Hi all;
I'm thinking about notability in Wikidata and how it may conflict with Wikipedia current policies and community conceptions. Will Wikidata allow to create entities for small villages, asteroids, galaxies, stars, species, etc, that are not allowed today at Wikipedia? Including about those that don't have article in any Wikipedia?
I will be happy if so.
Regards, emijrp
2012/3/31 emijrp emijrp@gmail.com
I'm thinking about notability in Wikidata and how it may conflict with Wikipedia current policies and community conceptions. Will Wikidata allow to create entities for small villages, asteroids, galaxies, stars, species, etc, that are not allowed today at Wikipedia? Including about those that don't have article in any Wikipedia?
As far as I know, this is the concept. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Technical_proposal#Phase_2:_Infoboxe... FYI: Asteroids have their articles in Wikipedia. :-) At least in Hungarian. So they are already in...
Hi all;
I'm thinking about notability in Wikidata and how it may conflict with Wikipedia current policies and community conceptions. Will Wikidata allow to create entities for small villages, asteroids, galaxies, stars, species, etc, that are not allowed today at Wikipedia? Including about those that don't have article in any Wikipedia?
I will be happy if so.
Regards, emijrp
Uploading of the 2000 US census data on the English Wikipedia had that effect, creating articles for which there was no other verifiable information, or indeed, basis for notability.
Fred
On Mar 31, 2012, at 15:22, emijrp emijrp@gmail.com wrote:i all;
I'm thinking about notability in Wikidata and how it may conflict with Wikipedia current policies and community conceptions. Will Wikidata allow to create entities for small villages, asteroids, galaxies, stars, species, etc, that are not allowed today at Wikipedia? Including about those that don't have article in any Wikipedia?
Are you referring to the English Wikipedia's notability guidelines? I don't see why they would apply here, just as they don't apply to the English Wiktionary or the German Wikipedia. As far as I know, every Wikimedia project comes up with it's own guidelines. Are there any Wikimedia-wide guidelines?
On the other hand, as I understand it, Phase 1 of Wikidata is mostly about cataloging the union of all the Wikipedias, so if a concept is missing from =every= Wikipedia, I wonder if it will make the cut for Phase 1.
- John Burger
2012/3/31 John Burger john@jolelira.net
On Mar 31, 2012, at 15:22, emijrp emijrp@gmail.com wrote:i all;
I'm thinking about notability in Wikidata and how it may conflict with
Wikipedia current policies and community conceptions. Will Wikidata allow to create entities for small villages, asteroids, galaxies, stars, species, etc, that are not allowed today at Wikipedia? Including about those that don't have article in any Wikipedia?
Are you referring to the English Wikipedia's notability guidelines? I don't see why they would apply here, just as they don't apply to the English Wiktionary or the German Wikipedia. As far as I know, every Wikimedia project comes up with it's own guidelines. Are there any Wikimedia-wide guidelines?
There is no Wikipedia-wide guidelines about notability, just that content must be "encyclopedic".
On the other hand, as I understand it, Phase 1 of Wikidata is mostly about cataloging the union of all the Wikipedias, so if a concept is missing from =every= Wikipedia, I wonder if it will make the cut for Phase 1.
I mean Phase 2, where entities will be created. Can we create entities for 10,000,000 stars (using free data from observatories) that won't have own Wikipedia article in the foreseeable future, but would be useful to create "List of stars..." pages in Phase 3?
- John Burger
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
There is lots of excitement but I think that many of these discussions are missing the social aspects of this project and leading to many counterproductive suggestions (or atleast unrealistic use cases).
Creating a centralizing repository for Wikipdias data is both a social and technically challenge. It would contradict Information Architecture requirements to aggregate external data that is not immediately used in WMF projects. Doing so will quickly increase human workload (our most significant resource). Humans edit check and code.
WikiData's mandate appears to e to improve en.Wikipedia (and then the other WMF projects). Producing a component that pushes data into Wikipedia will fail very quickly if the community norms are not catered for. En.Wikipedia has the most complex ones.
