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com wrote:
But what do you do when you typed ''' but meant ''... and it's gone now? :-)
Backspace. That's the convention in word processors for when it magically converts something you typed to something else. For instance, if you type a URL-looking thing in Word, then hit space, you'll get blue and underlining. If you immediately hit backspace, the blue and underlining disappears, but the space you entered remains: no actual character is erased, it reinterprets the key as meaning "undo the last automatic conversion" if that's applicable.
I think you can no longer do that as soon as you hit any other key, though. It has to be immediate.
I'll have to call that a miswart, if the modality of the cursor isn't somehow indicated. I see why it's a useful solution, though. It could be, however, difficult to explain why backspace converts three "'"s to *none*, instead of two.
Perhaps not *converting* it until a character after it is typed...
Cheers, -- jr 'will design other people's software for food' a
On 8/16/06, Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com wrote:
But what do you do when you typed ''' but meant ''... and it's gone now? :-)
I'm not sure "you" actually wanted: italics or two apostrophes? If you wanted italics, then you simply backspace the change to bold, and try again. If you wanted apostrophes, you backspace the change to bold, disable whatever that mode is, then type two apostrophes...
</straightface>
Steve
On Wed, Aug 16, 2006 at 09:14:48PM +0200, Steve Bennett wrote:
On 8/16/06, Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com wrote:
But what do you do when you typed ''' but meant ''... and it's gone now? :-)
I'm not sure "you" actually wanted: italics or two apostrophes? If you wanted italics, then you simply backspace the change to bold, and try again. If you wanted apostrophes, you backspace the change to bold, disable whatever that mode is, then type two apostrophes...
Let me clarify.
If you wanted the wikimode that '' gives you, and inadvertantly type ''' instead, optimally, backspacing should return you to '', rather than eating the 'token' altogether, since 'civilians' don't know from 'tokens'.
Cheers, -- jr "or 'apostrophes'" a
On 8/16/06, Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com wrote:
If you wanted the wikimode that '' gives you, and inadvertantly type ''' instead, optimally, backspacing should return you to '', rather than eating the 'token' altogether, since 'civilians' don't know from 'tokens'.
I'm kind of totally confused. I was pretty much presuming that for normal "civilians", typing '' would give them '' - two apostrophes, which would be escaped when you save. If you're in some fancy mode where giving '' actually gives you italics, and ''' gives you bold, well, you can probably figure out why apostrophe-apostrophe-apostrophe-backspace gives you nothing at all.
Steve
On Wed, Aug 16, 2006 at 09:37:31PM +0200, Steve Bennett wrote:
On 8/16/06, Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com wrote:
If you wanted the wikimode that '' gives you, and inadvertantly type ''' instead, optimally, backspacing should return you to '', rather than eating the 'token' altogether, since 'civilians' don't know from 'tokens'.
I'm kind of totally confused. I was pretty much presuming that for normal "civilians", typing '' would give them '' - two apostrophes, which would be escaped when you save. If you're in some fancy mode where giving '' actually gives you italics, and ''' gives you bold, well, you can probably figure out why apostrophe-apostrophe-apostrophe-backspace gives you nothing at all.
Because I assumed you meant "I type '''this, and when I type the 't', the system switches to bold, and makes the ''' disappear immediately", which is pretty clearly not what you really meant. :-)
Cheers, -- jra
On 8/16/06, Steve Bennett stevage@gmail.com wrote:
My first reaction is that it should have to be escaped in some magic Wikywyg syntax, which would presumably be accessible from the toolbar. Maybe tripled something, like ///insert '''wiki''text''''' here/// ? Something incredibly unlikely to occur naturally?
<nowiki> would work fine. :)
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