Now, now, no need for that.
There's a lot of competing thought about the best way to maximize human-computer interaction.
MediaWiki is pretty far from the original wikiwiki design intent of Ward Cunningham. Doesn't mean either is right or wrong.
On 8/10/06, Christiaan Briggs christiaan@yurkycross.co.uk wrote:
In your world the human should bend to the computer. My users think it should be the other way round.
You're not elitist Jay, you're just a prick.
Christiaan
On 10 Aug 2006, at 4:28 PM, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 12:57:58PM +0100, Christiaan Briggs wrote:
For your interest, it looks like Apple has come to the party with a wiki of its own, without the need for people to learn markup language: http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/leopard/wikiserver.html
[ looks ]
Oh, it's a wiki with a WYSIWYG editor on the front.
Yeah, we've got that.
We've been using MediaWiki as our office intranet over the years but it's never been adopted to a level that we think it could be, because of the requirement that users learn wiki markup. For this reason we'll be ditching MediaWiki in our office next year for Apple's Wiki Server.
The reason I'm posting this is simply put forward the view that I hope WYSIWYG or some relevant variant will be developed for Wikimedia projects in the near future, because I think the hurdles that stop many people from participating on our office intranet apply equally to Wikimedia projects. And the hurdle is not that wiki markup is "difficult" or "hard to learn" but that it is intimidating and time- consuming to learn.
With all due respect to your users, bullshit.
Number one, you don't actually *need* to use any markup at all. Number two, the markup you might *want* to use is so trivial, that I have to say that anyone who can't be bothered to learn it -- it's just that: they can't be bothered.
Screw 'em.
If you're not willing to learn the tools, you're not entitled to the ease their use contributes to your life. And good riddance.
I'm elitest, sure, but that outlook is *not*, IMHO.
I have little doubt that one day using wiki markup only to edit websites like Wikipedia will be seen as an anachronism, even more so as other alternatives to MediaWiki (such as Apple's Wiki Server) come online, but there's a few hurdles to overcome yet and they're not all technical ones as far as I can work out.
It's always surprised me that WYSIWYG editing has not been made a high priority for Wikimedia, considering the fact that it was founded on the idea of broad participation. Although technical difficulties are often put forward as the reason, the biggest obstacle, it has often seemed to me, is an installed base of Wikipedians who see wiki markup as a way of protecting their territory and minimising participation by others. I've even had people argue that wiki markup is some kind of "intelligence" hurdle that people should have to overcome before being allowed to edit Wikimedia projects. Somehow this needs to be overcome if WYSIWYG is to gain traction and get a higher priority it seems to me.
Bullshit.
There will need tobe markup in the internal storage format anyway; if you want WYSIWYG, you bolt it on around the outside. That's the only design pattern that makes any sense at all.
Given that, I see no reason to penalize those who *prefer* power by making the markup language inaccessible -- which I'd bet cash Apple has done -- and if you want or need a WYG editor, put one on there.
But don't dis MediaWiki because the native interface is ... the native interface. That's just strawman.
Thanks to those who have been working on WYSIWYG for MediaWiki, particularly in trying to integrate FCKEditor, and I wish you well. However, if integrating an editor into the current environment is so difficult maybe there needs to be a new approach, such as developing new software/syntax with some type of WYSIWYG editor built in from the start? Worth a discussion at least, I should imagine.
I don't think so.
Rebuilding MediaWiki from scratch? That's crazy talk.
If the problem is the weak definition of the markup language, then precess that around until you get it stable enough to WYG in front of.
Anyone along the way for whom this isn't the right tool will no doubt find something else. Darwin lives.
Cheers,
-- jra
Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Designer Baylink RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates The Things I Think '87 e24 St Petersburg FL USA http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274
The Internet: We paved paradise, and put up a snarking lot.
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