Notability criteria filters out lots of "spam/noise" external stake holders would put into WMF project. What you call encyclopedic is too imprecise. It would be easy to import all MuzicBrains + AllMovie guide entries as WikiData - but it would not make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia/information source to read/edit if we had a page for each record in those databases.
IMHO what editors would like is a quick and easy way to import and share such data amongst projects once it has been found Notable - but also be able to use per project versions. (English and Arabic Wikipedia info boxes name different cities as the capital of Israel).
1. Each project has its own criteria of Notability, since it requires its own noise filter.
2. Wiktionary's is just as difficult as Wikipedia.
I suggest that newcomers try to study about how Wikipedia works so that we can have a more productive dialogue and WikiData will be accepted.
Oren Bochman
MediaWiki Search Developer.
From: wikidata-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikidata-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of emijrp Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 10:24 AM To: Discussion list for the Wikidata project. Subject: Re: [Wikidata-l] Notability in Wikidata
2012/3/31 John Burger john@jolelira.net
On Mar 31, 2012, at 15:22, emijrp emijrp@gmail.com wrote:i all;
I'm thinking about notability in Wikidata and how it may conflict with
Wikipedia current policies and community conceptions. Will Wikidata allow to create entities for small villages, asteroids, galaxies, stars, species, etc, that are not allowed today at Wikipedia? Including about those that don't have article in any Wikipedia?
Are you referring to the English Wikipedia's notability guidelines? I don't see why they would apply here, just as they don't apply to the English Wiktionary or the German Wikipedia. As far as I know, every Wikimedia project comes up with it's own guidelines. Are there any Wikimedia-wide guidelines?
There is no Wikipedia-wide guidelines about notability, just that content must be "encyclopedic".
On the other hand, as I understand it, Phase 1 of Wikidata is mostly about cataloging the union of all the Wikipedias, so if a concept is missing from =every= Wikipedia, I wonder if it will make the cut for Phase 1.
I mean Phase 2, where entities will be created. Can we create entities for 10,000,000 stars (using free data from observatories) that won't have own Wikipedia article in the foreseeable future, but would be useful to create "List of stars..." pages in Phase 3?
- John Burger
_______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
2012/4/2 Oren Bochman orenbochman@gmail.com
WikiData’s mandate appears to e to improve en.Wikipedia (and then the other WMF projects).
This is a new piece of information for me. Does enwiki really have any priority to other Wikipedias? :-O I would be unhappy with that.
WikiDatas mandate appears to e to improve en.Wikipedia (and then the other WMF projects). If WikiData cannot serve the needs of en.wikipedia it will be of little consequence to the other projects since it will need a community to maintain.
This is a new piece of information for me. Does enwiki really have any priority to other Wikipedias? :-O I would be unhappy with that.
My point is a pragmatic one not a political one. Note that Wikidata is planned to add language prototypes in the third part of the time line - that is my reference.
If you read my note you will notice I propose to take a realistic view of the communities. It would be a mistake to forget that en.wikipeia is where the bulk of the information exists, the largest community and the source of the most difficult policies i.e. the greatest challenges.
However getting data into Wikidata is only half of the problem. To get it out as to ar...zu.Wikpedias without causing chaos -- is what we are here to figure out.
Hola,
I registered to the mailing list and I am pleased to see lot of collaboration-discussion.
BUT: WHY A MAILING LIST? I am an entrepreneur and to build-followup a project we never ever use a mailing-list.
You are all Wikipedia early adopters so pls USE A WIKI to discuss and process this Wikidata project!
