Who told the security staff at Ben Gurion that CDs have been distributed as part of the welcoming pack of Wikimania? Jeromy and I were requested to show the "CD you received from Wikimania" and we haven't got any.
PS. For those of you who have yet to fly out of Israel: it's a good idea to have a password / Android lock etc. on each of your electronic devices, so that they can't check their content except in front of you.
On Aug 9, 2011, at 7:06 PM, Deryck Chan deryckchan@gmail.com wrote:
Who told the security staff at Ben Gurion that CDs have been distributed as part of the welcoming pack of Wikimania? Jeromy and I were requested to show the "CD you received from Wikimania" and we haven't got any.
PS. For those of you who have yet to fly out of Israel: it's a good idea to have a password / Android lock etc. on each of your electronic devices, so that they can't check their content except in front of you.
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Thanks for that tip; it's a good idea in general.
I don't know anything about a Wikimania CD, but I do have a security related question. I brought a USB flash drive with me, since I usually keep one handy. Yet there is no way for me to plug it into my computer to verify it's a flash drive because I didn't bring a computer in the conventional sense (I brought my iPad which has no USB port, sadly). Will this be an issue?
I don't think it should be any special problem.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 20:48, James Hare messedrocker@gmail.com wrote:
On Aug 9, 2011, at 7:06 PM, Deryck Chan deryckchan@gmail.com wrote:
Who told the security staff at Ben Gurion that CDs have been distributed as part of the welcoming pack of Wikimania? Jeromy and I were requested to show the "CD you received from Wikimania" and we haven't got any.
PS. For those of you who have yet to fly out of Israel: it's a good idea to have a password / Android lock etc. on each of your electronic devices, so that they can't check their content except in front of you.
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Thanks for that tip; it's a good idea in general.
I don't know anything about a Wikimania CD, but I do have a security related question. I brought a USB flash drive with me, since I usually keep one handy. Yet there is no way for me to plug it into my computer to verify it's a flash drive because I didn't bring a computer in the conventional sense (I brought my iPad which has no USB port, sadly). Will this be an issue?
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Hey James,
This should not be a problem. I passed with four GPS-devices that were not mine trough security control (I borrowed them for the mapping party). Just explain it, and they we'll examine it closely.
Btw, make sure you have something with you with the logo of the conference, to prove you attended it.
Grtz, Maarten
2011/8/9 James Hare messedrocker@gmail.com
.. but I do have a security related question. I brought a USB flash drive with me, ...
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 8:12 PM, maarten deneckere maartendeneckere+wikimania@gmail.com wrote:
Btw, make sure you have something with you with the logo of the conference, to prove you attended it.
+1. I had the feeling Timo and I had an easier time at TLV because I wore the Wikimania 2011 t-shirt. One security person recognized it immediately, another asked which conference we'd attended and I could just point to my chest and say 'that one'.
Short of the t-shirt, the lanyard helps too, of course.
Roan Kattouw (Catrope)
On Aug 9, 2011, at 2:42 PM, Roan Kattouw roan.kattouw@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 8:12 PM, maarten deneckere maartendeneckere+wikimania@gmail.com wrote:
Btw, make sure you have something with you with the logo of the conference, to prove you attended it.
+1. I had the feeling Timo and I had an easier time at TLV because I wore the Wikimania 2011 t-shirt. One security person recognized it immediately, another asked which conference we'd attended and I could just point to my chest and say 'that one'.
Short of the t-shirt, the lanyard helps too, of course.
I used my Wikimania bag as a carry on item with the logo clearly visible.
No one asked me any questions whatsoever at TLV. They just stamped my passport!
Nor did anyone scrutinize or care about any of my electronic items (GPS, laptop, ...) or ask me to turn them on. They just put them through x-Ray and swab tested stuff. They also didn't care about my Arabic language reading materials that I take on the plane. :)
Aude
Roan Kattouw (Catrope)
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
I passed for about 5 minutes interview with just the several basic questions: why were you here, did you pack by yourself, did anyone give you anything (yes, conference materials), what sort of conference materials (no, no need to show, just tell with words). I mentioned that I used the time in Israel to read a book with funny short stories by the Israeli satiric writer Ephraim Kischon, the lady was impressed and flattered. No CDs were mentioned.
Vassia
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 2:50 AM, aude aude.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
On Aug 9, 2011, at 2:42 PM, Roan Kattouw roan.kattouw@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 8:12 PM, maarten deneckere maartendeneckere+wikimania@gmail.com wrote:
Btw, make sure you have something with you with the logo of the conference, to prove you attended it.
+1. I had the feeling Timo and I had an easier time at TLV because I wore the Wikimania 2011 t-shirt. One security person recognized it immediately, another asked which conference we'd attended and I could just point to my chest and say 'that one'.
Short of the t-shirt, the lanyard helps too, of course.
I used my Wikimania bag as a carry on item with the logo clearly visible.
No one asked me any questions whatsoever at TLV. They just stamped my passport!
Nor did anyone scrutinize or care about any of my electronic items (GPS, laptop, ...) or ask me to turn them on. They just put them through x-Ray and swab tested stuff. They also didn't care about my Arabic language reading materials that I take on the plane. :)
Aude
Roan Kattouw (Catrope)
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Since we are sharing experiences:
This morning I went to Ben Gurion Airport for my El Al flight back to New York City. I wore my Wikimania t-shirt, badge, and lanyard, and prominently carried my Wikimania shoulder bag, along with a Wikimedia shoulder bag. I was asked, among other questions:
What was the purpose of your trip to Israel? Didn't that conference end about a week ago? What are your parents' names? Where did you stay in Israel? Near the city center? Do you belong to any community or congregation? Any communities with which you celebrate holidays like the Sabbath? What languages do you speak? Where do you live? What is the origin of your name?
An agent asked me about whether I had liquids; I showed my little bottles/vials and was told to put them all into my checked luggage. My bags were X-rayed, my laptop X-rayed separately. Then I was directed to secondary screening. All my bags were opened and hand-searched and swabbed. I was asked about my ZaReason laptop specifically because it's not a brand/model they'd seen before.
An agent took me to a curtained, well-used cell with no clock, hand-searched me and swabbed me ("spread your legs," "raise your arms," "now face me," etc.), and took my wallet, passport, phone, shoes, brooch, and overshirt away for inspection. I don't know how long I was there. She eventually returned all my belongings to me; one pocket of my wallet had been unzipped and the contents were scattered in the tub.
I could see from a dialog box on the screen that the agents had tried to look at the contents of my phone. I do not know whether they tried to turn my laptop on, or found a way to access its contents.
Overall I estimate the hassle took about 45 minutes to an hour. But at least they let me take my laptop on the plane.
In contrast, before I could get on my flight from New York to Israel, El Al agents interrogated me and searched me and my belongings for approximately two hours. Worse, they put my laptop into my checked luggage, so I could not do any work on the flight (I had not planned on checking any luggage, just using two carry-on shoulder bags).
As part of my search and questioning in New York, an agent took me into an employee break room and hand-searched and swabbed me and took all my belongings to be inspected. I know from mistaken time settings on my phone that they opened my phone and temporarily took out its battery, then had to reset its timezone, the date, etc. I do not know whether they tried to access my laptop's contents.
In New York, I showed the agents a bunch of Wikimania conference information printouts, the registration letter, and my business cards, and was wearing my Wikimedia bag. The agents asked, among other questions:
Do you have a family? Do you have children? Why didn't you take your husband's name? Why isn't he coming on this trip? Do you know anyone in Israel? Do you have his phone number? What do you do for a job? Do you go to an office? Could you talk me through what you do each day? Did you have to do any special training for that job? You don't have more luggage than that? Where did you go to college? What are the jobs you have had since then? Why have you had so many jobs in the past two years? You say you did some consulting for GNOME; can you open your laptop and show me some work you did for them? Will you be traveling in the area after the conference?
The agents in New York were kinder and less brusque than the agents at Ben Gurion, and -- since they'd delayed me for so long -- walked me to the airplane's jetway, ensuring I skipped to the front of the airport security line and any other queues.
In both cases I was traveling alone. And in both cases I was myself, a US citizen whose parents and name and skin color came from South Asia. I can't pass as anything else.
An agent asked me, at the Tel Aviv airport, what community or congregation I belonged to. I didn't understand at first, and my first thought was, "the free software community, I guess?" The community that congregates at Wikimania, that I'd come to Haifa to celebrate. And my search and interrogation experiences were, to me, the least welcoming thing about my Wikimania.
To bring it back to the thread topic: No one asked me about the conference CD.
-Sumana Harihareswara Volunteer Development Coordinator Wikimedia Foundation
Sorry to hear about Sumana and others bad experiences, can't say I'm looking forward to the security on my own flight home.
A couple of days ago I walked through a metal detector and my camera was given more inspection than the half a dozen lads in front of me who were in civilian clothing but carried rifles.....
As requested I won't bother making my own Wikimania CD in deference to anyone returning later than me. I might even skip my "Do I look like the sort of person who packs my own bags" line.
Serious suggestion for the future, amongst the many criteria we use to judge bids for Wikimania we not only need to add "Who isn't allowed to go there or wouldn't be allowed in" but also something about the attitudes of the authorities. On this occasion we were warned a year ago that some people would be humiliated by Israeli security if they attended. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2011/Bids/Israel#Arab_countrie... Glad to hear that the DC team is working on this, I've already heard one of our South American editors say that people from her country are often refused US visas for no reason.
There are plenty of venues available in countries where the authorities have an open and welcoming attitude to foreigners.
WereSpielChequers
On 10 August 2011 17:05, Sumana Harihareswara sumanah@wikimedia.org wrote:
Since we are sharing experiences:
This morning I went to Ben Gurion Airport for my El Al flight back to New York City. I wore my Wikimania t-shirt, badge, and lanyard, and prominently carried my Wikimania shoulder bag, along with a Wikimedia shoulder bag. I was asked, among other questions:
What was the purpose of your trip to Israel? Didn't that conference end about a week ago? What are your parents' names? Where did you stay in Israel? Near the city center? Do you belong to any community or congregation? Any communities with which you celebrate holidays like the Sabbath? What languages do you speak? Where do you live? What is the origin of your name?
An agent asked me about whether I had liquids; I showed my little bottles/vials and was told to put them all into my checked luggage. My bags were X-rayed, my laptop X-rayed separately. Then I was directed to secondary screening. All my bags were opened and hand-searched and swabbed. I was asked about my ZaReason laptop specifically because it's not a brand/model they'd seen before.
An agent took me to a curtained, well-used cell with no clock, hand-searched me and swabbed me ("spread your legs," "raise your arms," "now face me," etc.), and took my wallet, passport, phone, shoes, brooch, and overshirt away for inspection. I don't know how long I was there. She eventually returned all my belongings to me; one pocket of my wallet had been unzipped and the contents were scattered in the tub.
I could see from a dialog box on the screen that the agents had tried to look at the contents of my phone. I do not know whether they tried to turn my laptop on, or found a way to access its contents.
Overall I estimate the hassle took about 45 minutes to an hour. But at least they let me take my laptop on the plane.
In contrast, before I could get on my flight from New York to Israel, El Al agents interrogated me and searched me and my belongings for approximately two hours. Worse, they put my laptop into my checked luggage, so I could not do any work on the flight (I had not planned on checking any luggage, just using two carry-on shoulder bags).
As part of my search and questioning in New York, an agent took me into an employee break room and hand-searched and swabbed me and took all my belongings to be inspected. I know from mistaken time settings on my phone that they opened my phone and temporarily took out its battery, then had to reset its timezone, the date, etc. I do not know whether they tried to access my laptop's contents.
In New York, I showed the agents a bunch of Wikimania conference information printouts, the registration letter, and my business cards, and was wearing my Wikimedia bag. The agents asked, among other questions:
Do you have a family? Do you have children? Why didn't you take your husband's name? Why isn't he coming on this trip? Do you know anyone in Israel? Do you have his phone number? What do you do for a job? Do you go to an office? Could you talk me through what you do each day? Did you have to do any special training for that job? You don't have more luggage than that? Where did you go to college? What are the jobs you have had since then? Why have you had so many jobs in the past two years? You say you did some consulting for GNOME; can you open your laptop and show me some work you did for them? Will you be traveling in the area after the conference?
The agents in New York were kinder and less brusque than the agents at Ben Gurion, and -- since they'd delayed me for so long -- walked me to the airplane's jetway, ensuring I skipped to the front of the airport security line and any other queues.
In both cases I was traveling alone. And in both cases I was myself, a US citizen whose parents and name and skin color came from South Asia. I can't pass as anything else.
An agent asked me, at the Tel Aviv airport, what community or congregation I belonged to. I didn't understand at first, and my first thought was, "the free software community, I guess?" The community that congregates at Wikimania, that I'd come to Haifa to celebrate. And my search and interrogation experiences were, to me, the least welcoming thing about my Wikimania.
To bring it back to the thread topic: No one asked me about the conference CD.
-Sumana Harihareswara Volunteer Development Coordinator Wikimedia Foundation
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
*I've already heard one of our South American editors say that people from her country are often refused US visas for no reason.*
Is not for "no reason", they just think all of us are looking forward for the possibility of live in the "dream land" that is America, and can't believe we would come back after be there[1]. To be honest, is easier to me go to Europe than go to USA (and i don't need visa to go to Europe as Brasil has an agreement with EU). I only can imagine that go to next year Wikimania will be quite complicate for us, but i'm still want to go. :)
[1] No ofense to all good people from USA who are in that list, you have no fault for those things. _____ *Béria Lima* http://wikimedia.pt/(351) 925 171 484
*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Nossos_projetos.*
On 11 August 2011 07:05, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.comwrote:
Sorry to hear about Sumana and others bad experiences, can't say I'm looking forward to the security on my own flight home.
A couple of days ago I walked through a metal detector and my camera was given more inspection than the half a dozen lads in front of me who were in civilian clothing but carried rifles.....
As requested I won't bother making my own Wikimania CD in deference to anyone returning later than me. I might even skip my "Do I look like the sort of person who packs my own bags" line.
Serious suggestion for the future, amongst the many criteria we use to judge bids for Wikimania we not only need to add "Who isn't allowed to go there or wouldn't be allowed in" but also something about the attitudes of the authorities. On this occasion we were warned a year ago that some people would be humiliated by Israeli security if they attended. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2011/Bids/Israel#Arab_countrie... Glad to hear that the DC team is working on this, I've already heard one of our South American editors say that people from her country are often refused US visas for no reason.
There are plenty of venues available in countries where the authorities have an open and welcoming attitude to foreigners.
WereSpielChequers
On 10 August 2011 17:05, Sumana Harihareswara sumanah@wikimedia.orgwrote:
Since we are sharing experiences:
This morning I went to Ben Gurion Airport for my El Al flight back to New York City. I wore my Wikimania t-shirt, badge, and lanyard, and prominently carried my Wikimania shoulder bag, along with a Wikimedia shoulder bag. I was asked, among other questions:
What was the purpose of your trip to Israel? Didn't that conference end about a week ago? What are your parents' names? Where did you stay in Israel? Near the city center? Do you belong to any community or congregation? Any communities with which you celebrate holidays like the Sabbath? What languages do you speak? Where do you live? What is the origin of your name?
An agent asked me about whether I had liquids; I showed my little bottles/vials and was told to put them all into my checked luggage. My bags were X-rayed, my laptop X-rayed separately. Then I was directed to secondary screening. All my bags were opened and hand-searched and swabbed. I was asked about my ZaReason laptop specifically because it's not a brand/model they'd seen before.
