1. Thank you, Carol Moore dc, for writing an excellent response to what (I agree) was a very silly and irritating comment at the http://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/05/01/meet-the-inspire-grantees/ post.
2. Regarding the edit-a-thons, you said:
Hmmm, looks like some guys even object to edit-a-thons, trashing their
posters on campus... http://www.newsrecord.org/news/students-combat-gender-imbalance-online/artic...
Actually, the male students didn't trash the wiki women posters, but made and posted separate "wiki dudes" posters of their own. The NewsRecord post said that doing so didn't constitute a Title IX violation, yet.
I find it kind of disturbing that male students would feel the need to react that way, by making the wiki dudes posters. It is obvious that there is less coverage of women in Wikipedia than of men, and that most notable figures in American and European (in fact, global) arts, history and science have been men, who have received plenty of attention and biographical scholarship already!
The fact that the anonymous male students went to the trouble of creating separate posters, rather than vandalizing the existing wiki women posters, indicates a level of forethought that is beyond mere impulse trolling. If I were to wear my politically correct hat, I would say that even members of the patriarchy realize and acknowledge that there is more scholarship devoted to notable men than notable women. The truly oppressive patriarchy would believe that that is appropriate, and go about their business. Do the wiki dudes guys truly believe that men are being overshadowed and under-represented on Wikipedia and elsewhere, I wonder? If so, that demonstrates a troubling lack of awareness of reality, especially on a college campus.
I don't have any suggestions for remedying the situation, nor am I condemning anyone's actions e.g. for "making men feel marginalized"; I suspect that these men are deliberately choosing to marginalize themselves. It is just a remarkably peculiar reaction to wiki women edit-a-thon's, and I hope we don't see more of it.
~Ellie Kesselman a.k.a FeralOink
Thanks for excellent comments. I should have been more specific than saying "trashed" and said the flyers were torn down, per article: "The DAAP edit-a-thon was not met without opposition on campus, as promotional fliers for the event were repeatedly torn down and replaced with a satirical “Wiki Dudes” poster featuring Martin Luther King Jr., Jesus, Albert Einstein and Abraham Lincoln."
The good news is that on so many fronts and issues, not just Wikipedia, women are fighting back and that's the important thing... So overall I'm an optimist! :-)
On 5/4/2015 6:10 PM, Ellie K wrote:
- Thank you, Carol Moore dc, for writing an excellent response to
what (I agree) was a very silly and irritating comment at thehttp://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/05/01/meet-the-inspire-grantees/ post.
- Regarding the edit-a-thons, you said:
Hmmm, looks like some guys even object to edit-a-thons, trashing their posters on campus...
http://www.newsrecord.org/news/students-combat-gender-imbalance-online/artic...
Actually, the male students didn't trash the wiki women posters, but made and posted separate "wiki dudes" posters of their own. The NewsRecord post said that doing so didn't constitute a Title IX violation, yet.
I find it kind of disturbing that male students would feel the need to react that way, by making the wiki dudes posters. It is obvious that there is less coverage of women in Wikipedia than of men, and that most notable figures in American and European (in fact, global) arts, history and science have been men, who have received plenty of attention and biographical scholarship already!
The fact that the anonymous male students went to the trouble of creating separate posters, rather than vandalizing the existing wiki women posters, indicates a level of forethought that is beyond mere impulse trolling. If I were to wear my politically correct hat, I would say that even members of the patriarchy realize and acknowledge that there is more scholarship devoted to notable men than notable women. The truly oppressive patriarchy would believe that that is appropriate, and go about their business. Do the wiki dudes guys truly believe that men are being overshadowed and under-represented on Wikipedia and elsewhere, I wonder? If so, that demonstrates a troubling lack of awareness of reality, especially on a college campus.
I don't have any suggestions for remedying the situation, nor am I condemning anyone's actions e.g. for "making men feel marginalized"; I suspect that these men are deliberately choosing to marginalize themselves. It is just a remarkably peculiar reaction to wiki women edit-a-thon's, and I hope we don't see more of it.