Twenty or more mails per day about this project is not manageable and useless (how do you organize the different questions and ideas? )
Thx for your time
Isabelle Ayel Tel/Fax: +34 976 088 566 Email: isabelle.ayel@gmail.com My blogs: isayel.net | pouce-café http://zfr.posterous.com | zaragoza día día http://zaragozadiadia.posterous.com Networking with: http://www.facebook.com/isayel?ref=name Facebookhttp://www.facebook.com/isayel?ref=name http://twitter.com/nanouk Twitter http://twitter.com/nanouk https://plus.google.com/111878932945338226153 Google Plushttps://plus.google.com/111878932945338226153 http://es.linkedin.com/in/isabelleayel LinkedInhttp://es.linkedin.com/in/isabelleayel Contact me: [image: Google Talk] isabelle.ayel [image: Skype] aspmaetb [image: Twitter] http://twitter.com/nanouk Latest tweet: #Zaragoza Domingo de Ramos, tambores y bombos #semanasanta voy a San Gayetano, nos vemos (estaré sentada @carlosgutierrez Follow @nanouk http://twitter.com/nanouk Reply http://twitter.com/?status=@nanouk%20&in_reply_to_status_id=186416129869221900&in_reply_to=nanouk Retweet http://twitter.com/?status=RT%20%40nanouk%3A%20%23Zaragoza%20Domingo%20de%20Ramos%2C%20tambores%20y%20bombos%20%23semanasanta%20%20voy%20a%20San%20Gayetano%2C%20nos%20vemos%20(estar%C3%A9%20sentada%20%40carlosgutierrez 13:34 Apr-01http://twitter.com/nanouk/statuses/186416129869221888 Get this email app! http://www.wisestamp.com/apps/twitter?utm_source=extension&utm_medium=email&utm_term=twitter&utm_campaign=apps
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 12:47, Oren Bochman orenbochman@gmail.com wrote:
There is lots of excitement but I think that many of these discussions are missing the social aspects of this project and leading to many counterproductive suggestions (or atleast unrealistic use cases).****
Creating a centralizing repository for Wikipdias data is both a social and technically challenge. It would contradict Information Architecture requirements to aggregate external data that is not immediately used in WMF projects. Doing so will quickly increase human workload (our most significant resource). Humans edit check and code… ****
WikiData’s mandate appears to e to improve en.Wikipedia (and then the other WMF projects). Producing a component that pushes data into Wikipedia will fail very quickly if the community norms are not catered for. En.Wikipedia has the most complex ones.****
Notability criteria filters out lots of “spam/noise” external stake holders would put into WMF project. What you call encyclopedic is too imprecise. It would be easy to import all MuzicBrains + AllMovie guide entries as WikiData – but it would not make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia/information source to read/edit if we had a page for each record in those databases. ****
IMHO what editors would like is a quick and easy way to import and share such data amongst projects once it has been found Notable – but also be able to use per project versions. (English and Arabic Wikipedia info boxes name different cities as the capital of Israel).****
**1. **Each project has its own criteria of Notability, since it requires its own noise filter.****
**2. **Wiktionary’s is just as difficult as Wikipedia.****
I suggest that newcomers try to study about how Wikipedia works so that we can have a more productive dialogue and WikiData will be accepted.****
Oren Bochman****
MediaWiki Search Developer.****
*From:* wikidata-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikidata-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *emijrp *Sent:* Sunday, April 01, 2012 10:24 AM *To:* Discussion list for the Wikidata project. *Subject:* Re: [Wikidata-l] Notability in Wikidata****
2012/3/31 John Burger john@jolelira.net****
On Mar 31, 2012, at 15:22, emijrp emijrp@gmail.com wrote:i all;****
I'm thinking about notability in Wikidata and how it may conflict with
Wikipedia current policies and community conceptions. Will Wikidata allow to create entities for small villages, asteroids, galaxies, stars, species, etc, that are not allowed today at Wikipedia? Including about those that don't have article in any Wikipedia?****
Are you referring to the English Wikipedia's notability guidelines? I don't see why they would apply here, just as they don't apply to the English Wiktionary or the German Wikipedia. As far as I know, every Wikimedia project comes up with it's own guidelines. Are there any Wikimedia-wide guidelines?****
There is no Wikipedia-wide guidelines about notability, just that content must be "encyclopedic".****
On the other hand, as I understand it, Phase 1 of Wikidata is mostly about cataloging the union of all the Wikipedias, so if a concept is missing from =every= Wikipedia, I wonder if it will make the cut for Phase 1.****
I mean Phase 2, where entities will be created. Can we create entities for 10,000,000 stars (using free data from observatories) that won't have own Wikipedia article in the foreseeable future, but would be useful to create "List of stars..." pages in Phase 3?****
- John Burger****
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l****
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Isabelle Ayel isabelle.ayel@gmail.com wrote:
Hola,
I registered to the mailing list and I am pleased to see lot of collaboration-discussion.