An agent took me to a curtained, well-used cell with no clock, hand-searched me and swabbed me ("spread your legs," "raise your arms," "now face me," etc.), and took my wallet, passport, phone, shoes, brooch, and overshirt away for inspection. I don't know how long I was there. She eventually returned all my belongings to me; one pocket of my wallet had been unzipped and the contents were scattered in the tub.
I could see from a dialog box on the screen that the agents had tried to look at the contents of my phone. I do not know whether they tried to turn my laptop on, or found a way to access its contents.
Overall I estimate the hassle took about 45 minutes to an hour. But at least they let me take my laptop on the plane.
In contrast, before I could get on my flight from New York to Israel, El Al agents interrogated me and searched me and my belongings for approximately two hours. Worse, they put my laptop into my checked luggage, so I could not do any work on the flight (I had not planned on checking any luggage, just using two carry-on shoulder bags).
As part of my search and questioning in New York, an agent took me into an employee break room and hand-searched and swabbed me and took all my belongings to be inspected. I know from mistaken time settings on my phone that they opened my phone and temporarily took out its battery, then had to reset its timezone, the date, etc. I do not know whether they tried to access my laptop's contents.
In New York, I showed the agents a bunch of Wikimania conference information printouts, the registration letter, and my business cards, and was wearing my Wikimedia bag. The agents asked, among other questions:
Do you have a family? Do you have children? Why didn't you take your husband's name? Why isn't he coming on this trip? Do you know anyone in Israel? Do you have his phone number? What do you do for a job? Do you go to an office? Could you talk me through what you do each day? Did you have to do any special training for that job? You don't have more luggage than that? Where did you go to college? What are the jobs you have had since then? Why have you had so many jobs in the past two years? You say you did some consulting for GNOME; can you open your laptop and show me some work you did for them? Will you be traveling in the area after the conference?
The agents in New York were kinder and less brusque than the agents at Ben Gurion, and -- since they'd delayed me for so long -- walked me to the airplane's jetway, ensuring I skipped to the front of the airport security line and any other queues.
In both cases I was traveling alone. And in both cases I was myself, a US citizen whose parents and name and skin color came from South Asia. I can't pass as anything else.
An agent asked me, at the Tel Aviv airport, what community or congregation I belonged to. I didn't understand at first, and my first thought was, "the free software community, I guess?" The community that congregates at Wikimania, that I'd come to Haifa to celebrate. And my search and interrogation experiences were, to me, the least welcoming thing about my Wikimania.
To bring it back to the thread topic: No one asked me about the conference CD.
-Sumana Harihareswara Volunteer Development Coordinator Wikimedia Foundation
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Béria Lima berialima@gmail.com wrote:
Is not for "no reason", they just think all of us are looking forward for the possibility of live in the "dream land" that is America, and can't believe we would come back after be there[1].
This is not as exaggerated as it may sound. When someone applies for a nonimmigrant visa or visa-free entry, the consular or immigration officer is required by law to assume immigrant intent (i.e. assume they intend to stay forever; the opposite of assume good faith I guess :D) unless the applicant can convince them otherwise by showing binding ties (job, education, house, family, those kind of things, reasons why you'd come back) to their home country.
Roan
On 11.08.2011 12:42, Roan Kattouw wrote:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Béria Lima berialima@gmail.com wrote:
Is not for "no reason", they just think all of us are looking forward for the possibility of live in the "dream land" that is America, and can't believe we would come back after be there[1].
This is not as exaggerated as it may sound. When someone applies for a nonimmigrant visa or visa-free entry, the consular or immigration officer is required by law to assume immigrant intent (i.e. assume they intend to stay forever; the opposite of assume good faith I guess :D) unless the applicant can convince them otherwise by showing binding ties (job, education, house, family, those kind of things, reasons why you'd come back) to their home country.
Interestingly, this is quite similar, though converse, to what it was like to get out of East Germany[1]: the officer would assume you intended to stay out, and you had to show binding ties that would make you come back.
it's a strange world.
daniel
[1] I'm told. I was quite young then, and living in the West.
That is normal for all countries Roan, we complain because they don't ask those questions to Europeans (though is better live in Brazil now than in Europe and USA because our economy is not falling apart - yet.) or Asians. Only South Americans.
We don't complain about the security things, we complain because they are not random, but selective. _____ *Béria Lima* http://wikimedia.pt/(351) 925 171 484
*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Nossos_projetos.*
On 11 August 2011 11:42, Roan Kattouw roan.kattouw@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Béria Lima berialima@gmail.com wrote:
Is not for "no reason", they just think all of us are looking forward for the possibility of live in the "dream land" that is America, and can't believe we would come back after be there[1].
This is not as exaggerated as it may sound. When someone applies for a nonimmigrant visa or visa-free entry, the consular or immigration officer is required by law to assume immigrant intent (i.e. assume they intend to stay forever; the opposite of assume good faith I guess :D) unless the applicant can convince them otherwise by showing binding ties (job, education, house, family, those kind of things, reasons why you'd come back) to their home country.
Roan
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Béria Lima berialima@gmail.com wrote:
That is normal for all countries Roan, we complain because they don't ask those questions to Europeans (though is better live in Brazil now than in Europe and USA because our economy is not falling apart - yet.) or Asians. Only South Americans.
That's not true. They also use the same principle in Russia. And I think in other countries as well, except Europe, which mostly has visa-free entrance.
--vvv
Victor,
Let's hope i'm wrong and you're right. After all, latino americanos are a big group in Wikimania (more than 30 this year). _____ *Béria Lima* http://wikimedia.pt/(351) 925 171 484
*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Nossos_projetos.*
On 11 August 2011 18:50, Victor Vasiliev vasilvv@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Béria Lima berialima@gmail.com wrote:
That is normal for all countries Roan, we complain because they don't ask those questions to Europeans (though is better live in Brazil now than in Europe and USA because our economy is not falling apart - yet.) or
Asians.
Only South Americans.
That's not true. They also use the same principle in Russia. And I think in other countries as well, except Europe, which mostly has visa-free entrance.
--vvv
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Just to clarify. I was with a group of Argentinians and other Chilean. None of the Argentinians had problems at all (just the usual hard security controls). I had problems all the time, I guess because of my potential Arab name (and look? who knows). Dennis had problems with his PC but I don't think it was targeted because of being Chilean and/or Latin American. I don't know the experience of the Bolivian guy or the Brazilians, but I don't think they had great problems.
The problem is that if you look like Arab or Muslim some way you will have problems for sure. And that's discrimination anyway.
2011/8/11 Béria Lima berialima@gmail.com
Victor,
Let's hope i'm wrong and you're right. After all, latino americanos are a big group in Wikimania (more than 30 this year). _____ *Béria Lima* http://wikimedia.pt/(351) 925 171 484
*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Nossos_projetos.*
On 11 August 2011 18:50, Victor Vasiliev vasilvv@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Béria Lima berialima@gmail.com wrote:
That is normal for all countries Roan, we complain because they don't
ask
those questions to Europeans (though is better live in Brazil now than
in
Europe and USA because our economy is not falling apart - yet.) or
Asians.
Only South Americans.
That's not true. They also use the same principle in Russia. And I think in other countries as well, except Europe, which mostly has visa-free entrance.
--vvv
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Every one of us has received a book „Facts about Israel“. It is a not very neutral one, but that makes it so very interesting. The „History“ part of that book can tell you the story of why such precautions are being taken in the case of people looking Arab. Classic discrimination is something else; these at the airport were security procedures based on statistics mostly.
Best wishes, Viatcheslav.
11.08.2011, 22:29, "Osmar Valdebenito" osmar@wikimediachile.cl:
The problem is that if you look like Arab or Muslim some way you will have problems for sure. And that's discrimination anyway.
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 21:59, Иванов Вячеслав v.ivanov@amikeco.ru wrote:
Every one of us has received a book „Facts about Israel“. It is a not very neutral one, but that makes it so very interesting.
I love the wording of some parts of the "History" section that make it impossible to accuse them of not at least indirectly mentioning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing. Brilliant rhetoric.
I came accross a luggage claims form case anybody wants to try to get redress from El-Al for confiscated items: http://www.elal.co.il/ELAL/English/AllAboutYourFlight/PostFlight/BaggageTrac...
henna
On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 18:53, Mathias Schindler mathias.schindler@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 21:59, Иванов Вячеслав v.ivanov@amikeco.ru wrote:
Every one of us has received a book „Facts about Israel“. It is a not very neutral one, but that makes it so very interesting.
I love the wording of some parts of the "History" section that make it impossible to accuse them of not at least indirectly mentioning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing. Brilliant rhetoric.
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Mathias Schindler, 15/08/2011 18:53:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 21:59, Иванов Вячеславv.ivanov@amikeco.ru wrote:
Every one of us has received a book „Facts about Israel“. It is a not very neutral one, but that makes it so very interesting.
I love the wording of some parts of the "History" section that make it impossible to accuse them of not at least indirectly mentioning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing. Brilliant rhetoric.
I haven't had the pleasure to read it yet; I only know that (probably) because of the things I received at the conference they inspected my luggage very carefully after the otherwise very lucky (less than 2 min long) questioning, and they were very surprised when I told them that it was a gift of the state itself... The most suspect item at the wonder-machine, though, was a deck of playing cards which have then been analyzed almost one by one.
Nemo
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 7:37 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Mathias Schindler, 15/08/2011 18:53:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 21:59, Иванов Вячеславv.ivanov@amikeco.ru wrote:
Every one of us has received a book „Facts about Israel“. It is a not very neutral one, but that makes it so very interesting.
I love the wording of some parts of the "History" section that make it impossible to accuse them of not at least indirectly mentioning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing. Brilliant rhetoric.
I haven't had the pleasure to read it yet; I only know that (probably) because of the things I received at the conference they inspected my luggage very carefully after the otherwise very lucky (less than 2 min long) questioning, and they were very surprised when I told them that it was a gift of the state itself... The most suspect item at the wonder-machine, though, was a deck of playing cards which have then been analyzed almost one by one.
Nemo
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Pretty much the same thing with me; they didn't think of me as being that suspicious but they were concerned about the bag. (I told them I received it at the conference.) They took a look at each thing, and the inspector seemed intrigued by the contents of the Israel book. In the end everything worked out.
Interesting - with us they couldnt care less. Not even a hello was availablle - as long as we kept moving and stood nicely in queue.
Lodewijk
2011/8/16 James Hare messedrocker@gmail.com
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 7:37 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Mathias Schindler, 15/08/2011 18:53:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 21:59, Иванов Вячеславv.ivanov@amikeco.ru
wrote:
Every one of us has received a book „Facts about Israel“. It is a not very neutral one, but that makes it so very interesting.
I love the wording of some parts of the "History" section that make it impossible to accuse them of not at least indirectly mentioning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing. Brilliant rhetoric.
I haven't had the pleasure to read it yet; I only know that (probably) because of the things I received at the conference they inspected my luggage very carefully after the otherwise very lucky (less than 2 min long) questioning, and they were very surprised when I told them that it was a gift of the state itself... The most suspect item at the wonder-machine, though, was a deck of playing cards which have then been analyzed almost one by one.
Nemo
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Pretty much the same thing with me; they didn't think of me as being that suspicious but they were concerned about the bag. (I told them I received it at the conference.) They took a look at each thing, and the inspector seemed intrigued by the contents of the Israel book. In the end everything worked out.
-- James Hare
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:05 PM, WereSpielChequers < werespielchequers@gmail.com> wrote:
There are plenty of venues available in countries where the authorities have an open and welcoming attitude to foreigners.
Sure. Now all that remains is to get those countries to mount good hosting bids.
And more seriously, I'm sure that _is_ being taken into consideration when judging bids.
Cheers,
Asaf
On 08/10/2011 06:05 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
[…]
In both cases I was traveling alone. And in both cases I was myself, a US citizen whose parents and name and skin color came from South Asia. I can't pass as anything else.
This is simply racism and harassment. There can be no excuse for that kind of treatment. If this is the way even a citizen of the western world is treated, I can understand very well why there were (almost?) no members of the Arab world in Israel.
I find it regrettable that next Wikimania is going to be in Washington D.C. Airport harassment might not be as severe as in Israel, but perhaps severe enough so that Arab Wikimedians are prevented or discouraged from attending.
Don't get me wrong, Wikimania in Israel was fantastic and D.C. will probably be, too, but we have to focus more on accessibility for *all* Wikimedians.
Regards, Tobias
On Aug 11, 2011, at 9:49 AM, "church.of.emacs.ml" church.of.emacs.ml@googlemail.com wrote:
On 08/10/2011 06:05 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
[…]
In both cases I was traveling alone. And in both cases I was myself, a US citizen whose parents and name and skin color came from South Asia. I can't pass as anything else.
This is simply racism and harassment. There can be no excuse for that kind of treatment. If this is the way even a citizen of the western world is treated, I can understand very well why there were (almost?) no members of the Arab world in Israel.
I find it regrettable that next Wikimania is going to be in Washington D.C. Airport harassment might not be as severe as in Israel, but perhaps severe enough so that Arab Wikimedians are prevented or discouraged from attending.
Don't get me wrong, Wikimania in Israel was fantastic and D.C. will probably be, too, but we have to focus more on accessibility for *all* Wikimedians.
Regards, Tobias
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
While no one has the power to exempt anyone from security checks (in fact, whenever former Secretary of State Colin Powell travels, he gets the full check to show that everyone has to follow the rules), we can coordinate with TSA, tell them about our conference (including how tech-oriented some of the attendees are), and ask them for advice to make the security check process as simple as possible. My impression, though, is that while Israeli security focuses on you as a person, TSA mostly focuses on your stuff. Follow all their rules (take out laptop for separate x-ray scan, only small bottles of liquid, etc.) and I think you will be fine, but unfortunately I only have the perspective of a white US citizen.
I actually think the bigger obstacle will be obtaining a visa, for those who don't live in visa exempt countries. As mentioned earlier, we will do everything in our power to make the process easier; we will even be looking into visa scholarships. It helps that the US State Department knows what Wikipedia is and that they have sent people to two Wikimanias, 2006 and 2011.
James
We at Wikimedia Israel are not ignoring the stories told on this thread, actually we're taking them very much to heart.
We are now considering a strong letter of complaint to various government agencies and a demand for formal written apology. Details will follow once we have decided on our course of action.
Harel Cain Secretary, Wikimedia Israel
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:07, James Hare messedrocker@gmail.com wrote:
On Aug 11, 2011, at 9:49 AM, "church.of.emacs.ml" < church.of.emacs.ml@googlemail.com> wrote:
On 08/10/2011 06:05 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
[…]
In both cases I was traveling alone. And in both cases I was myself, a US citizen whose parents and name and skin color came from South Asia. I can't pass as anything else.
This is simply racism and harassment. There can be no excuse for that kind of treatment. If this is the way even a citizen of the western world is treated, I can understand very well why there were (almost?) no members of the Arab world in Israel.
I find it regrettable that next Wikimania is going to be in Washington D.C. Airport harassment might not be as severe as in Israel, but perhaps severe enough so that Arab Wikimedians are prevented or discouraged from attending.
Don't get me wrong, Wikimania in Israel was fantastic and D.C. will probably be, too, but we have to focus more on accessibility for *all* Wikimedians.