~Ellie Kesselman a.k.a FeralOink
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
the counter-flyers are like "men's rights" it's a rhetoric of role reversal the culture of privilege does not like to be challenged it must maintain a veneer, with critique muzzled it's more small group validation, than attempt at dialogue a FUD attempt to divide and conquer changing dominate culture to be more empathetic is a long term project.
On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 5:16 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
Thanks for excellent comments. I should have been more specific than saying "trashed" and said the flyers were torn down, per article: "The DAAP edit-a-thon was not met without opposition on campus, as promotional fliers for the event were repeatedly torn down and replaced with a satirical “Wiki Dudes” poster featuring Martin Luther King Jr., Jesus, Albert Einstein and Abraham Lincoln."
The good news is that on so many fronts and issues, not just Wikipedia, women are fighting back and that's the important thing... So overall I'm an optimist! :-)
On 5/4/2015 6:10 PM, Ellie K wrote:
- Thank you, Carol Moore dc, for writing an excellent response to what
(I agree) was a very silly and irritating comment at the http://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/05/01/meet-the-inspire-grantees/ post.
- Regarding the edit-a-thons, you said:
Hmmm, looks like some guys even object to edit-a-thons, trashing their
posters on campus... http://www.newsrecord.org/news/students-combat-gender-imbalance-online/artic...
Actually, the male students didn't trash the wiki women posters, but made and posted separate "wiki dudes" posters of their own. The NewsRecord post said that doing so didn't constitute a Title IX violation, yet.
I find it kind of disturbing that male students would feel the need to react that way, by making the wiki dudes posters. It is obvious that there is less coverage of women in Wikipedia than of men, and that most notable figures in American and European (in fact, global) arts, history and science have been men, who have received plenty of attention and biographical scholarship already!
The fact that the anonymous male students went to the trouble of creating separate posters, rather than vandalizing the existing wiki women posters, indicates a level of forethought that is beyond mere impulse trolling. If I were to wear my politically correct hat, I would say that even members of the patriarchy realize and acknowledge that there is more scholarship devoted to notable men than notable women. The truly oppressive patriarchy would believe that that is appropriate, and go about their business. Do the wiki dudes guys truly believe that men are being overshadowed and under-represented on Wikipedia and elsewhere, I wonder? If so, that demonstrates a troubling lack of awareness of reality, especially on a college campus.
I don't have any suggestions for remedying the situation, nor am I condemning anyone's actions e.g. for "making men feel marginalized"; I suspect that these men are deliberately choosing to marginalize themselves. It is just a remarkably peculiar reaction to wiki women edit-a-thon's, and I hope we don't see more of it.
~Ellie Kesselman a.k.a FeralOink
Gendergap mailing listGendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Allow me to suggest a somewhat less insidious explanation.
Today's young adults have largely been brought up in an environment of egalitarianism. While we know that this environment isn't actually as egalitarian as it seems, and there are many privileges retained by the dominant demographics, today's college students by and large haven't been introduced to that concept yet. They're still operating under the primary and secondary school mindset in which boys and girls are treated (at least on the surface) equally.
(Racial privilege operates similarly.)
So young adults instinctively bristle when they see attempts to counter systemic bias, because a) they have never been shown that systemic bias, and b) they have an inherent predilection toward equal treatment. Any attempt to counter systemic bias (most famously affirmative action) is thus seen as unequal treatment and thus undesirable, unfair, or even immoral.
It takes a concerted effort to demonstrate to (and thereby enlighten) members of the privileged categories that a modicum of unequal treatment is necessary in order to bring about a more equal society. Until that happens, young adults will use their newfound powers of persuasion and activism to rebel against any unequal treatment.
If we view this more as a positive instinctual preference for fairness rather than as a negative instinctual defense of privilege, I suspect we might make more allies than enemies.
Trust me -- I myself have only recently (in the last 4 years or so) come around to recognizing the inherent privilege my gender and race grant me. It is very hard to overcome the instinct to prefer equal treatment over unequal.