BUT: WHY A MAILING LIST? I am an entrepreneur and to build-followup a project we never ever use a mailing-list.
You are all Wikipedia early adopters so pls USE A WIKI to discuss and process this Wikidata project!
Twenty or more mails per day about this project is not manageable and useless (how do you organize the different questions and ideas? )
Thx for your time
Isabelle Ayel
Hi Isabelle,
discussions are also going on on the discussion pages under http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata. Some people prefer those and some prefer a mailing list. This list is pretty high traffic right now because of all the attention the project has gotten over the last days. It'll probably get better again in a bit.
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Community Communications for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Eisenacher Straße 2 10777 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Hello,
Is there any plan to use some kind of project management tool like trac (trac.org) ? Or at least a forum software? I find neither the mailing list nor the wiki very well suited for keeping track of the various discussion threads and software development issues.
nad
Am 02.04.2012 um 18:59 schrieb Lydia Pintscher:
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Isabelle Ayel isabelle.ayel@gmail.com wrote:
Hola,
I registered to the mailing list and I am pleased to see lot of collaboration-discussion.
BUT: WHY A MAILING LIST? I am an entrepreneur and to build-followup a project we never ever use a mailing-list.
You are all Wikipedia early adopters so pls USE A WIKI to discuss and process this Wikidata project!
Twenty or more mails per day about this project is not manageable and useless (how do you organize the different questions and ideas? )
Thx for your time
Isabelle Ayel
Hi Isabelle,
discussions are also going on on the discussion pages under http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata. Some people prefer those and some prefer a mailing list. This list is pretty high traffic right now because of all the attention the project has gotten over the last days. It'll probably get better again in a bit.
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Community Communications for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Eisenacher Straße 2 10777 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 7:37 PM, Nadja Kutz nadja@daytar.de wrote:
Hello,
Is there any plan to use some kind of project management tool like trac (trac.org) ? Or at least a forum software? I find neither the mailing list nor the wiki very well suited for keeping track of the various discussion threads and software development issues.
We'll be doing SCRUM and there will be a public SCRUM log for that. No there will not be a forum. I don't want to split discussions even further. I will be doing weekly summaries starting next week probably. These should be good to keep track of everything if you don't want to read all the emails.
However this is totally getting off-topic for this thread ;-)
Cheers Lydia
Am 02.04.2012 um 20:22 schrieb Lydia Pintscher:
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 7:37 PM, Nadja Kutz nadja@daytar.de wrote:
Hello,
Is there any plan to use some kind of project management tool like trac (trac.org) ? Or at least a forum software? I find neither the mailing list nor the wiki very well suited for keeping track of the various discussion threads and software development issues.
We'll be doing SCRUM and there will be a public SCRUM log for that.
trac has a scrum plugin (which I havent yet tried out). It has also a direct hub to subversion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Subversion
No there will not be a forum. I don't want to split discussions even further.
the problem is that on this mailing list it is even problematic to identify a discussion thread. Whats so bad about to split discussions?
I will be doing weekly summaries starting next week probably. These should be good to keep track of everything if you don't want to read all the emails.
Eventually one would like to reply to a discussion, I dont know wether this works very well if you just read the summary.
However this is totally getting off-topic for this thread ;-)
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Community Communications for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Eisenacher Straße 2 10777 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Dennis Tobar wrote: Or just install LiquidThreads extension to discussion of objectives or model data. Code and others in a git repo(?)
Or just install LiquidThreads extension to discussion of objectives or model data. Code and others in a git repo(?) El 02/04/2012 15:19, "Nadja Kutz" nadja@daytar.de escribió:
Hello,
Is there any plan to use some kind of project management tool like trac ( trac.org) ? Or at least a forum software? I find neither the mailing list nor the wiki very well suited for keeping track of the various discussion threads and software development issues.
nad
Am 02.04.2012 um 18:59 schrieb Lydia Pintscher:
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Isabelle Ayel isabelle.ayel@gmail.com
wrote:
Hola,
I registered to the mailing list and I am pleased to see lot of collaboration-discussion.