Regards, Tobias
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
While no one has the power to exempt anyone from security checks (in fact, whenever former Secretary of State Colin Powell travels, he gets the full check to show that everyone has to follow the rules), we can coordinate with TSA, tell them about our conference (including how tech-oriented some of the attendees are), and ask them for advice to make the security check process as simple as possible. My impression, though, is that while Israeli security focuses on you as a person, TSA mostly focuses on your stuff. Follow all their rules (take out laptop for separate x-ray scan, only small bottles of liquid, etc.) and I think you will be fine, but unfortunately I only have the perspective of a white US citizen.
I actually think the bigger obstacle will be obtaining a visa, for those who don't live in visa exempt countries. As mentioned earlier, we will do everything in our power to make the process easier; we will even be looking into visa scholarships. It helps that the US State Department knows what Wikipedia is and that they have sent people to two Wikimanias, 2006 and 2011.
James _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
I appreciate your concern Harel.
Warm thank yous
Ant
On 8/11/11 10:50 AM, Harel Cain wrote:
We at Wikimedia Israel are not ignoring the stories told on this thread, actually we're taking them very much to heart.
We are now considering a strong letter of complaint to various government agencies and a demand for formal written apology. Details will follow once we have decided on our course of action.
Harel Cain Secretary, Wikimedia Israel
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:07, James Hare <messedrocker@gmail.com mailto:messedrocker@gmail.com> wrote:
On Aug 11, 2011, at 9:49 AM, "church.of.emacs.ml <http://church.of.emacs.ml>" <church.of.emacs.ml@googlemail.com <mailto:church.of.emacs.ml@googlemail.com>> wrote: > On 08/10/2011 06:05 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote: >> >> [...] >> >> In both cases I was traveling alone. And in both cases I was myself, a >> US citizen whose parents and name and skin color came from South Asia. >> I can't pass as anything else. > > This is simply racism and harassment. There can be no excuse for that > kind of treatment. > If this is the way even a citizen of the western world is treated, I can > understand very well why there were (almost?) no members of the Arab > world in Israel. > > I find it regrettable that next Wikimania is going to be in Washington > D.C. Airport harassment might not be as severe as in Israel, but perhaps > severe enough so that Arab Wikimedians are prevented or discouraged from > attending. > > Don't get me wrong, Wikimania in Israel was fantastic and D.C. will > probably be, too, but we have to focus more on accessibility for *all* > Wikimedians. > > Regards, > Tobias > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimania-l mailing list > Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l While no one has the power to exempt anyone from security checks (in fact, whenever former Secretary of State Colin Powell travels, he gets the full check to show that everyone has to follow the rules), we can coordinate with TSA, tell them about our conference (including how tech-oriented some of the attendees are), and ask them for advice to make the security check process as simple as possible. My impression, though, is that while Israeli security focuses on you as a person, TSA mostly focuses on your stuff. Follow all their rules (take out laptop for separate x-ray scan, only small bottles of liquid, etc.) and I think you will be fine, but unfortunately I only have the perspective of a white US citizen. I actually think the bigger obstacle will be obtaining a visa, for those who don't live in visa exempt countries. As mentioned earlier, we will do everything in our power to make the process easier; we will even be looking into visa scholarships. It helps that the US State Department knows what Wikipedia is and that they have sent people to two Wikimanias, 2006 and 2011. James _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Hey,
We reads every one of yours emails and twittets. I feel shame that things like that happen to part of the participates, but other things also need to say - it not happen to everyone, and this is the Israeli security process.
We talked before, and also today with the airport - they know about Wikimania group, and they also to expedite this process.. The manger told us today that August is the most busy month on Ben Gurion - They doing as much as they can to make things more quickly for Wikimania participates (so again SHOW YOUR TAGS!), but they also have security guidelines, that they cannot', in any case, exceed them. The security of the other passengers is on their highest priority.
The airport security has been asked again to make things easier for you, and the staff is doing as much as they can to help you - if their is specifies problematic cases, please report things to us and we will try to check that with them. They really listen to us and want to help us and you - but again, their is still orders and guidelines that they must to do. Don't know what they, and they of course can't tell us how things works and their individual decision (as only small part of the 450 participates from abroad has "suffer"..)
Itzik
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
We at Wikimedia Israel are not ignoring the stories told on this thread, actually we're taking them very much to heart.
We are now considering a strong letter of complaint to various government agencies and a demand for formal written apology. Details will follow once we have decided on our course of action.
Harel Cain Secretary, Wikimedia Israel
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:07, James Hare messedrocker@gmail.com wrote:
On Aug 11, 2011, at 9:49 AM, "church.of.emacs.ml" < church.of.emacs.ml@googlemail.com> wrote:
On 08/10/2011 06:05 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
[…]
In both cases I was traveling alone. And in both cases I was myself, a US citizen whose parents and name and skin color came from South Asia. I can't pass as anything else.
This is simply racism and harassment. There can be no excuse for that kind of treatment. If this is the way even a citizen of the western world is treated, I can understand very well why there were (almost?) no members of the Arab world in Israel.
I find it regrettable that next Wikimania is going to be in Washington D.C. Airport harassment might not be as severe as in Israel, but perhaps severe enough so that Arab Wikimedians are prevented or discouraged from attending.
Don't get me wrong, Wikimania in Israel was fantastic and D.C. will probably be, too, but we have to focus more on accessibility for *all* Wikimedians.
Regards, Tobias
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
While no one has the power to exempt anyone from security checks (in fact, whenever former Secretary of State Colin Powell travels, he gets the full check to show that everyone has to follow the rules), we can coordinate with TSA, tell them about our conference (including how tech-oriented some of the attendees are), and ask them for advice to make the security check process as simple as possible. My impression, though, is that while Israeli security focuses on you as a person, TSA mostly focuses on your stuff. Follow all their rules (take out laptop for separate x-ray scan, only small bottles of liquid, etc.) and I think you will be fine, but unfortunately I only have the perspective of a white US citizen.
I actually think the bigger obstacle will be obtaining a visa, for those who don't live in visa exempt countries. As mentioned earlier, we will do everything in our power to make the process easier; we will even be looking into visa scholarships. It helps that the US State Department knows what Wikipedia is and that they have sent people to two Wikimanias, 2006 and 2011.
James _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
For me, i think it helped a lot to bring a printed version of that announcement from Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Whenever they asked me about what i will do/was doing there, i showed that piece of paper and then my questions were much more easier than those that some of you reported here. The most strange question was "why Wikipedia needs volunteers". So maybe those talkings between Wikimedia Israel and the airport staff showed some results and seems a good idea for every future Wikimania. Every country has some restrictions to visitors coming from some other country, i guess, so all we can do is trying to facilitate these procedures, and i'm sure Israeli team made their best on it.
In Brazil, as in Israel, the security guards were very kind, and all i can say is that El-Al is too complicated (messy, disorganized), and i have to spend some hours waiting in wrong lines because they couldn't explain me where to go. In my way back, i remember a cap that i saw in Jerusalem: "my job is so secret i even don't know what i'm doing". I think this perfectly applies for El-Al, too. xD
Castelo
Em 11/08/2011 08:03, Itzik Edri escreveu:
Hey,
We reads every one of yours emails and twittets. I feel shame that things like that happen to part of the participates, but other things also need to say - it not happen to everyone, and this is the Israeli security process.
We talked before, and also today with the airport - they know about Wikimania group, and they also to expedite this process.. The manger told us today that August is the most busy month on Ben Gurion - They doing as much as they can to make things more quickly for Wikimania participates (so again SHOW YOUR TAGS!), but they also have security guidelines, that they cannot', in any case, exceed them. The security of the other passengers is on their highest priority.
The airport security has been asked again to make things easier for you, and the staff is doing as much as they can to help you - if their is specifies problematic cases, please report things to us and we will try to check that with them. They really listen to us and want to help us and you - but again, their is still orders and guidelines that they must to do. Don't know what they, and they of course can't tell us how things works and their individual decision (as only small part of the 450 participates from abroad has "suffer"..)
Itzik
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Harel Cain <harel.cain@gmail.com mailto:harel.cain@gmail.com> wrote:
We at Wikimedia Israel are not ignoring the stories told on this thread, actually we're taking them very much to heart. We are now considering a strong letter of complaint to various government agencies and a demand for formal written apology. Details will follow once we have decided on our course of action. Harel Cain Secretary, Wikimedia Israel On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:07, James Hare <messedrocker@gmail.com <mailto:messedrocker@gmail.com>> wrote: On Aug 11, 2011, at 9:49 AM, "church.of.emacs.ml <http://church.of.emacs.ml>" <church.of.emacs.ml@googlemail.com <mailto:church.of.emacs.ml@googlemail.com>> wrote: > On 08/10/2011 06:05 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote: >> >> [...] >> >> In both cases I was traveling alone. And in both cases I was myself, a >> US citizen whose parents and name and skin color came from South Asia. >> I can't pass as anything else. > > This is simply racism and harassment. There can be no excuse for that > kind of treatment. > If this is the way even a citizen of the western world is treated, I can > understand very well why there were (almost?) no members of the Arab > world in Israel. > > I find it regrettable that next Wikimania is going to be in Washington > D.C. Airport harassment might not be as severe as in Israel, but perhaps > severe enough so that Arab Wikimedians are prevented or discouraged from > attending. > > Don't get me wrong, Wikimania in Israel was fantastic and D.C. will > probably be, too, but we have to focus more on accessibility for *all* > Wikimedians. > > Regards, > Tobias > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimania-l mailing list > Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l While no one has the power to exempt anyone from security checks (in fact, whenever former Secretary of State Colin Powell travels, he gets the full check to show that everyone has to follow the rules), we can coordinate with TSA, tell them about our conference (including how tech-oriented some of the attendees are), and ask them for advice to make the security check process as simple as possible. My impression, though, is that while Israeli security focuses on you as a person, TSA mostly focuses on your stuff. Follow all their rules (take out laptop for separate x-ray scan, only small bottles of liquid, etc.) and I think you will be fine, but unfortunately I only have the perspective of a white US citizen. I actually think the bigger obstacle will be obtaining a visa, for those who don't live in visa exempt countries. As mentioned earlier, we will do everything in our power to make the process easier; we will even be looking into visa scholarships. It helps that the US State Department knows what Wikipedia is and that they have sent people to two Wikimanias, 2006 and 2011. James _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Thanks Itzik,
I doubt if any of us have concerns about measures taken to ensure security on the planes. The concern is when things seem to move beyond this or when this is done in an unpleasant manner..........
But my thanks for your sending that letter.
WereSpeilChequers
On 11 August 2011 12:03, Itzik Edri itzik@infra.co.il wrote:
Hey,
We reads every one of yours emails and twittets. I feel shame that things like that happen to part of the participates, but other things also need to say - it not happen to everyone, and this is the Israeli security process.
We talked before, and also today with the airport - they know about Wikimania group, and they also to expedite this process.. The manger told us today that August is the most busy month on Ben Gurion - They doing as much as they can to make things more quickly for Wikimania participates (so again SHOW YOUR TAGS!), but they also have security guidelines, that they cannot', in any case, exceed them. The security of the other passengers is on their highest priority.
The airport security has been asked again to make things easier for you, and the staff is doing as much as they can to help you - if their is specifies problematic cases, please report things to us and we will try to check that with them. They really listen to us and want to help us and you - but again, their is still orders and guidelines that they must to do. Don't know what they, and they of course can't tell us how things works and their individual decision (as only small part of the 450 participates from abroad has "suffer"..)
Itzik
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
We at Wikimedia Israel are not ignoring the stories told on this thread, actually we're taking them very much to heart.
We are now considering a strong letter of complaint to various government agencies and a demand for formal written apology. Details will follow once we have decided on our course of action.
Harel Cain Secretary, Wikimedia Israel
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:07, James Hare messedrocker@gmail.com wrote:
On Aug 11, 2011, at 9:49 AM, "church.of.emacs.ml" < church.of.emacs.ml@googlemail.com> wrote:
On 08/10/2011 06:05 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
[…]
In both cases I was traveling alone. And in both cases I was myself,
a
US citizen whose parents and name and skin color came from South Asia. I can't pass as anything else.
This is simply racism and harassment. There can be no excuse for that kind of treatment. If this is the way even a citizen of the western world is treated, I
can
understand very well why there were (almost?) no members of the Arab world in Israel.
I find it regrettable that next Wikimania is going to be in Washington D.C. Airport harassment might not be as severe as in Israel, but
perhaps
severe enough so that Arab Wikimedians are prevented or discouraged
from
attending.
Don't get me wrong, Wikimania in Israel was fantastic and D.C. will probably be, too, but we have to focus more on accessibility for *all* Wikimedians.
Regards, Tobias
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
While no one has the power to exempt anyone from security checks (in fact, whenever former Secretary of State Colin Powell travels, he gets the full check to show that everyone has to follow the rules), we can coordinate with TSA, tell them about our conference (including how tech-oriented some of the attendees are), and ask them for advice to make the security check process as simple as possible. My impression, though, is that while Israeli security focuses on you as a person, TSA mostly focuses on your stuff. Follow all their rules (take out laptop for separate x-ray scan, only small bottles of liquid, etc.) and I think you will be fine, but unfortunately I only have the perspective of a white US citizen.
I actually think the bigger obstacle will be obtaining a visa, for those who don't live in visa exempt countries. As mentioned earlier, we will do everything in our power to make the process easier; we will even be looking into visa scholarships. It helps that the US State Department knows what Wikipedia is and that they have sent people to two Wikimanias, 2006 and 2011.
James _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
On 11 August 2011 14:03, Itzik Edri itzik@infra.co.il wrote:
We talked before, and also today with the airport - they know about Wikimania group, and they also to expedite this process.. The manger told us today that August is the most busy month on Ben Gurion - They doing as much as they can to make things more quickly for Wikimania participates (so again SHOW YOUR TAGS!), but they also have security guidelines, that they cannot', in any case, exceed them. The security of the other passengers is on their highest priority.
Unfortunately I have to add +1 bad experience. The first question they asked me was what is the purpose of my trip, to which I answered Wikimania conference. Immediately the questioner called someone else, who took me away for inspection. The whole thing lasted about an hour an half, and included questioning by multiple persons, taking me to an other room for very detailed scanning, during which I had to strip to my underwear. Meanwhile they went through my luggage and backpack and shuffled everything, probably also tried to access my phone and laptop too, but both were locked.
After coming back I had to demonstrate that both my phone and laptop worked, and even after that they forced me to put laptop into check-in luggage, including the charger which they seemed to be very suspicious about. Yay for 5 hour layover in Amsterdam without laptop :(
The whole process made me angry and disappointed, because I had otherwise a fantastic trip. The people were borderline rude, often interrupting me in middle of sentence to do other things or letting me wait for no apparent reason or without telling me what is going on or what is going to happen. I stopped smiling after the first ten minutes or so, but humbly did everything what they asked. I was wearing Wikimania t-shirt, showed them my badge and registration confirmation.
Compared to how I was handled during my stay in Israel I was totally not expecting anything like this. I didn't heard a single "sorry for your inconvenience", only once they said me to "thank you for your cooperation". Nevertheless I'm back home now with all my stuff, and fortunately my friends had a better luck.
-Niklas
PS: I didn't find them very good-looking either, like someone claimed.
Niklas Laxström, 15/08/2011 18:49:
Compared to how I was handled during my stay in Israel I was totally not expecting anything like this. I didn't heard a single "sorry for your inconvenience", only once they said me to "thank you for your cooperation".