Powers &8^]
-----Original Message----- From: J Hayes [mailto:slowking4@gmail.com] Sent: 05 May 2015 21:20 To: Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participationof women within Wikimedia projects. Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Announcing Inspire Campaign Grantees (Carol Mooredc)
the counter-flyers are like "men's rights"
it's a rhetoric of role reversal
the culture of privilege does not like to be challenged
it must maintain a veneer, with critique muzzled
it's more small group validation, than attempt at dialogue
a FUD attempt to divide and conquer
changing dominate culture to be more empathetic is a long term project.
On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 5:16 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
Thanks for excellent comments. I should have been more specific than saying "trashed" and said the flyers were torn down, per article: "The DAAP edit-a-thon was not met without opposition on campus, as promotional fliers for the event were repeatedly torn down and replaced with a satirical "Wiki Dudes" poster featuring Martin Luther King Jr., Jesus, Albert Einstein and Abraham Lincoln."
The good news is that on so many fronts and issues, not just Wikipedia, women are fighting back and that's the important thing... So overall I'm an optimist! :-)
On 5/4/2015 6:10 PM, Ellie K wrote:
1. Thank you, Carol Moore dc, for writing an excellent response to what (I agree) was a very silly and irritating comment at the http://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/05/01/meet-the-inspire-grantees/ http://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/05/01/meet-the-inspire-grantees/ post.
2. Regarding the edit-a-thons, you said:
Hmmm, looks like some guys even object to edit-a-thons, trashing their
posters on campus... http://www.newsrecord.org/news/students-combat-gender-imbalance-online/arti cle_fd100a5c-e13c-11e4-9d73-d3ef3275ba46.html http://www.newsrecord.org/news/students-combat-gender-imbalance-online/artic le_fd100a5c-e13c-11e4-9d73-d3ef3275ba46.html
Actually, the male students didn't trash the wiki women posters, but made and posted separate "wiki dudes" posters of their own. The NewsRecord post said that doing so didn't constitute a Title IX violation, yet.
I find it kind of disturbing that male students would feel the need to react that way, by making the wiki dudes posters. It is obvious that there is less coverage of women in Wikipedia than of men, and that most notable figures in American and European (in fact, global) arts, history and science have been men, who have received plenty of attention and biographical scholarship already!
The fact that the anonymous male students went to the trouble of creating separate posters, rather than vandalizing the existing wiki women posters, indicates a level of forethought that is beyond mere impulse trolling. If I were to wear my politically correct hat, I would say that even members of the patriarchy realize and acknowledge that there is more scholarship devoted to notable men than notable women. The truly oppressive patriarchy would believe that that is appropriate, and go about their business. Do the wiki dudes guys truly believe that men are being overshadowed and under-represented on Wikipedia and elsewhere, I wonder? If so, that demonstrates a troubling lack of awareness of reality, especially on a college campus.
I don't have any suggestions for remedying the situation, nor am I condemning anyone's actions e.g. for "making men feel marginalized"; I suspect that these men are deliberately choosing to marginalize themselves. It is just a remarkably peculiar reaction to wiki women edit-a-thon's, and I hope we don't see more of it.
~Ellie Kesselman a.k.a FeralOink
_______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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+1 Eloquently put.
From: LtPowers <LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.commailto:LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.com> Reply-To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects." <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 11:29 AM To: "'Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase theparticipation of women within Wikimedia projects.'" <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Announcing Inspire Campaign Grantees (Carol Mooredc)
Allow me to suggest a somewhat less insidious explanation.
Today's young adults have largely been brought up in an environment of egalitarianism. While we know that this environment isn't actually as egalitarian as it seems, and there are many privileges retained by the dominant demographics, today's college students by and large haven't been introduced to that concept yet. They're still operating under the primary and secondary school mindset in which boys and girls are treated (at least on the surface) equally.
(Racial privilege operates similarly.)
So young adults instinctively bristle when they see attempts to counter systemic bias, because a) they have never been shown that systemic bias, and b) they have an inherent predilection toward equal treatment. Any attempt to counter systemic bias (most famously affirmative action) is thus seen as unequal treatment and thus undesirable, unfair, or even immoral.
It takes a concerted effort to demonstrate to (and thereby enlighten) members of the privileged categories that a modicum of unequal treatment is necessary in order to bring about a more equal society. Until that happens, young adults will use their newfound powers of persuasion and activism to rebel against any unequal treatment.