BUT: WHY A MAILING LIST? I am an entrepreneur and to build-followup a project we never ever use a mailing-list.
You are all Wikipedia early adopters so pls USE A WIKI to discuss and process this Wikidata project!
Twenty or more mails per day about this project is not manageable and useless (how do you organize the different questions and ideas? )
Thx for your time
Isabelle Ayel
Hi Isabelle,
discussions are also going on on the discussion pages under http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata. Some people prefer those and some prefer a mailing list. This list is pretty high traffic right now because of all the attention the project has gotten over the last days. It'll probably get better again in a bit.
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Community Communications for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Eisenacher Straße 2 10777 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
unter
der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
In general, policies for notability in Wikidata will be governed by the community of (all) Wikidata editors. On the technical side, we aim to achieve two things:
* The system should be able to handle a lot of data.
* The interfaces and data access features should minimize the negative impact that additional (correct but not very important) data has on usage.
Of course, both goals have their limits and there will always be good (technical or social) reasons to not include everything. We would rather like to support linking and data integration with external data bases than suggest *every* fact of the world to be copied to Wikidata.
Markus
On 31/03/12 20:22, emijrp wrote:
Hi all;
I'm thinking about notability in Wikidata and how it may conflict with Wikipedia current policies and community conceptions. Will Wikidata allow to create entities for small villages, asteroids, galaxies, stars, species, etc, that are not allowed today at Wikipedia? Including about those that don't have article in any Wikipedia?
I will be happy if so.
Regards, emijrp
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
2012/4/1 Markus Krötzsch markus.kroetzsch@cs.ox.ac.uk
We would rather like to support linking and data integration with external data bases than suggest *every* fact of the world to be copied to Wikidata.
An interesting example is the IUCN redlist of threatened species: http://www.iucnredlist.org/ Data are modified by IUCN from time to time, so copying would be a rather temporary solution, while the redlist status is important in infoboxes of animals and plants.
2012/4/1 Bináris wikiposta@gmail.com
2012/4/1 Markus Krötzsch markus.kroetzsch@cs.ox.ac.uk
We would rather like to support linking and data integration with external data bases than suggest *every* fact of the world to be copied to Wikidata.
An interesting example is the IUCN redlist of threatened species: http://www.iucnredlist.org/ Data are modified by IUCN from time to time, so copying would be a rather temporary solution, while the redlist status is important in infoboxes of animals and plants.
We must not rely on 3rd parties. We need a local copy on Wikidata and auto-update the values using a feed or similar.
-- Bináris
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
What shall be updated from which source? As I have understand there will be an api for externals to use, nothing more. I would like some easy to use bot-like feature, but to avoid feature creep perhaps this could be made by someone outside the project?
Just an idea, ..
Jeblad On 1. apr. 2012 17.13, "emijrp" emijrp@gmail.com wrote:
2012/4/1 Bináris wikiposta@gmail.com
2012/4/1 Markus Krötzsch markus.kroetzsch@cs.ox.ac.uk
We would rather like to support linking and data integration with external data bases than suggest *every* fact of the world to be copied to Wikidata.
An interesting example is the IUCN redlist of threatened species: http://www.iucnredlist.org/ Data are modified by IUCN from time to time, so copying would be a rather temporary solution, while the redlist status is important in infoboxes of animals and plants.
We must not rely on 3rd parties. We need a local copy on Wikidata and auto-update the values using a feed or similar.
-- Bináris
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Bináris wikiposta@gmail.com wrote:
2012/4/1 Markus Krötzsch markus.kroetzsch@cs.ox.ac.uk
We would rather like to support linking and data integration with external data bases than suggest *every* fact of the world to be copied to Wikidata.
An interesting example is the IUCN redlist of threatened species: http://www.iucnredlist.org/ Data are modified by IUCN from time to time, so copying would be a rather temporary solution, while the redlist status is important in infoboxes of animals and plants.
Actually, to do anything with their data you'd need to get written approval for exceptions to their terms of use which prohibit both redistribution and commercial use (ie you'd need to include a NC clause in your license).
http://www.iucnredlist.org/info/terms-of-use#3._No_commercial_use
Tom