The point is that they don't seem to know exactly what's going to happen, either. Also, it's not very efficient to pass info to the next passage either with yellow labels on your belongings (! historical recurrences...) or with an officer who has to keep you company during the 30 min of waiting in the next queue.
PS: I didn't find them very good-looking either, like someone claimed.
Uh? :-? By the way I agree, but looking at some of the lots of the trainees the situation might improve in the future. :-p
Nemo
Federico Leva (Nemo), 17/08/2011 08:59:
PS: I didn't find them very good-looking either, like someone claimed.
Uh? :-? By the way I agree, but looking at some of the lots of the trainees the situation might improve in the future. :-p
Oh, and I forgot to say that one of them was also even drawing (smilies etc.) together with a traveler on her to-be-embarked laptop box. Perhaps she had enough books for her next layover.
Nemo
@ TLV T3 Departure floor
In addition to the previous mails, I'd recommend who plans railway trip to arrive your departure station enough earlier than your train, specially if you are in Jerusalem or perhaps a place easy-to-reach from the West Bank.
Security check at Malha Jerusalem Station would be as serious as at the airport. Though they keep being polite but the check on me took over 10 minutes. I was asked by two officers respectively to show them my passport, open every bag, what I bought in the Old City, and then again explain what almost each item in the bags was, and which places I had visited during my ongoing trip, specially in the West Bank, which Arab countries I had visited both in this particular trip and in the past and finally if I carried weapons. Finally they had me go through with smiles and best wishes on trip, so generally there was no problem at all, but if my schedule had been tight, it might have caused problems.
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Federico Leva (Nemo), 17/08/2011 08:59:
PS: I didn't find them very good-looking either, like someone claimed.
Uh? :-? By the way I agree, but looking at some of the lots of the trainees the situation might improve in the future. :-p
Oh, and I forgot to say that one of them was also even drawing (smilies etc.) together with a traveler on her to-be-embarked laptop box. Perhaps she had enough books for her next layover.
Nemo
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
I don't suggest taking the train from Jerusalem to the airport - it takes a very long time - the train to Jerusalem is very slow and is more of a tourist attraction than anything else.
It's much, much easier to call a sherut taxi called Nesher which will pick you up from home/hotel and take you to the airport for NIS 58. No security process involved....
Harel
2011/8/17 KIZU Naoko aphaia@gmail.com
@ TLV T3 Departure floor
In addition to the previous mails, I'd recommend who plans railway trip to arrive your departure station enough earlier than your train, specially if you are in Jerusalem or perhaps a place easy-to-reach from the West Bank.
Security check at Malha Jerusalem Station would be as serious as at the airport. Though they keep being polite but the check on me took over 10 minutes. I was asked by two officers respectively to show them my passport, open every bag, what I bought in the Old City, and then again explain what almost each item in the bags was, and which places I had visited during my ongoing trip, specially in the West Bank, which Arab countries I had visited both in this particular trip and in the past and finally if I carried weapons. Finally they had me go through with smiles and best wishes on trip, so generally there was no problem at all, but if my schedule had been tight, it might have caused problems.
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Federico Leva (Nemo), 17/08/2011 08:59:
PS: I didn't find them very good-looking either, like someone claimed.
Uh? :-? By the way I agree, but looking at some of the lots of the trainees the situation might improve in the future. :-p
Oh, and I forgot to say that one of them was also even drawing (smilies etc.) together with a traveler on her to-be-embarked laptop box. Perhaps she had enough books for her next layover.
Nemo
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- KIZU Naoko / 木津尚子 member of Wikimedians in Kansai / 関西ウィキメディアユーザ会 http://kansai.wikimedia.jp
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
I flew home on Friday. Unfortunately I had been unable to find anyone capable of printing a Tshirt with "Do I look like the sort of person who packs my own luggage?", or at least not on a Tshirt in my size (walrus). And as promised I hadn't made a Wikimania CD.
It took me 40 minutes to get through security, check in and passport control, and unlike in Heathrow I didn't have to remove my shoes or belt, or even discard my water. After I said that I had received a gift while I was in Israel they were a little interested in my Wikimania bag, and I had to dig it out of my backpack and let it be cursorily inspected. Maybe next year we can make the bag from Hemp and include in it some sparklers or small fireworks for the closing party with perhaps a blade or some scissors for people wanting to customise their badges.
As one of those who argued against holding Wikimania in Israel, I must say that I was very impressed at how well the whole thing was done. I think that the organisers did a brilliant job, I liked the food, and they even had sufficient WiFi. The music at two of the parties was a bit loud for socialising, but that's probably me showing my age. However I don't think this was really a completely Global Wikimania. As some of us feared it would be, this was a Wikimania that largely missed the Muslim world. I don't think that this is the fault of the organisers, but clearly holding our annual conference in Israel during Ramadan was not the best way to encourage people from Islamic countries to attend. I hope that in future we can make sure that Wikimania is more inclusive than that.
WSC
2011/8/18 Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com
I don't suggest taking the train from Jerusalem to the airport - it takes a very long time - the train to Jerusalem is very slow and is more of a tourist attraction than anything else.
It's much, much easier to call a sherut taxi called Nesher which will pick you up from home/hotel and take you to the airport for NIS 58. No security process involved....
Harel
2011/8/17 KIZU Naoko aphaia@gmail.com
@ TLV T3 Departure floor
In addition to the previous mails, I'd recommend who plans railway trip to arrive your departure station enough earlier than your train, specially if you are in Jerusalem or perhaps a place easy-to-reach from the West Bank.
Security check at Malha Jerusalem Station would be as serious as at the airport. Though they keep being polite but the check on me took over 10 minutes. I was asked by two officers respectively to show them my passport, open every bag, what I bought in the Old City, and then again explain what almost each item in the bags was, and which places I had visited during my ongoing trip, specially in the West Bank, which Arab countries I had visited both in this particular trip and in the past and finally if I carried weapons. Finally they had me go through with smiles and best wishes on trip, so generally there was no problem at all, but if my schedule had been tight, it might have caused problems.
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Federico Leva (Nemo), 17/08/2011 08:59:
PS: I didn't find them very good-looking either, like someone claimed.
Uh? :-? By the way I agree, but looking at some of the lots of the trainees the situation might improve in the future. :-p
Oh, and I forgot to say that one of them was also even drawing (smilies etc.) together with a traveler on her to-be-embarked laptop box. Perhaps she had enough books for her next layover.
Nemo
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- KIZU Naoko / 木津尚子 member of Wikimedians in Kansai / 関西ウィキメディアユーザ会 http://kansai.wikimedia.jp
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Hoi, Having Wikimania during Ramadan will prevent people from attending. The dates for Wikimania next year are also likely during Ramadan.
One way of looking at the absence of the Muslim world is that in Alexandria there was a sizable group from Israel. In the end it is about taking the opportunity. The opportunity for most was there with the exception from for instance our Iranian friends who are expressly forbidden to come. Thanks, Gerard
2011/8/21 WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com
I flew home on Friday. Unfortunately I had been unable to find anyone capable of printing a Tshirt with "Do I look like the sort of person who packs my own luggage?", or at least not on a Tshirt in my size (walrus). And as promised I hadn't made a Wikimania CD.
It took me 40 minutes to get through security, check in and passport control, and unlike in Heathrow I didn't have to remove my shoes or belt, or even discard my water. After I said that I had received a gift while I was in Israel they were a little interested in my Wikimania bag, and I had to dig it out of my backpack and let it be cursorily inspected. Maybe next year we can make the bag from Hemp and include in it some sparklers or small fireworks for the closing party with perhaps a blade or some scissors for people wanting to customise their badges.
As one of those who argued against holding Wikimania in Israel, I must say that I was very impressed at how well the whole thing was done. I think that the organisers did a brilliant job, I liked the food, and they even had sufficient WiFi. The music at two of the parties was a bit loud for socialising, but that's probably me showing my age. However I don't think this was really a completely Global Wikimania. As some of us feared it would be, this was a Wikimania that largely missed the Muslim world. I don't think that this is the fault of the organisers, but clearly holding our annual conference in Israel during Ramadan was not the best way to encourage people from Islamic countries to attend. I hope that in future we can make sure that Wikimania is more inclusive than that.
WSC
2011/8/18 Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com
I don't suggest taking the train from Jerusalem to the airport - it takes a very long time - the train to Jerusalem is very slow and is more of a tourist attraction than anything else.
It's much, much easier to call a sherut taxi called Nesher which will pick you up from home/hotel and take you to the airport for NIS 58. No security process involved....
Harel
2011/8/17 KIZU Naoko aphaia@gmail.com
@ TLV T3 Departure floor
In addition to the previous mails, I'd recommend who plans railway trip to arrive your departure station enough earlier than your train, specially if you are in Jerusalem or perhaps a place easy-to-reach from the West Bank.
Security check at Malha Jerusalem Station would be as serious as at the airport. Though they keep being polite but the check on me took over 10 minutes. I was asked by two officers respectively to show them my passport, open every bag, what I bought in the Old City, and then again explain what almost each item in the bags was, and which places I had visited during my ongoing trip, specially in the West Bank, which Arab countries I had visited both in this particular trip and in the past and finally if I carried weapons. Finally they had me go through with smiles and best wishes on trip, so generally there was no problem at all, but if my schedule had been tight, it might have caused problems.
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Federico Leva (Nemo), 17/08/2011 08:59:
PS: I didn't find them very good-looking either, like someone
claimed.
Uh? :-? By the way I agree, but looking at some of the lots of the trainees the situation might improve in the future. :-p
Oh, and I forgot to say that one of them was also even drawing (smilies etc.) together with a traveler on her to-be-embarked laptop box.
Perhaps
she had enough books for her next layover.
Nemo
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- KIZU Naoko / 木津尚子 member of Wikimedians in Kansai / 関西ウィキメディアユーザ会 http://kansai.wikimedia.jp
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
I think Wikimania 2012 is before Ramadan. On Aug 22, 2011 3:59 PM, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Having Wikimania during Ramadan will prevent people from attending. The dates for Wikimania next year are also likely during Ramadan.
One way of looking at the absence of the Muslim world is that in
Alexandria
there was a sizable group from Israel. In the end it is about taking the opportunity. The opportunity for most was there with the exception from
for
instance our Iranian friends who are expressly forbidden to come. Thanks, Gerard
2011/8/21 WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com
I flew home on Friday. Unfortunately I had been unable to find anyone capable of printing a Tshirt with "Do I look like the sort of person who packs my own luggage?", or at least not on a Tshirt in my size (walrus).
And
as promised I hadn't made a Wikimania CD.
It took me 40 minutes to get through security, check in and passport control, and unlike in Heathrow I didn't have to remove my shoes or belt,
or
even discard my water. After I said that I had received a gift while I
was
in Israel they were a little interested in my Wikimania bag, and I had to dig it out of my backpack and let it be cursorily inspected. Maybe next
year
we can make the bag from Hemp and include in it some sparklers or small fireworks for the closing party with perhaps a blade or some scissors for people wanting to customise their badges.
As one of those who argued against holding Wikimania in Israel, I must
say
that I was very impressed at how well the whole thing was done. I think that the organisers did a brilliant job, I liked the food, and they even
had
sufficient WiFi. The music at two of the parties was a bit loud for socialising, but that's probably me showing my age. However I don't think this was really a completely Global Wikimania. As some of us feared it
would
be, this was a Wikimania that largely missed the Muslim world. I don't
think
that this is the fault of the organisers, but clearly holding our annual conference in Israel during Ramadan was not the best way to encourage
people
from Islamic countries to attend. I hope that in future we can make sure that Wikimania is more inclusive than that.
WSC
2011/8/18 Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com
I don't suggest taking the train from Jerusalem to the airport - it
takes
a very long time - the train to Jerusalem is very slow and is more of a tourist attraction than anything else.
It's much, much easier to call a sherut taxi called Nesher which will
pick
you up from home/hotel and take you to the airport for NIS 58. No
security
process involved....
Harel
2011/8/17 KIZU Naoko aphaia@gmail.com
@ TLV T3 Departure floor
In addition to the previous mails, I'd recommend who plans railway trip to arrive your departure station enough earlier than your train, specially if you are in Jerusalem or perhaps a place easy-to-reach from the West Bank.
Security check at Malha Jerusalem Station would be as serious as at the airport. Though they keep being polite but the check on me took over 10 minutes. I was asked by two officers respectively to show them my passport, open every bag, what I bought in the Old City, and then again explain what almost each item in the bags was, and which places I had visited during my ongoing trip, specially in the West Bank, which Arab countries I had visited both in this particular trip and in the past and finally if I carried weapons. Finally they had me go through with smiles and best wishes on trip, so generally there was no problem at all, but if my schedule had been tight, it might have caused problems.
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Federico Leva (Nemo), 17/08/2011 08:59:
> PS: I didn't find them very good-looking either, like someone
claimed.
Uh? :-? By the way I agree, but looking at some of the lots of the trainees the situation might improve in the future. :-p
Oh, and I forgot to say that one of them was also even drawing
(smilies
etc.) together with a traveler on her to-be-embarked laptop box.
Perhaps
she had enough books for her next layover.
Nemo
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- KIZU Naoko / 木津尚子 member of Wikimedians in Kansai / 関西ウィキメディアユーザ会 http://kansai.wikimedia.jp
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
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On 22 August 2011 09:17, Deryck Chan deryckchan@gmail.com wrote:
I think Wikimania 2012 is before Ramadan.
Indeed, I believe that Ramadan in 2012 will run from 20 July, whereas Wikimania 2012 is 12–15 July.
J.
It is - Wikimania is July 10th - 15th (counting Hacking Days and Unconference) while Ramadan starts at July 19th.
On 22.08.2011 10:17, Deryck Chan wrote:
I think Wikimania 2012 is before Ramadan.
This being the case, I'm sure we will have many Arab and Muslim attendees next year in Washington.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 4:27 AM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch wrote:
It is - Wikimania is July 10th - 15th (counting Hacking Days and Unconference) while Ramadan starts at July 19th.
On 22.08.2011 10:17, Deryck Chan wrote:
I think Wikimania 2012 is before Ramadan.
-- Regards Manuel Schneider
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge www.wikimedia.ch
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
The conference was attended by a few Israeli Arabs.
The organizing team did all in its worldly power to bring over guests from neighboring countries, with no success. We even made sure two Palestinian guests were issued entry permits, but in the end they never showed up to pick them at the liaison office.
As the Arab Israeli reporter who interviewed me for one of the biggest websites among the Arab Israeli population told me when I admitted our problems in this regard, "they are now busy with other things". He meant of course the political uprising in many of those countries.
One has to bear in mind that there are many and diverse social, cultural and economic barriers stopping many in the Muslim world not only from attending Wikimania in Haifa, but from attending any Wikimania (how many Arab attendees in Gdansk?), and from participating in the Wikimedia projects. Most of the active editors on Arab Wikipedia are living in the Arab diaspora in Europe and America, not in the Middle East.
I'm happy to say we did have guests from Indonesia, a Muslim country with no diplomatic relations with Israel, and had a planned guest from Mali, another Muslim country with no diplomatic relations with Israel, who in the very last moment had visa problems with France (his changeover station), unrelated to us.