If we view this more as a positive instinctual preference for fairness rather than as a negative instinctual defense of privilege, I suspect we might make more allies than enemies.
Trust me -- I myself have only recently (in the last 4 years or so) come around to recognizing the inherent privilege my gender and race grant me. It is very hard to overcome the instinct to prefer equal treatment over unequal.
Powers &8^]
-----Original Message----- From: J Hayes [mailto:slowking4@gmail.com] Sent: 05 May 2015 21:20 To: Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participationof women within Wikimedia projects. Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Announcing Inspire Campaign Grantees (Carol Mooredc)
the counter-flyers are like "men's rights" it's a rhetoric of role reversal the culture of privilege does not like to be challenged it must maintain a veneer, with critique muzzled it's more small group validation, than attempt at dialogue a FUD attempt to divide and conquer changing dominate culture to be more empathetic is a long term project.
On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 5:16 PM, Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.netmailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net> wrote: Thanks for excellent comments. I should have been more specific than saying "trashed" and said the flyers were torn down, per article: "The DAAP edit-a-thon was not met without opposition on campus, as promotional fliers for the event were repeatedly torn down and replaced with a satirical “Wiki Dudes” poster featuring Martin Luther King Jr., Jesus, Albert Einstein and Abraham Lincoln."
The good news is that on so many fronts and issues, not just Wikipedia, women are fighting back and that's the important thing... So overall I'm an optimist! :-)
On 5/4/2015 6:10 PM, Ellie K wrote: 1. Thank you, Carol Moore dc, for writing an excellent response to what (I agree) was a very silly and irritating comment at the http://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/05/01/meet-the-inspire-grantees/ post.
2. Regarding the edit-a-thons, you said:
Hmmm, looks like some guys even object to edit-a-thons, trashing their posters on campus... http://www.newsrecord.org/news/students-combat-gender-imbalance-online/artic...
Actually, the male students didn't trash the wiki women posters, but made and posted separate "wiki dudes" posters of their own. The NewsRecord post said that doing so didn't constitute a Title IX violation, yet.
I find it kind of disturbing that male students would feel the need to react that way, by making the wiki dudes posters. It is obvious that there is less coverage of women in Wikipedia than of men, and that most notable figures in American and European (in fact, global) arts, history and science have been men, who have received plenty of attention and biographical scholarship already!
The fact that the anonymous male students went to the trouble of creating separate posters, rather than vandalizing the existing wiki women posters, indicates a level of forethought that is beyond mere impulse trolling. If I were to wear my politically correct hat, I would say that even members of the patriarchy realize and acknowledge that there is more scholarship devoted to notable men than notable women. The truly oppressive patriarchy would believe that that is appropriate, and go about their business. Do the wiki dudes guys truly believe that men are being overshadowed and under-represented on Wikipedia and elsewhere, I wonder? If so, that demonstrates a troubling lack of awareness of reality, especially on a college campus.
I don't have any suggestions for remedying the situation, nor am I condemning anyone's actions e.g. for "making men feel marginalized"; I suspect that these men are deliberately choosing to marginalize themselves. It is just a remarkably peculiar reaction to wiki women edit-a-thon's, and I hope we don't see more of it.
~Ellie Kesselman a.k.a FeralOink
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Hi LtPowers, Thank you for offering a thoughtful response.
It is hard to know the motivation of the people sabotaging this particular on campus project. But in general I agree with your comment.
I share your perspective that many young adults are opposed to treating people differently based on race and gender especially if a direct link is not made to an economic or other specific type of disadvantage that needs to be addressed to level the playing field. Even then, some people will reject any solution that targets one group over another for special treatment believing that the solution perpetuates the problem by continuing to treat that group differently.
It's sad but not surprising to know that some people feel so strongly about it that they would attempt to sabotage an on campus event.
Sydney
Sydney Poore User:FloNight Wikipedian in Residence at Cochrane Collaboration
On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 2:29 PM, LtPowers LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.com wrote:
Allow me to suggest a somewhat less insidious explanation.