I'm also delighted to hint that in the wake of Wikimania and the connections it helped forge, some upcoming projects for Wikimedia Israel among Arab Israelis (who make about 20% of Israeli population) and with Palestinian organizations are now being discussed and considered. We're really keen on increasing the number of editors on Arab Wikipedia from among Israeli Arabs, whose socioeconomic, educational and political status in comparison to neighboring countries make us hopeful will indeed become active editors.
Harel Cain Secretary, Wikimedia Israel
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:58, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, Having Wikimania during Ramadan will prevent people from attending. The dates for Wikimania next year are also likely during Ramadan.
One way of looking at the absence of the Muslim world is that in Alexandria there was a sizable group from Israel. In the end it is about taking the opportunity. The opportunity for most was there with the exception from for instance our Iranian friends who are expressly forbidden to come. Thanks, Gerard
2011/8/21 WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com
I flew home on Friday. Unfortunately I had been unable to find anyone capable of printing a Tshirt with "Do I look like the sort of person who packs my own luggage?", or at least not on a Tshirt in my size (walrus). And as promised I hadn't made a Wikimania CD.
It took me 40 minutes to get through security, check in and passport control, and unlike in Heathrow I didn't have to remove my shoes or belt, or even discard my water. After I said that I had received a gift while I was in Israel they were a little interested in my Wikimania bag, and I had to dig it out of my backpack and let it be cursorily inspected. Maybe next year we can make the bag from Hemp and include in it some sparklers or small fireworks for the closing party with perhaps a blade or some scissors for people wanting to customise their badges.
As one of those who argued against holding Wikimania in Israel, I must say that I was very impressed at how well the whole thing was done. I think that the organisers did a brilliant job, I liked the food, and they even had sufficient WiFi. The music at two of the parties was a bit loud for socialising, but that's probably me showing my age. However I don't think this was really a completely Global Wikimania. As some of us feared it would be, this was a Wikimania that largely missed the Muslim world. I don't think that this is the fault of the organisers, but clearly holding our annual conference in Israel during Ramadan was not the best way to encourage people from Islamic countries to attend. I hope that in future we can make sure that Wikimania is more inclusive than that.
WSC
2011/8/18 Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com
I don't suggest taking the train from Jerusalem to the airport - it takes a very long time - the train to Jerusalem is very slow and is more of a tourist attraction than anything else.
It's much, much easier to call a sherut taxi called Nesher which will pick you up from home/hotel and take you to the airport for NIS 58. No security process involved....
Harel
2011/8/17 KIZU Naoko aphaia@gmail.com
@ TLV T3 Departure floor
In addition to the previous mails, I'd recommend who plans railway trip to arrive your departure station enough earlier than your train, specially if you are in Jerusalem or perhaps a place easy-to-reach from the West Bank.
Security check at Malha Jerusalem Station would be as serious as at the airport. Though they keep being polite but the check on me took over 10 minutes. I was asked by two officers respectively to show them my passport, open every bag, what I bought in the Old City, and then again explain what almost each item in the bags was, and which places I had visited during my ongoing trip, specially in the West Bank, which Arab countries I had visited both in this particular trip and in the past and finally if I carried weapons. Finally they had me go through with smiles and best wishes on trip, so generally there was no problem at all, but if my schedule had been tight, it might have caused problems.
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Federico Leva (Nemo), 17/08/2011 08:59:
> PS: I didn't find them very good-looking either, like someone
claimed.
Uh? :-? By the way I agree, but looking at some of the lots of the trainees the situation might improve in the future. :-p
Oh, and I forgot to say that one of them was also even drawing
(smilies
etc.) together with a traveler on her to-be-embarked laptop box.
Perhaps
she had enough books for her next layover.
Nemo
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- KIZU Naoko / 木津尚子 member of Wikimedians in Kansai / 関西ウィキメディアユーザ会 http://kansai.wikimedia.jp
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
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Hello,
Most of the active editors on Arab Wikipedia are living in the Arab
diaspora in Europe and America, not in the Middle East.
That's Not true. The majority of active editors on ar.wp live in the middle east. The largest single denomination of active editors are Egyptians living in Egypt. Which makes sense demographically since Egypt is the most populous Arab country. And the total number of editors actually living in the middle east is much larger than the number of editors (like me) living outside it. The main problem I see is that most of them do not involve themselves much in anything outside ar.wp (meta, elections, wikimania, etc), but it is definitely not a wikipedia maintained by diaspora as you suggest.
I'm also delighted to hint that in the wake of Wikimania and the connections it helped forge, some upcoming projects for Wikimedia Israel among Arab Israelis (who make about 20% of Israeli population) and with Palestinian organizations are now being discussed and considered. We're really keen on increasing the number of editors on Arab Wikipedia from among Israeli Arabs, whose socioeconomic, educational and political status in comparison to neighboring countries make us hopeful will indeed become active editors.
While I strongly support and appreciate the move to include more Arab-Israelis and some day maybe Palestinians in your outreach, I don't appreciate the last portion of the comment (and I am trying not to be offended by it). If it was based on your earlier assumption, like I said it is not correct.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:58, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, Having Wikimania during Ramadan will prevent people from attending. The dates for Wikimania next year are also likely during Ramadan.
One way of looking at the absence of the Muslim world is that in Alexandria there was a sizable group from Israel. In the end it is about taking the opportunity. The opportunity for most was there with the exception from for instance our Iranian friends who are expressly forbidden to come. Thanks, Gerard
2011/8/21 WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com
I flew home on Friday. Unfortunately I had been unable to find anyone capable of printing a Tshirt with "Do I look like the sort of person who packs my own luggage?", or at least not on a Tshirt in my size (walrus). And as promised I hadn't made a Wikimania CD.
It took me 40 minutes to get through security, check in and passport control, and unlike in Heathrow I didn't have to remove my shoes or belt, or even discard my water. After I said that I had received a gift while I was in Israel they were a little interested in my Wikimania bag, and I had to dig it out of my backpack and let it be cursorily inspected. Maybe next year we can make the bag from Hemp and include in it some sparklers or small fireworks for the closing party with perhaps a blade or some scissors for people wanting to customise their badges.
As one of those who argued against holding Wikimania in Israel, I must say that I was very impressed at how well the whole thing was done. I think that the organisers did a brilliant job, I liked the food, and they even had sufficient WiFi. The music at two of the parties was a bit loud for socialising, but that's probably me showing my age. However I don't think this was really a completely Global Wikimania. As some of us feared it would be, this was a Wikimania that largely missed the Muslim world. I don't think that this is the fault of the organisers, but clearly holding our annual conference in Israel during Ramadan was not the best way to encourage people from Islamic countries to attend. I hope that in future we can make sure that Wikimania is more inclusive than that.
WSC
2011/8/18 Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com
I don't suggest taking the train from Jerusalem to the airport - it takes a very long time - the train to Jerusalem is very slow and is more of a tourist attraction than anything else.
It's much, much easier to call a sherut taxi called Nesher which will pick you up from home/hotel and take you to the airport for NIS 58. No security process involved....
Harel
2011/8/17 KIZU Naoko aphaia@gmail.com
@ TLV T3 Departure floor
In addition to the previous mails, I'd recommend who plans railway trip to arrive your departure station enough earlier than your train, specially if you are in Jerusalem or perhaps a place easy-to-reach from the West Bank.
Security check at Malha Jerusalem Station would be as serious as at the airport. Though they keep being polite but the check on me took over 10 minutes. I was asked by two officers respectively to show them my passport, open every bag, what I bought in the Old City, and then again explain what almost each item in the bags was, and which places I had visited during my ongoing trip, specially in the West Bank, which Arab countries I had visited both in this particular trip and in the past and finally if I carried weapons. Finally they had me go through with smiles and best wishes on trip, so generally there was no problem at all, but if my schedule had been tight, it might have caused problems.
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Federico Leva (Nemo), 17/08/2011 08:59: >> PS: I didn't find them very good-looking either, like someone
claimed.
> > Uh? :-? By the way I agree, but looking at some of the lots of the > trainees the situation might improve in the future. :-p
Oh, and I forgot to say that one of them was also even drawing
(smilies
etc.) together with a traveler on her to-be-embarked laptop box.
Perhaps
she had enough books for her next layover.
Nemo
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Having Wikimania during Ramadan doesn't prevent people from attending. Out of memory, i can recall at least seven Muslim people, at least two of them from Israel, who attended Wikimania 2011. There were probably more. They had special requirements related to Islam and Ramadan and we fulfilled them. (Also, the driver of the tour bus on the Nazareth tour was Muslim and didn't eat or drink. It didn't seem like a big deal.)
That said, it is probably nice to try to plan Wikimania not to fall on the Ramadan, but it's far from being the biggest problem.
There was at least one person from Iran (strangely enough i didn't meet him myself, but other people on the team did). There were practicing Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews on Wikimania 2011, even though it fell on the [[The Three Weeks]]. At least two of them even attended some of the activities on Sabbath.
All in all, it is mostly a matter of motivation. Despite our best efforts, there were very few unfortunate cases when people didn't get visas or permits for Wikimania 2011 (not only from Muslim countries). Nearly all the people who asked to attend, did.
And please let me use this opportunity to personally salute the people who wanted to come and came in spite of the high cost, the political hurdles, the Israeli bureaucracy and their own country's bureaucracy. (The surprisingly weird bureaucracy of *commercial* travel agencies in some countries deserves its own parentheses.) This good kind of stubbornness is in our spirit.
2011/8/22 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Having Wikimania during Ramadan will prevent people from attending. The dates for Wikimania next year are also likely during Ramadan.
One way of looking at the absence of the Muslim world is that in Alexandria there was a sizable group from Israel. In the end it is about taking the opportunity. The opportunity for most was there with the exception from for instance our Iranian friends who are expressly forbidden to come. Thanks, Gerard
2011/8/21 WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com
I flew home on Friday. Unfortunately I had been unable to find anyone capable of printing a Tshirt with "Do I look like the sort of person who packs my own luggage?", or at least not on a Tshirt in my size (walrus). And as promised I hadn't made a Wikimania CD. It took me 40 minutes to get through security, check in and passport control, and unlike in Heathrow I didn't have to remove my shoes or belt, or even discard my water. After I said that I had received a gift while I was in Israel they were a little interested in my Wikimania bag, and I had to dig it out of my backpack and let it be cursorily inspected. Maybe next year we can make the bag from Hemp and include in it some sparklers or small fireworks for the closing party with perhaps a blade or some scissors for people wanting to customise their badges. As one of those who argued against holding Wikimania in Israel, I must say that I was very impressed at how well the whole thing was done. I think that the organisers did a brilliant job, I liked the food, and they even had sufficient WiFi. The music at two of the parties was a bit loud for socialising, but that's probably me showing my age. However I don't think this was really a completely Global Wikimania. As some of us feared it would be, this was a Wikimania that largely missed the Muslim world. I don't think that this is the fault of the organisers, but clearly holding our annual conference in Israel during Ramadan was not the best way to encourage people from Islamic countries to attend. I hope that in future we can make sure that Wikimania is more inclusive than that. WSC
2011/8/18 Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com
I don't suggest taking the train from Jerusalem to the airport - it takes a very long time - the train to Jerusalem is very slow and is more of a tourist attraction than anything else.
It's much, much easier to call a sherut taxi called Nesher which will pick you up from home/hotel and take you to the airport for NIS 58. No security process involved....
Harel
2011/8/17 KIZU Naoko aphaia@gmail.com
@ TLV T3 Departure floor
In addition to the previous mails, I'd recommend who plans railway trip to arrive your departure station enough earlier than your train, specially if you are in Jerusalem or perhaps a place easy-to-reach from the West Bank.
Security check at Malha Jerusalem Station would be as serious as at the airport. Though they keep being polite but the check on me took over 10 minutes. I was asked by two officers respectively to show them my passport, open every bag, what I bought in the Old City, and then again explain what almost each item in the bags was, and which places I had visited during my ongoing trip, specially in the West Bank, which Arab countries I had visited both in this particular trip and in the past and finally if I carried weapons. Finally they had me go through with smiles and best wishes on trip, so generally there was no problem at all, but if my schedule had been tight, it might have caused problems.
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Federico Leva (Nemo), 17/08/2011 08:59:
> PS: I didn't find them very good-looking either, like someone > claimed.
Uh? :-? By the way I agree, but looking at some of the lots of the trainees the situation might improve in the future. :-p
Oh, and I forgot to say that one of them was also even drawing (smilies etc.) together with a traveler on her to-be-embarked laptop box. Perhaps she had enough books for her next layover.
Nemo
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-- KIZU Naoko / 木津尚子 member of Wikimedians in Kansai / 関西ウィキメディアユーザ会 http://kansai.wikimedia.jp
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From: amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 11:51:22 +0300 To: wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] CD
Having Wikimania during Ramadan doesn't prevent people from attending.
Actually it does. Personally, Ramadhan was one of the reasons I did not attend Wikimania. This is because, I come from a school where during Ramadhan, I only attend half-day classes. Also, in most of the Middle East, and some Muslim-centric organisations, people work significantly less hours in the office. I honestly believe that getting a Muslim to attend a three full-day conference during Ramadan is difficult. //abbas.
Please remind Westerner friends, not only Muslims and Jews but also some parts of Christianity also observe Fasting either early- or mid-August, which is as severely observed as Great Lent before Pascha (Easter). East Christianity observes this summer fasting from August 1 to 15th, in honor of The Theotokos and her dormition, aka also Blessed Virgin Mary. On the other hand, however I didn't remember no Greek, no Serb, no Romanian or no Russian has complained the Wikimania conferences have been held in this season.
<POV> Personally it would be a challenge to decide how to observe the fasting while one attends principally festive events, but then the person he or she first counsel should their priests, neither the organizing team or fellow Wikimedians. It's quite personal things between the Lord and that person, even from friendly concern, with help of the church who is Corpus Christi herself and guided by the Holy Spirit, no other people can intervene.</POV>
I guess things might not be different upon our Jew or Muslim friends. Some has come, others not, and if I recall correctly no one has claimed the coincidental meeting of Ramadan and Wikimania. They have their tongue and wisdom, if they felt it unease, they could speak on their own behalf. I believe that our Muslim and Jew friends are not so weak as they need someone else criticize without asking for.
Last but not least I'd thank the organizing team specially for their kind treatment on Wednesday meals. Most of attendees might not have noticed, they had changed the catering plan of that day in last minutes, consequently which fulfilled Wednesday Fasting rule of Eastern Orthodox completely, if meals are rightly selected. As a person who was greatly helped by their attentive preparation to all addressed need, they did all their best, I would like to say.
Cheers,
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 5:51 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
Having Wikimania during Ramadan doesn't prevent people from attending. Out of memory, i can recall at least seven Muslim people, at least two of them from Israel, who attended Wikimania 2011. There were probably more. They had special requirements related to Islam and Ramadan and we fulfilled them. (Also, the driver of the tour bus on the Nazareth tour was Muslim and didn't eat or drink. It didn't seem like a big deal.)
That said, it is probably nice to try to plan Wikimania not to fall on the Ramadan, but it's far from being the biggest problem.
There was at least one person from Iran (strangely enough i didn't meet him myself, but other people on the team did). There were practicing Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews on Wikimania 2011, even though it fell on the [[The Three Weeks]]. At least two of them even attended some of the activities on Sabbath.
All in all, it is mostly a matter of motivation. Despite our best efforts, there were very few unfortunate cases when people didn't get visas or permits for Wikimania 2011 (not only from Muslim countries). Nearly all the people who asked to attend, did.
And please let me use this opportunity to personally salute the people who wanted to come and came in spite of the high cost, the political hurdles, the Israeli bureaucracy and their own country's bureaucracy. (The surprisingly weird bureaucracy of *commercial* travel agencies in some countries deserves its own parentheses.) This good kind of stubbornness is in our spirit.
2011/8/22 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Having Wikimania during Ramadan will prevent people from attending. The dates for Wikimania next year are also likely during Ramadan.
One way of looking at the absence of the Muslim world is that in Alexandria there was a sizable group from Israel. In the end it is about taking the opportunity. The opportunity for most was there with the exception from for instance our Iranian friends who are expressly forbidden to come. Thanks, Gerard
2011/8/21 WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com
I flew home on Friday. Unfortunately I had been unable to find anyone capable of printing a Tshirt with "Do I look like the sort of person who packs my own luggage?", or at least not on a Tshirt in my size (walrus). And as promised I hadn't made a Wikimania CD. It took me 40 minutes to get through security, check in and passport control, and unlike in Heathrow I didn't have to remove my shoes or belt, or even discard my water. After I said that I had received a gift while I was in Israel they were a little interested in my Wikimania bag, and I had to dig it out of my backpack and let it be cursorily inspected. Maybe next year we can make the bag from Hemp and include in it some sparklers or small fireworks for the closing party with perhaps a blade or some scissors for people wanting to customise their badges. As one of those who argued against holding Wikimania in Israel, I must say that I was very impressed at how well the whole thing was done. I think that the organisers did a brilliant job, I liked the food, and they even had sufficient WiFi. The music at two of the parties was a bit loud for socialising, but that's probably me showing my age. However I don't think this was really a completely Global Wikimania. As some of us feared it would be, this was a Wikimania that largely missed the Muslim world. I don't think that this is the fault of the organisers, but clearly holding our annual conference in Israel during Ramadan was not the best way to encourage people from Islamic countries to attend. I hope that in future we can make sure that Wikimania is more inclusive than that. WSC
2011/8/18 Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com
I don't suggest taking the train from Jerusalem to the airport - it takes a very long time - the train to Jerusalem is very slow and is more of a tourist attraction than anything else.
It's much, much easier to call a sherut taxi called Nesher which will pick you up from home/hotel and take you to the airport for NIS 58. No security process involved....
Harel
2011/8/17 KIZU Naoko aphaia@gmail.com
@ TLV T3 Departure floor
In addition to the previous mails, I'd recommend who plans railway trip to arrive your departure station enough earlier than your train, specially if you are in Jerusalem or perhaps a place easy-to-reach from the West Bank.
Security check at Malha Jerusalem Station would be as serious as at the airport. Though they keep being polite but the check on me took over 10 minutes. I was asked by two officers respectively to show them my passport, open every bag, what I bought in the Old City, and then again explain what almost each item in the bags was, and which places I had visited during my ongoing trip, specially in the West Bank, which Arab countries I had visited both in this particular trip and in the past and finally if I carried weapons. Finally they had me go through with smiles and best wishes on trip, so generally there was no problem at all, but if my schedule had been tight, it might have caused problems.
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Federico Leva (Nemo), 17/08/2011 08:59: >> PS: I didn't find them very good-looking either, like someone >> claimed. > > Uh? :-? By the way I agree, but looking at some of the lots of the > trainees the situation might improve in the future. :-p
Oh, and I forgot to say that one of them was also even drawing (smilies etc.) together with a traveler on her to-be-embarked laptop box. Perhaps she had enough books for her next layover.
Nemo
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-- KIZU Naoko / 木津尚子 member of Wikimedians in Kansai / 関西ウィキメディアユーザ会 http://kansai.wikimedia.jp
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-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
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On 08/23/2011 09:14 AM, KIZU Naoko wrote:
I guess things might not be different upon our Jew or Muslim friends. Some has come, others not, and if I recall correctly no one has claimed the coincidental meeting of Ramadan and Wikimania. They have their tongue and wisdom, if they felt it unease, they could speak on their own behalf. I believe that our Muslim and Jew friends are not so weak as they need someone else criticize without asking for.
Affected people might not be on this list, because this is a Wikimania list. People who decided not to come to Wikimania because of this scheduling issue would, quite reasonably, decide not to subscribe to this list. :-)
And I think it's fine to speak up on behalf of someone else, or in addition to him or her. To speak up as an ally does not imply that a marginalized population is "weak"; rather, it makes clear that the entire community cares about the issue.
For 2012 and future Wikimanias I'm gathering this information on these holidays that might overlap with Wikimanias in the summer.
From this conversation I saw the view expressed that with Ramadan it's better to avoid overlap (as the 2012 dates do) and if there is an overlap there are some (not yet specified) actions to make it easier on observant attendees. For some, Ramadan means avoiding daytime food/drink/music/films it seems. Got it.
Regarding [[The Three Weeks]] and the Orthodox fasting period below I'm not getting a sense that there is a specific benefit from avoiding an overlap, or what actions the conference organizers should take if an overlap is going to happen.
If any of you have other specific action-oriented advice on what organizers should DO about potential overlaps, which has not already been expressed in the emails, please email me. (or post to the whole list, but the topic may have exhausted the interest of others).
We can't do all things perfectly but we can develop a list of the holiday conflicts and your collective advice about managing them in advance of facing the problem again.
Thanks to Haifa team for trying hard and making such a good conference! -- peter
________________________________ From: KIZU Naoko aphaia@gmail.com To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] CD
Please remind Westerner friends, not only Muslims and Jews but also some parts of Christianity also observe Fasting either early- or mid-August, which is as severely observed as Great Lent before Pascha (Easter). East Christianity observes this summer fasting from August 1 to 15th, in honor of The Theotokos and her dormition, aka also Blessed Virgin Mary. On the other hand, however I didn't remember no Greek, no Serb, no Romanian or no Russian has complained the Wikimania conferences have been held in this season.
<POV> Personally it would be a challenge to decide how to observe the fasting while one attends principally festive events, but then the person he or she first counsel should their priests, neither the organizing team or fellow Wikimedians. It's quite personal things between the Lord and that person, even from friendly concern, with help of the church who is Corpus Christi herself and guided by the Holy Spirit, no other people can intervene.</POV>
I guess things might not be different upon our Jew or Muslim friends. Some has come, others not, and if I recall correctly no one has claimed the coincidental meeting of Ramadan and Wikimania. They have their tongue and wisdom, if they felt it unease, they could speak on their own behalf. I believe that our Muslim and Jew friends are not so weak as they need someone else criticize without asking for.
Last but not least I'd thank the organizing team specially for their kind treatment on Wednesday meals. Most of attendees might not have noticed, they had changed the catering plan of that day in last minutes, consequently which fulfilled Wednesday Fasting rule of Eastern Orthodox completely, if meals are rightly selected. As a person who was greatly helped by their attentive preparation to all addressed need, they did all their best, I would like to say.
Cheers,
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 5:51 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
Having Wikimania during Ramadan doesn't prevent people from attending. Out of memory, i can recall at least seven Muslim people, at least two of them from Israel, who attended Wikimania 2011. There were probably more. They had special requirements related to Islam and Ramadan and we fulfilled them. (Also, the driver of the tour bus on the Nazareth tour was Muslim and didn't eat or drink. It didn't seem like a big deal.)
That said, it is probably nice to try to plan Wikimania not to fall on the Ramadan, but it's far from being the biggest problem.
There was at least
one person from Iran (strangely enough i didn't
meet him myself, but other people on the team did). There were practicing Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews on Wikimania 2011, even though it fell on the [[The Three Weeks]]. At least two of them even attended some of the activities on Sabbath.
All in all, it is mostly a matter of motivation. Despite our best efforts, there were very few unfortunate cases when people didn't get visas or permits for Wikimania 2011 (not only from Muslim countries). Nearly all the people who asked to attend, did.
And please let me use this opportunity to personally salute the people who wanted to come and came in spite of the high cost, the political hurdles, the Israeli bureaucracy and their own country's bureaucracy. (The surprisingly weird bureaucracy of *commercial* travel agencies in some countries
deserves its own parentheses.) This good kind of
stubbornness is in our spirit.
2011/8/22 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Having Wikimania during Ramadan will prevent people from attending. The dates for Wikimania next year are also likely during Ramadan.
One way of looking at the absence of the Muslim world is that in Alexandria there was a sizable group from Israel. In the end it is about taking the opportunity. The opportunity for most was there with the exception from for instance our Iranian friends who are expressly forbidden to come. Thanks, Gerard
2011/8/21 WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com
. . . . . However I don't think this was really a completely Global Wikimania. As some of us feared it would be, this was a Wikimania that largely missed the Muslim world. I don't think that this is the fault of the organisers, but clearly holding our annual conference in Israel during Ramadan was not the best
way to encourage people
from Islamic countries to attend. I hope that in future we can make sure that Wikimania is more inclusive than that. WSC
2011/8/24 Peter Meyer pbmeyer22202@yahoo.com
Regarding [[The Three Weeks]] and the Orthodox fasting period below I'm not getting a sense that there is a specific benefit from avoiding an overlap, or what actions the conference organizers should take if an overlap is going to happen.
As the Haifa conference proved, if is not very important to avoid [[The Three Weeks]] entirely. However, practicing Orthodox Jews would appreciate if it wouldn't fall on [[Tisha B'Av]], the last day of The Three Weeks.
(Orthodox Jews would also appreciate if it wouldn't be on Saturday, but everybody understands that it's not practical.)
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
(Orthodox Jews would also appreciate if it wouldn't be on Saturday, but everybody understands that it's not practical.)
Same might go with Eastern Orthodox. Regretfully I had no copy at hand but I'd like to cite from Bishop Kalistos Ware, in his short essay "On Fasting", he begins (recalling memory) as follows: there is no written set rules on Fasting, the Tradition and Holy Fathers have agreed etc.". Also priesthood have been recommended to consider oikonomia (original Greek word of economy) of each observant, boldly in other word practicality, the exact fasting rules therefore may vary from person to person under instruction of their priests. Shortly there is no general rules, the Orthodox hierarchy have agreed for centuries. The efforts of the organizer team is awesome, but Wikimania is no religious event anyway? Let us focus on our own mission, which is not bind to any religious rules in principal.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Without adding too much to what Harel wrote, (1) Wikimania 2009 was held also during Ramadan (don't know about 2010, hadn't been there). (2) Wikimania 2012 was the largest Wikimania until now (720 people) and probably most widely (56 countries). So you can say it haven't been global. And you need to remember - as the conference every year held in a different county, who need to bring volunteers and not foreign affairs minister or other people with diplomatic passport, it will never been 100% global (maybe on Switzerland).
Itzik
2011/8/22 WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com
I flew home on Friday. Unfortunately I had been unable to find anyone capable of printing a Tshirt with "Do I look like the sort of person who packs my own luggage?", or at least not on a Tshirt in my size (walrus). And as promised I hadn't made a Wikimania CD.
It took me 40 minutes to get through security, check in and passport control, and unlike in Heathrow I didn't have to remove my shoes or belt, or even discard my water. After I said that I had received a gift while I was in Israel they were a little interested in my Wikimania bag, and I had to dig it out of my backpack and let it be cursorily inspected. Maybe next year we can make the bag from Hemp and include in it some sparklers or small fireworks for the closing party with perhaps a blade or some scissors for people wanting to customise their badges.
As one of those who argued against holding Wikimania in Israel, I must say that I was very impressed at how well the whole thing was done. I think that the organisers did a brilliant job, I liked the food, and they even had sufficient WiFi. The music at two of the parties was a bit loud for socialising, but that's probably me showing my age. However I don't think this was really a completely Global Wikimania. As some of us feared it would be, this was a Wikimania that largely missed the Muslim world. I don't think that this is the fault of the organisers, but clearly holding our annual conference in Israel during Ramadan was not the best way to encourage people from Islamic countries to attend. I hope that in future we can make sure that Wikimania is more inclusive than that.
WSC
2011/8/18 Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com
I don't suggest taking the train from Jerusalem to the airport - it takes a very long time - the train to Jerusalem is very slow and is more of a tourist attraction than anything else.
It's much, much easier to call a sherut taxi called Nesher which will pick you up from home/hotel and take you to the airport for NIS 58. No security process involved....
Harel
2011/8/17 KIZU Naoko aphaia@gmail.com
@ TLV T3 Departure floor
In addition to the previous mails, I'd recommend who plans railway trip to arrive your departure station enough earlier than your train, specially if you are in Jerusalem or perhaps a place easy-to-reach from the West Bank.
Security check at Malha Jerusalem Station would be as serious as at the airport. Though they keep being polite but the check on me took over 10 minutes. I was asked by two officers respectively to show them my passport, open every bag, what I bought in the Old City, and then again explain what almost each item in the bags was, and which places I had visited during my ongoing trip, specially in the West Bank, which Arab countries I had visited both in this particular trip and in the past and finally if I carried weapons. Finally they had me go through with smiles and best wishes on trip, so generally there was no problem at all, but if my schedule had been tight, it might have caused problems.
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Federico Leva (Nemo), 17/08/2011 08:59:
PS: I didn't find them very good-looking either, like someone
claimed.
Uh? :-? By the way I agree, but looking at some of the lots of the trainees the situation might improve in the future. :-p
Oh, and I forgot to say that one of them was also even drawing (smilies etc.) together with a traveler on her to-be-embarked laptop box.
Perhaps
she had enough books for her next layover.
Nemo
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-- KIZU Naoko / 木津尚子 member of Wikimedians in Kansai / 関西ウィキメディアユーザ会 http://kansai.wikimedia.jp
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-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
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On 22.08.2011 14:18, Itzik Edri wrote:
Without adding too much to what Harel wrote, (1) Wikimania 2009 was held also during Ramadan (don't know about 2010, hadn't been there). (2) Wikimania 2012 was the largest Wikimania until now (720 people) and probably most widely (56 countries). So you can say it haven't been global. And you need to remember - as the conference every year held in a different county, who need to bring volunteers and not foreign affairs minister or other people with diplomatic passport, it will never been 100% global (maybe on Switzerland).
I am afraid that not even then - Switzerland is part of Schengen now and has always been very restrictive.
It needs to protect its wealth, cheese and chocolade ;-)
/Manuel
Shalom / Assalam from Jerusalem,
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
We at Wikimedia Israel are not ignoring the stories told on this thread, actually we're taking them very much to heart.
We are now considering a strong letter of complaint to various government agencies and a demand for formal written apology. Details will follow once we have decided on our course of action.
It's very much thoughtful and kind of you. I hope also the other still around may not have such troubles mentioned.
Harel Cain Secretary, Wikimedia Israel
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:07, James Hare messedrocker@gmail.com wrote:
On Aug 11, 2011, at 9:49 AM, "church.of.emacs.ml" church.of.emacs.ml@googlemail.com wrote:
On 08/10/2011 06:05 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
[…]
In both cases I was traveling alone. And in both cases I was myself, a US citizen whose parents and name and skin color came from South Asia. I can't pass as anything else.
This is simply racism and harassment. There can be no excuse for that kind of treatment. If this is the way even a citizen of the western world is treated, I can understand very well why there were (almost?) no members of the Arab world in Israel.
I find it regrettable that next Wikimania is going to be in Washington D.C. Airport harassment might not be as severe as in Israel, but perhaps severe enough so that Arab Wikimedians are prevented or discouraged from attending.