Today's young adults have largely been brought up in an environment of egalitarianism. While we know that this environment isn't actually as egalitarian as it seems, and there are many privileges retained by the dominant demographics, today's college students by and large haven't been introduced to that concept yet. They're still operating under the primary and secondary school mindset in which boys and girls are treated (at least on the surface) equally.
(Racial privilege operates similarly.)
So young adults instinctively bristle when they see attempts to counter systemic bias, because a) they have never been shown that systemic bias, and b) they have an inherent predilection toward equal treatment. Any attempt to counter systemic bias (most famously affirmative action) is thus seen as unequal treatment and thus undesirable, unfair, or even immoral.
It takes a concerted effort to demonstrate to (and thereby enlighten) members of the privileged categories that a modicum of unequal treatment is necessary in order to bring about a more equal society. Until that happens, young adults will use their newfound powers of persuasion and activism to rebel against any unequal treatment.
If we view this more as a positive instinctual preference for fairness rather than as a negative instinctual defense of privilege, I suspect we might make more allies than enemies.
Trust me -- I myself have only recently (in the last 4 years or so) come around to recognizing the inherent privilege my gender and race grant me. It is very hard to overcome the instinct to prefer equal treatment over unequal.
Powers &8^]-----Original Message----- *From:* J Hayes [mailto:slowking4@gmail.com] *Sent:* 05 May 2015 21:20 *To:* Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participationof women within Wikimedia projects. *Subject:* Re: [Gendergap] Announcing Inspire Campaign Grantees (Carol Mooredc)
the counter-flyers are like "men's rights"
it's a rhetoric of role reversal
the culture of privilege does not like to be challenged
it must maintain a veneer, with critique muzzled
it's more small group validation, than attempt at dialogue
a FUD attempt to divide and conquer
changing dominate culture to be more empathetic is a long term project.
On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 5:16 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
Thanks for excellent comments. I should have been more specific than saying "trashed" and said the flyers were torn down, per article: "The DAAP edit-a-thon was not met without opposition on campus, as promotional fliers for the event were repeatedly torn down and replaced with a satirical “Wiki Dudes” poster featuring Martin Luther King Jr., Jesus, Albert Einstein and Abraham Lincoln."
The good news is that on so many fronts and issues, not just Wikipedia, women are fighting back and that's the important thing... So overall I'm an optimist! :-)
On 5/4/2015 6:10 PM, Ellie K wrote:
- Thank you, Carol Moore dc, for writing an excellent response to what
(I agree) was a very silly and irritating comment at the http://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/05/01/meet-the-inspire-grantees/ post.
- Regarding the edit-a-thons, you said:
Hmmm, looks like some guys even object to edit-a-thons, trashing
their posters on campus... http://www.newsrecord.org/news/students-combat-gender-imbalance-online/artic...
Actually, the male students didn't trash the wiki women posters, but made and posted separate "wiki dudes" posters of their own. The NewsRecord post said that doing so didn't constitute a Title IX violation, yet.
I find it kind of disturbing that male students would feel the need to react that way, by making the wiki dudes posters. It is obvious that there is less coverage of women in Wikipedia than of men, and that most notable figures in American and European (in fact, global) arts, history and science have been men, who have received plenty of attention and biographical scholarship already!
The fact that the anonymous male students went to the trouble of creating separate posters, rather than vandalizing the existing wiki women posters, indicates a level of forethought that is beyond mere impulse trolling. If I were to wear my politically correct hat, I would say that even members of the patriarchy realize and acknowledge that there is more scholarship devoted to notable men than notable women. The truly oppressive patriarchy would believe that that is appropriate, and go about their business. Do the wiki dudes guys truly believe that men are being overshadowed and under-represented on Wikipedia and elsewhere, I wonder? If so, that demonstrates a troubling lack of awareness of reality, especially on a college campus.
I don't have any suggestions for remedying the situation, nor am I condemning anyone's actions e.g. for "making men feel marginalized"; I suspect that these men are deliberately choosing to marginalize themselves. It is just a remarkably peculiar reaction to wiki women edit-a-thon's, and I hope we don't see more of it.
~Ellie Kesselman a.k.a FeralOink
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