Don't get me wrong, Wikimania in Israel was fantastic and D.C. will probably be, too, but we have to focus more on accessibility for *all* Wikimedians.
Regards, Tobias
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While no one has the power to exempt anyone from security checks (in fact, whenever former Secretary of State Colin Powell travels, he gets the full check to show that everyone has to follow the rules), we can coordinate with TSA, tell them about our conference (including how tech-oriented some of the attendees are), and ask them for advice to make the security check process as simple as possible. My impression, though, is that while Israeli security focuses on you as a person, TSA mostly focuses on your stuff. Follow all their rules (take out laptop for separate x-ray scan, only small bottles of liquid, etc.) and I think you will be fine, but unfortunately I only have the perspective of a white US citizen.
I actually think the bigger obstacle will be obtaining a visa, for those who don't live in visa exempt countries. As mentioned earlier, we will do everything in our power to make the process easier; we will even be looking into visa scholarships. It helps that the US State Department knows what Wikipedia is and that they have sent people to two Wikimanias, 2006 and 2011.
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-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
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2011/8/11 James Hare messedrocker@gmail.com:
On Aug 11, 2011, at 9:49 AM, "church.of.emacs.ml" church.of.emacs.ml@googlemail.com wrote:
While no one has the power to exempt anyone from security checks (in fact, whenever former Secretary of State Colin Powell travels, he gets the full check to show that everyone has to follow the rules), we can coordinate with TSA, tell them about our conference (including how tech-oriented some of the attendees are), and ask them for advice to make the security check process as simple as possible. My impression, though, is that while Israeli security focuses on you as a person, TSA mostly focuses on your stuff. Follow all their rules (take out laptop for separate x-ray scan, only small bottles of liquid, etc.) and I think you will be fine, but unfortunately I only have the perspective of a white US citizen.
I actually think the bigger obstacle will be obtaining a visa, for those who don't live in visa exempt countries. As mentioned earlier, we will do everything in our power to make the process easier; we will even be looking into visa scholarships. It helps that the US State Department knows what Wikipedia is and that they have sent people to two Wikimanias, 2006 and 2011.
When entering to US via LAX airport in 2008 for scientific conference, TSA authorities decided for some reasons that I am a susspicous person and put me to something similar to a police station, where I had to wait for around 2 hours after which I was interrogated by an officer who asked me several personal questions (about family and religous background, what I did in US before, the reasons of entering, if I have credit card what is max. credit on it etc..). Anyway although not that bad as Isreal border control it was also not very nice experience :-)
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 9:05 AM, Sumana Harihareswara sumanah@wikimedia.org wrote: <snip>
An agent asked me, at the Tel Aviv airport, what community or congregation I belonged to. I didn't understand at first, and my first thought was, "the free software community, I guess?" The community that congregates at Wikimania, that I'd come to Haifa to celebrate.
This is my favorite quote from this thread :) I feel similarly.
I had a conversation with a dear friend near the end of Wikimania that went something like this: - "It is terrible that preemptive travel security screening is so often demeaning and inefficient; it seems like there has to be a better way." - "And a way that doesn't perpetuate a culture of fear and racism" - "Well, if we really wanted to find a distributed global solution we could unleash 1,000 Wikimedians on the problem."
:-)
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:05 PM, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
Serious suggestion for the future, amongst the many criteria we use to judge bids for Wikimania we not only need to add "Who isn't allowed to go there or wouldn't be allowed in" but also something about the attitudes of the authorities.
Wikimania is educational for many reasons -- not least it is always an education in international travel restrictions and travails. There is no question that it difficult for many people to come to the US, and those who do are often subject to some pretty serious screening -- we learned this in 2006. The other thing that we've learned in the last 8 years is that there are few to no countries that are as open as we would like to visitors from all parts of the world. Some are more open than others, but everywhere has problems. So we can make the "is the country open?" criteria that we use more fine-grained; but I think the answer is 90% of the time "it depends" and "for who?" (Look at, for instance, the hugely varied responses on this thread.) But, you are right that there is a gulf between "is it possible to enter?" and "it is possible, but you'll probably be strip-searched for three hours and have heaps of paperwork."
NB: it would be super if comments on the judging criteria could also be put on the talk page for 2013: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2013/Judging_criteria this will help the future jury as they review the criteria for next time.
I think as we plan we can take what we've learned and continue to iterate best practice [visa support, etc]; in this area we should also make more of an effort to learn from other seriously international conferences. I would love to someday see our attendee list break the 100-country mark.
best, phoebe
On 11-08-11 01:34 PM, phoebe ayers wrote:
- "Well, if we really wanted to find a distributed global solution we
could unleash 1,000 Wikimedians on the problem."
Heh. They'd come up with 17 alternatives that vary only in insignificant details, all of which could probably alleviate the problem, none of which will reach the ever mythical consensus. :-)
-- Coren / Marc
Katie, You look too innocent ;) Jerry's hand luggage was hand-searched throughout and his two USB rechargeable power hubs were confiscated. Deryck On Aug 10, 2011 7:51 AM, "aude" aude.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
On Aug 9, 2011, at 2:42 PM, Roan Kattouw roan.kattouw@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 8:12 PM, maarten deneckere maartendeneckere+wikimania@gmail.com wrote:
Btw, make sure you have something with you with the logo of the conference, to prove you attended it.
+1. I had the feeling Timo and I had an easier time at TLV because I wore the Wikimania 2011 t-shirt. One security person recognized it immediately, another asked which conference we'd attended and I could just point to my chest and say 'that one'.
Short of the t-shirt, the lanyard helps too, of course.
I used my Wikimania bag as a carry on item with the logo clearly visible.
No one asked me any questions whatsoever at TLV. They just stamped my passport!
Nor did anyone scrutinize or care about any of my electronic items (GPS, laptop, ...) or ask me to turn them on. They just put them through x-Ray and swab tested stuff. They also didn't care about my Arabic language reading materials that I take on the plane. :)
Aude
Roan Kattouw (Catrope)
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Am 09.08.2011 19:48, schrieb James Hare:
On Aug 9, 2011, at 7:06 PM, Deryck Chan deryckchan@gmail.com wrote:
PS. For those of you who have yet to fly out of Israel: it's a good idea to have a password / Android lock etc. on each of your electronic devices, so that they can't check their content except in front of you.
I don't know anything about a Wikimania CD, but I do have a security related question. I brought a USB flash drive with me, since I usually keep one handy. Yet there is no way for me to plug it into my computer to verify it's a flash drive because I didn't bring a computer in the conventional sense (I brought my iPad which has no USB port, sadly). Will this be an issue?
I had a USB flash drive with me, no questions asked.
In general don't suspect too much ;-) I had the "luck" to be selected twice, after x-raying my luggage prior to check-in and at the normal security check for hand-luggage.
Both times they extremely carefully checked everything I had in my luggage, two persons with this special cloth wiping aover everything I had. It took some time (ca. 10 minutes each) but no problem at all.
They wanted me to open my computer, OLPC and mobile phone but only so they could wipe all the surfaces. They never requested anything to be switched on. I am pretty sure that they are in no way interested in any data I have with me.
I was interviewed thoroughly because I had those stamps from Jordan in my passport. Why I went there, when, how long, what I did there, where I stayed, if I knew somebody there. Answered that easily, no problem at all.
I was there 2 hours prior to my flight (flight was at 11:55, I arrived at 9:45 but had to take the shuttle to Terminal 1, so I arrived there at 10:00) and still had more than 30 minutes left - even though I needed two shuttles between Terminal 1 and 3 and the two sepcial interrogations.
So don't worry ;-)
/Manuel
On 08/09/2011 06:06 PM, Deryck Chan wrote:
PS. For those of you who have yet to fly out of Israel: it's a good idea to have a password / Android lock etc. on each of your electronic devices, so that they can't check their content except in front of you.
Probably already to late, but since it might be relevant for next years Wikimania as well: One way to protect data is to create a hidden truecrypt volume. That means that inside of an encrypted partition – which contains some harmless stuff one would want to hide (softporn or whatever seems plausible) – there is another encrypted partition with the real data.
When an airport security officer demands you decrypt your encrypted partition, you just use the password of the harmless partition and thus protect your real data.
http://www.truecrypt.org http://www.truecrypt.org/docs/hidden-volume
However, it's even safer not to bring any laptop/data with you ;-)
Regards, Tobias
Who told the security staff at Ben Gurion that CDs have been distributed as part of the welcoming pack of Wikimania? Jeromy and I were requested to show the "CD you received from Wikimania" and we haven't got any.
One of the psychological techniques used by the security agencies is to explicitly ask for something not true and wait for denial. The truth (whether there were CDs or not) is not really relevant to this question - it's how you react. Probably you are suspicious if you answer 100% questions correctly and without any hesitation. Those interviews shouldn't be treated like a school test - it's not about getting as much correct answers as possible.
For an example of a successful use of this technique, see Stanley Kubrick's movie "Eyes Wide Shut", the scene during the party at the manor (not recommended for people sensitive about explicit scenes, usual disclaimers apply).
//Marcin
All credit goes to Arthur Schnitzler and his beautiful novella "Traumnovelle", on which Kubrick's movie is based.
It never ceases to amaze me what a huge diffrence between the treatment that visitors and locals get at TLV. Even though I fly out quite often, for many years now my longest questioning was maybe 2 minutes, and my luggage was not manually searched at all.
Harel
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 22:04, Marcin Cieslak saper@saper.info wrote:
Who told the security staff at Ben Gurion that CDs have been distributed
as
part of the welcoming pack of Wikimania? Jeromy and I were requested to
show
the "CD you received from Wikimania" and we haven't got any.
One of the psychological techniques used by the security agencies is to explicitly ask for something not true and wait for denial. The truth (whether there were CDs or not) is not really relevant to this question
- it's how you react. Probably you are suspicious if you answer 100%
questions correctly and without any hesitation. Those interviews shouldn't be treated like a school test - it's not about getting as much correct answers as possible.
For an example of a successful use of this technique, see Stanley Kubrick's movie "Eyes Wide Shut", the scene during the party at the manor (not recommended for people sensitive about explicit scenes, usual disclaimers apply).
//Marcin
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On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
All credit goes to Arthur Schnitzler and his beautiful novella "Traumnovelle", on which Kubrick's movie is based.
It never ceases to amaze me what a huge diffrence between the treatment that visitors and locals get at TLV. Even though I fly out quite often, for many years now my longest questioning was maybe 2 minutes, and my luggage was not manually searched at all.
Harel
It doesn't seem amazing at all to me that El Al invests less suspicion in Jewish citizens of Israel, but that's just me :P
I'm in Jerusalem for a few more days, can anyone suggest how I can obtain one of these Wikimania CDs or what it could contain?
WereSpielChequers
On 9 August 2011 20:22, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
All credit goes to Arthur Schnitzler and his beautiful novella "Traumnovelle", on which Kubrick's movie is based.
It never ceases to amaze me what a huge diffrence between the treatment that visitors and locals get at TLV. Even though I fly out quite often, for many years now my longest questioning was maybe 2 minutes, and my luggage was not manually searched at all.
Harel
It doesn't seem amazing at all to me that El Al invests less suspicion in Jewish citizens of Israel, but that's just me :P
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Hi WereSpielChequers ,
Op 9-8-2011 22:37, WereSpielChequers schreef:
I'm in Jerusalem for a few more days, can anyone suggest how I can obtain one of these Wikimania CDs or what it could contain?
LOL, I guess you didn't read the whole thread. This is just a trick question. Just like asking the same question twice in the same interview to see if your answer is the same. Just be honest and enjoy the ride. In most countries security guards are grumpy old men, here you have friendly young men and women.
Maarten
Ps. Do we have a Wikipedia article about the interview techniques used?
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 9:54 PM, Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl wrote:
Hi WereSpielChequers ,
Op 9-8-2011 22:37, WereSpielChequers schreef:
I'm in Jerusalem for a few more days, can anyone suggest how I can obtain one of these Wikimania CDs or what it could contain?
LOL, I guess you didn't read the whole thread. This is just a trick question. Just like asking the same question twice in the same interview to see if your answer is the same. Just be honest and enjoy the ride. In most countries security guards are grumpy old men, here you have friendly young men and women.
True, and efficient too. I loved the way the woman who flipped through my passport never paused while doing it, handed me my passport back and asked me: "And what were you doing in Tunis and in Egypt?" (I have about 20 other stamps on my passport...).
:)
Delphine
I would suggest that it's not about "the CD" itself, but anything to prove your attendance at the conference you said you went to. So, keep your attendee badge easily available. The conference bag, the printed schedule or other things that you picked up at Wikimania would be good. Just a suggestion, -Liam
On 10/08/2011, at 5:37, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
I'm in Jerusalem for a few more days, can anyone suggest how I can obtain one of these Wikimania CDs or what it could contain?
WereSpielChequers
On 9 August 2011 20:22, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
All credit goes to Arthur Schnitzler and his beautiful novella "Traumnovelle", on which Kubrick's movie is based.
It never ceases to amaze me what a huge diffrence between the treatment that visitors and locals get at TLV. Even though I fly out quite often, for many years now my longest questioning was maybe 2 minutes, and my luggage was not manually searched at all.
Harel
It doesn't seem amazing at all to me that El Al invests less suspicion in Jewish citizens of Israel, but that's just me :P
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I'll see if I can find an Internet Cafe that burns backups to CD. Last time I went backpacking in New Zealand there were several places with that sort of service. Then if I slap one of those stickers in the centre it should look the ticket.
Do you think if I tell them that Walla interviewed me about my abolishing the Olympic Sport of synchronised ventriloquism they might give me a Hebrew translation of the article? And should I get a printout of http://news.walla.co.il/?w=%2F4007%2F1847793 or just give them the link?
WSC
On 10 August 2011 08:47, Liam Wyatt liamwyatt@gmail.com wrote:
I would suggest that it's not about "the CD" itself, but anything to prove your attendance at the conference you said you went to. So, keep your attendee badge easily available. The conference bag, the printed schedule or other things that you picked up at Wikimania would be good. Just a suggestion, -Liam
On 10/08/2011, at 5:37, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
I'm in Jerusalem for a few more days, can anyone suggest how I can obtain one of these Wikimania CDs or what it could contain?
WereSpielChequers
I was not asked for a CD, but when I showed the 3-4 pages printed on purpose to confirm my attendance, I was told I should have received another document for the security. I just said "no, I did not".
When asked about my Egypt stamp, my answer was straight "Wikipedia, annual conference each time in a different city (I listed them), this year in Haifa. Great time".
When asked why attending this conference was of any interest to me, I answered sweetly that I was a speaker. I felt that they liked this answer ;)
I entered the airport at the same time than Teemu. We went through the same procedure, in particular a different security line for the hand-luggage (with no queue... contrariwise to others). They had a special system for electronic gear. It felt as if their checking gate was more modern and giving finer results than the regular one. 3 years ago, I had this security person telling me that my laptop was a fake because I could not start Internet Explorer. This year, the lady asked me whether my (11 inch book air) laptop was actually a laptop or a ipad. It was put in a special padded box for scanning.
In an hour, we were all set.
However, other French people did not have the same luck. After 3 hours of control, items were confiscated, some with a ticket receipt, some without anything. Staff in Paris airport said it was unlikely it would be recovered. Another wikipedian mentionned "behind the curtains" search.
No bad ill toward the really wonderful organizers of Wikimania (you really rocked !), but to me, this behavior at borders security goes beyond what I consider acceptable. Even if it has no obvious outcome, I would really like that those who had bad experience report it either to their embassy or to Israel officials. Somehow, I think that a 3 hours check, with body search and confiscation of items, for citizens who show really no sign of being dangerous for the State of Israel and which are leaving the country (not entering it) and doing so in non-Israelian flight companies, is simply not respectful of human rights. And as any situation of abuse, just trying to go under the radar and regretting that it went so bad, is passively accepting what is not okay is giving the wrong message and calling for further abuse.
Florence
On 8/10/11 9:47 AM, Liam Wyatt wrote:
I would suggest that it's not about "the CD" itself, but anything to prove your attendance at the conference you said you went to. So, keep your attendee badge easily available. The conference bag, the printed schedule or other things that you picked up at Wikimania would be good. Just a suggestion, -Liam
On 10/08/2011, at 5:37, WereSpielChequerswerespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
I'm in Jerusalem for a few more days, can anyone suggest how I can obtain one of these Wikimania CDs or what it could contain?
WereSpielChequers
On 9 August 2011 20:22, Nathannawrich@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Harel Cainharel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
All credit goes to Arthur Schnitzler and his beautiful novella "Traumnovelle", on which Kubrick's movie is based.
It never ceases to amaze me what a huge diffrence between the treatment that visitors and locals get at TLV. Even though I fly out quite often, for many years now my longest questioning was maybe 2 minutes, and my luggage was not manually searched at all.
Harel
It doesn't seem amazing at all to me that El Al invests less suspicion in Jewish citizens of Israel, but that's just me :P
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10.08.2011, 14:35, "Florence Devouard" anthere@anthere.org:
No bad ill toward the really wonderful organizers of Wikimania (you really rocked !), but to me, this behavior at borders security goes beyond what I consider acceptable. Even if it has no obvious outcome, I would really like that those who had bad experience report it either to their embassy or to Israel officials. Somehow, I think that a 3 hours check, with body search and confiscation of items, for citizens who show really no sign of being dangerous for the State of Israel and which are leaving the country (not entering it) and doing so in non-Israelian flight companies, is simply not respectful of human rights.
That might be put in other words — like not respecting the local situation and local standard procedures.
Being thoroughly checked twice both at entrance and at the departure, I never felt even slightly enoyed by that. It's another country, another situation, we are not even slightly capable to understand fully.
The world is not everywhere like it is in Schengen. And, btw, at least in Israel they didn't took my fingerprints as they did a couple of years on the border of Finland (the only place on Earth having my fingerprints now).
Viatcheslav / User:Amikeco http://amikeco.ru
It seems pretty clear that all had different experiences. I had problems in Ben-Gurion because of my name (It's not Arab, it's German! look at Wikipedia!) so I had to be almost one hour in each security control. They confiscated my shaving machine and the people of my local airline (LAN) is trying to recover. Dennis, the other Chilean, had his notebook confiscated because its hard drive wasn't working (he had a problem at Wikimania).
It was funny that in the first control, they were asking me a lot of things. And then when they asked me why I attended Wikimania and I say I was the president of Wikimedia Chile, they stopped asking questions and "released" me. Finally something good about having a Board position :P
2011/8/10 Иванов Вячеслав v.ivanov@amikeco.ru
10.08.2011, 14:35, "Florence Devouard" anthere@anthere.org:
No bad ill toward the really wonderful organizers of Wikimania (you really rocked !), but to me, this behavior at borders security goes beyond what I consider acceptable. Even if it has no obvious outcome, I would really like that those who had bad experience report it either to their embassy or to Israel officials. Somehow, I think that a 3 hours check, with body search and confiscation of items, for citizens who show really no sign of being dangerous for the State of Israel and which are leaving the country (not entering it) and doing so in non-Israelian flight companies, is simply not respectful of human rights.
That might be put in other words — like not respecting the local situation and local standard procedures.
Being thoroughly checked twice both at entrance and at the departure, I never felt even slightly enoyed by that. It's another country, another situation, we are not even slightly capable to understand fully.
The world is not everywhere like it is in Schengen. And, btw, at least in Israel they didn't took my fingerprints as they did a couple of years on the border of Finland (the only place on Earth having my fingerprints now).
Viatcheslav / User:Amikeco http://amikeco.ru
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On 8/10/11 7:52 PM, Иванов Вячеслав wrote:
10.08.2011, 14:35, "Florence Devouard"anthere@anthere.org:
No bad ill toward the really wonderful organizers of Wikimania (you really rocked !), but to me, this behavior at borders security goes beyond what I consider acceptable. Even if it has no obvious outcome, I would really like that those who had bad experience report it either to their embassy or to Israel officials. Somehow, I think that a 3 hours check, with body search and confiscation of items, for citizens who show really no sign of being dangerous for the State of Israel and which are leaving the country (not entering it) and doing so in non-Israelian flight companies, is simply not respectful of human rights.
That might be put in other words — like not respecting the local situation and local standard procedures.
If local standard procedures involve stealing people property, I would not say this deserve any respect. Stealing is stealing. In any country.
Florence
Being thoroughly checked twice both at entrance and at the departure, I never felt even slightly enoyed by that. It's another country, another situation, we are not even slightly capable to understand fully.
The world is not everywhere like it is in Schengen. And, btw, at least in Israel they didn't took my fingerprints as they did a couple of years on the border of Finland (the only place on Earth having my fingerprints now).
Viatcheslav / User:Amikeco http://amikeco.ru
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On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Florence Devouard anthere@anthere.org wrote:
If local standard procedures involve stealing people property, I would not say this deserve any respect. Stealing is stealing. In any country.
Florence
"Stealing" is a pretty harsh term. Air travel security arrangements vary by country, but virtually every country authorizes its security personnel to confiscate items under certain circumstances. You can probably imagine why Israel might have stronger security measures than other countries.
On Aug 10, 2011, at 3:20 PM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Florence Devouard <anthere@anthere.org
wrote:
If local standard procedures involve stealing people property, I would not say this deserve any respect. Stealing is stealing. In any country.
Florence
"Stealing" is a pretty harsh term. Air travel security arrangements vary by country, but virtually every country authorizes its security personnel to confiscate items under certain circumstances. You can probably imagine why Israel might have stronger security measures than other countries.
They never confiscated anything of mine, but remember for 1-2 years after 9/11, we had very similar security procedures as Israel does for flying (especially from Toronto) to Washington Reagan National Airport -- route that I flew often.
They hand searched checked luggage and carry-on bags, our gate was in a very secluded section (nothing to eat) of Toronto Pearson Airport, metal detectors at the gate, no getting up from seats 30 min before landing, etc. Also seen some of this security in Cairo.
Fortunately, they don't do all this anymore for DCA and hope things will be very easy next summer. We are working with the State Dept / authorities to help make entry to US painless as possible.
Cheers, Katie
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Ah, well, I got 45 minutes of questioning -- a good chance to explain Wikimedia governance to the nice young lady at security ("so what do you do for wikipedia again?") The board is pretty suspicious! :)
Having the conference materials handy as well as reasonable documentation of your other travels, and business cards if applicable, is useful. In addition to general questions about the conference (who was on the program, etc) I also got asked for my university ID (where I work) and when I booked the tickets and so on -- agreed with Marcin that a lot of this is just to catch you out to see if there are inconsistencies and nervousness. But I figure not everyone gets this full questioning!
-- phoebe
ps there is no CD, afaik.
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 10:13 PM, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
All credit goes to Arthur Schnitzler and his beautiful novella "Traumnovelle", on which Kubrick's movie is based.
It never ceases to amaze me what a huge diffrence between the treatment that visitors and locals get at TLV. Even though I fly out quite often, for many years now my longest questioning was maybe 2 minutes, and my luggage was not manually searched at all.
Harel
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 22:04, Marcin Cieslak saper@saper.info wrote:
Who told the security staff at Ben Gurion that CDs have been distributed as part of the welcoming pack of Wikimania? Jeromy and I were requested to show the "CD you received from Wikimania" and we haven't got any.
One of the psychological techniques used by the security agencies is to explicitly ask for something not true and wait for denial. The truth (whether there were CDs or not) is not really relevant to this question
- it's how you react. Probably you are suspicious if you answer 100%
questions correctly and without any hesitation. Those interviews shouldn't be treated like a school test - it's not about getting as much correct answers as possible.
For an example of a successful use of this technique, see Stanley Kubrick's movie "Eyes Wide Shut", the scene during the party at the manor (not recommended for people sensitive about explicit scenes, usual disclaimers apply).
//Marcin
It's always the visitors, or "the outsiders" who get that treatment. Airport authorities, airlines hardly ever focus on local or people who look like of local origin. I have hardly ever seen any locals being held for questioning in any country that I have ever visited.
It's just who looks more like an outsider than the rest of the group.
Also, as Liam mentioned I'd strongly suggest keeping your tags, badges, schedules, any documentation to prove you actually attended the conference and provide them as proof.
Have a safe trip back everyone!
Theo
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
All credit goes to Arthur Schnitzler and his beautiful novella "Traumnovelle", on which Kubrick's movie is based.
It never ceases to amaze me what a huge diffrence between the treatment that visitors and locals get at TLV. Even though I fly out quite often, for many years now my longest questioning was maybe 2 minutes, and my luggage was not manually searched at all.
Harel
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 22:04, Marcin Cieslak saper@saper.info wrote:
Who told the security staff at Ben Gurion that CDs have been distributed
as
part of the welcoming pack of Wikimania? Jeromy and I were requested to
show
the "CD you received from Wikimania" and we haven't got any.
One of the psychological techniques used by the security agencies is to explicitly ask for something not true and wait for denial. The truth (whether there were CDs or not) is not really relevant to this question
- it's how you react. Probably you are suspicious if you answer 100%
questions correctly and without any hesitation. Those interviews shouldn't be treated like a school test - it's not about getting as much correct answers as possible.
For an example of a successful use of this technique, see Stanley Kubrick's movie "Eyes Wide Shut", the scene during the party at the manor (not recommended for people sensitive about explicit scenes, usual disclaimers apply).
//Marcin
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:03 PM, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
I'll see if I can find an Internet Cafe that burns backups to CD. Last time I went backpacking in New Zealand there were several places with that sort of service. Then if I slap one of those stickers in the centre it should look the ticket.
I don't really think lying or deliberately trying to mislead them is the best option. If you didn't get a CD, then just say that. But I guess it's your call.
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Theo10011 de10011@gmail.com wrote:
It's always the visitors, or "the outsiders" who get that treatment. Airport authorities, airlines hardly ever focus on local or people who look like of local origin. I have hardly ever seen any locals being held for questioning in any country that I have ever visited.
Yeah, or if there's something that stands out with a local, such as someone from Germany or who has a German-sounding name.
(Using German based on experiences I've noticed and because someone mentioned a similar issue with a German-sounding name on another thread, on some mailing list. :-))
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 1:36 AM, Casey Brown lists@caseybrown.org wrote:
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:03 PM, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
I'll see if I can find an Internet Cafe that burns backups to CD. Last time I went backpacking in New Zealand there were several places with that sort of service. Then if I slap one of those stickers in the centre it should look the ticket.
I don't really think lying or deliberately trying to mislead them is the best option. If you didn't get a CD, then just say that. But I guess it's your call.
I'm def. with Casey on this one. Don't try to mislead them deliberately, this can only bite you back. It would look very odd when all your fellow attendees insist there were no CDs handed out and you're the only one with a CD, no matter how legitimate those stickers make it look. ;)
Theo
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Theo10011 de10011@gmail.com wrote:
It's always the visitors, or "the outsiders" who get that treatment.
Airport
authorities, airlines hardly ever focus on local or people who look like
of
local origin. I have hardly ever seen any locals being held for
questioning
in any country that I have ever visited.
Yeah, or if there's something that stands out with a local, such as someone from Germany or who has a German-sounding name.
(Using German based on experiences I've noticed and because someone mentioned a similar issue with a German-sounding name on another thread, on some mailing list. :-))
-- Casey Brown Cbrown1023
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Or it will bite a other user that will pass the same security guard and doesn't have a CD.
2011/8/9 Theo10011 de10011@gmail.com
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 1:36 AM, Casey Brown lists@caseybrown.org wrote:
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:03 PM, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
I'll see if I can find an Internet Cafe that burns backups to CD. Last time I went backpacking in New Zealand there were several places with that sort of service. Then if I slap one of those stickers in the centre it should look the ticket.
I don't really think lying or deliberately trying to mislead them is the best option. If you didn't get a CD, then just say that. But I guess it's your call.
I'm def. with Casey on this one. Don't try to mislead them deliberately, this can only bite you back. It would look very odd when all your fellow attendees insist there were no CDs handed out and you're the only one with a CD, no matter how legitimate those stickers make it look. ;)
Theo
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Theo10011 de10011@gmail.com wrote:
It's always the visitors, or "the outsiders" who get that treatment.
Airport
authorities, airlines hardly ever focus on local or people who look like
of
local origin. I have hardly ever seen any locals being held for
questioning
in any country that I have ever visited.
Yeah, or if there's something that stands out with a local, such as someone from Germany or who has a German-sounding name.
(Using German based on experiences I've noticed and because someone mentioned a similar issue with a German-sounding name on another thread, on some mailing list. :-))
-- Casey Brown Cbrown1023
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Marcin, If what you said was correct the security staff must've been explicitly lying, which is, again, not cool. She said "we were told you received a CD from the conference". Deryck On Aug 10, 2011 3:05 AM, "Marcin Cieslak" saper@saper.info wrote:
Who told the security staff at Ben Gurion that CDs have been distributed
as
part of the welcoming pack of Wikimania? Jeromy and I were requested to
show
the "CD you received from Wikimania" and we haven't got any.
One of the psychological techniques used by the security agencies is to explicitly ask for something not true and wait for denial. The truth (whether there were CDs or not) is not really relevant to this question
- it's how you react. Probably you are suspicious if you answer 100%
questions
correctly and without any hesitation. Those interviews shouldn't be
treated
like a school test - it's not about getting as much correct answers as
possible.
For an example of a successful use of this technique, see Stanley
Kubrick's movie
"Eyes Wide Shut", the scene during the party at the manor (not recommended for people sensitive about explicit scenes, usual disclaimers apply).
//Marcin
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
On Aug 10, 2011, at 10:23 AM, Deryck Chan deryckchan@gmail.com wrote:
Marcin, If what you said was correct the security staff must've been explicitly lying, which is, again, not cool. She said "we were told you received a CD from the conference". Deryck
That could have also been a trick, you know.
"We were told you were given a CD."
"I was given other things but not a CD."
"You passed the test!" (this part would be more implied)
James
On Aug 10, 2011 3:05 AM, "Marcin Cieslak" saper@saper.info wrote:
Who told the security staff at Ben Gurion that CDs have been distributed as part of the welcoming pack of Wikimania? Jeromy and I were requested to show the "CD you received from Wikimania" and we haven't got any.
One of the psychological techniques used by the security agencies is to explicitly ask for something not true and wait for denial. The truth (whether there were CDs or not) is not really relevant to this question
- it's how you react. Probably you are suspicious if you answer 100% questions
correctly and without any hesitation. Those interviews shouldn't be treated like a school test - it's not about getting as much correct answers as possible.
For an example of a successful use of this technique, see Stanley Kubrick's movie "Eyes Wide Shut", the scene during the party at the manor (not recommended for people sensitive about explicit scenes, usual disclaimers apply).
//Marcin
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org