I've never particularly felt the "boys club" atmosphere on Wikipedia that apparently deters some women. However, I am very angry right now. I tried to add [[date rape]] as a "see also" link to the very incomplete article [[college dating]]. The relevance seemed obvious to me. It was removed by two separate people, and when I took it to the talk page, its relevance was questioned, and I was told to "prove it" because it was "obvious to whom?" Fine. I've proven it with sourcing, adding a small section. I think that needed to happen anyway, but I'm infuriated that I could not just add a see also link to it and tell the students who are really working on the article that a section needed adding. (The people who removed the link are seasoned Wikipedians, not members of the class developing the article.) Am I crazy?
LadyofShalott
I've never particularly felt the "boys club" atmosphere on Wikipedia that apparently deters some women. However, I am very angry right now. I tried to add [[date rape]] as a "see also" link to the very incomplete article [[college dating]]. The relevance seemed obvious to me. It was removed by two separate people, and when I took it to the talk page, its relevance was questioned, and I was told to "prove it" because it was "obvious to whom?" Fine. I've proven it with sourcing, adding a small section. I think that needed to happen anyway, but I'm infuriated that I could not just add a see also link to it and tell the students who are really working on the article that a section needed adding. (The people who removed the link are seasoned Wikipedians, not members of the class developing the article.) Am I crazy?
LadyofShalott
No, that is the usual reaction of biased editors of all persuasions, to throw their mind out of gear, when obvious conclusions which contradict their bias are advanced.
It would not have to be a gender related issue for this to occur.
Fred
It seems this has been rectified the way it should be, IMO: a separate section about date rape has been added to the article, with a short, reliably sourced graf. This is perfectly in keeping with WP:SEEALSO's dictum that such links are fine in a less-developed article as long as the intention is to eventually incorporate them into the article (in fact, I would amend that passage slightly to suggest that it's even better to start such a section yourself or at least bring it up on the talk page in conjunction with such an addition).
Daniel Case
Well, it's not rectified yet. The one source I've given thus far is not enough apparently. I have to add more.
The see also was not merely questioned before, it was removed (with one edit summary being "seriously, wtf?")
LoS
On 10/24/11, Daniel and Elizabeth Case dancase@frontiernet.net wrote:
It seems this has been rectified the way it should be, IMO: a separate section about date rape has been added to the article, with a short, reliably sourced graf. This is perfectly in keeping with WP:SEEALSO's dictum that such links are fine in a less-developed article as long as the intention is to eventually incorporate them into the article (in fact, I would amend that passage slightly to suggest that it's even better to start such a section yourself or at least bring it up on the talk page in conjunction with such an addition).
Daniel Case
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with. If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish, the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.
-----Original Message----- From: Nathan Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with. If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish, the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.
On the surface I tend to agree, but then I read the AfD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating
Daniel Case
Yeah, personally I think the subject is notable. There has been tons of academic research and popular history written about the history of dating, college dating, the invention of the 'teenager,' etc. Even just within the United States.
I think I did a radio series on this once -- IIRC, Beth Bailey was a really great source. She wrote this fascinating book: http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-Back-Seat-Twentieth-Century/dp/0801839351. Susan J. Douglas was good too, as well as Stephanie Coontz and Barbara Ehrenreich. They are all American, though. Lots has been written about the UK too, but I'm not sure about other cultures/countries.
Thanks, Sue
-- Sue Gardner Executive Director Wikimedia Foundation
415 839 6885 office 415 816 9967 cell
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
On 24 October 2011 11:16, Daniel and Elizabeth Case dancase@frontiernet.net wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Nathan Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with. If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish, the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.
On the surface I tend to agree, but then I read the AfD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating
Daniel Case
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Apart from any content problems, the article had no context. It was not linked to what should be regarded as its parents. And that lack of coherence, combined with its specific terminology made it largely incomprehensible to people unfamiliar with American educational systems, aside from its social practices. For example, it is by no means universal that students live in residential colleges while attending university. I had a go at giving it some context so readers can go from one article to the next (specifically, from "courtship" to "dating" to "college dating") but I agree that it would be better if it was renamed, as the issues that are distinctive to dating in college/university could then be developed.
Gillian
On 25 October 2011 06:11, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
Yeah, personally I think the subject is notable. There has been tons of academic research and popular history written about the history of dating, college dating, the invention of the 'teenager,' etc. Even just within the United States.
I think I did a radio series on this once -- IIRC, Beth Bailey was a really great source. She wrote this fascinating book: http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-Back-Seat-Twentieth-Century/dp/0801839351 . Susan J. Douglas was good too, as well as Stephanie Coontz and Barbara Ehrenreich. They are all American, though. Lots has been written about the UK too, but I'm not sure about other cultures/countries.
Thanks, Sue
-- Sue Gardner Executive Director Wikimedia Foundation
415 839 6885 office 415 816 9967 cell
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
On 24 October 2011 11:16, Daniel and Elizabeth Case dancase@frontiernet.net wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Nathan Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with. If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish, the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.
On the surface I tend to agree, but then I read the AfD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating
Daniel Case
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
If you really want some entertainment, you should try reading the "dating" article. It includes such mind-blowing revelations as:
* Teenagers and tweens have been described as dating.
* There are reports that guys are asking out girls for dates by text messaging.
* When young people are in school, they have a lot of access to people their own age, and don't need tools such as online websites or dating services.
And of course lots of great gender stereotypes like:
* During much of human history... women "connived to trade beauty and sex for affluence and status".
* Educated women in many countries including Italy and Russia and the United States often find it difficult to have a career as well as raise a family; many delay finding a mate and having children and wonder if they're too accomplished that they won't be as appealing to men.
It also includes lots of random advice like:
* dating at a movie is advisable only if followed by a drink afterwards.
* men are attracted to 'curls', 'ribbons', 'bright colors', and women should 'avoid sarcasm.'
* Women can use 'pseudo-infantile motions such as the head-cock' and gaze intensely with widened eyes and laugh often, touch, and move in ways to emphasize their body's roundness, such as shrugging their shoulders or sit hugging their knees, to mimic buttock imagery.
I swear this stuff is in the article. I couldn't make this up!
And to illustrate the "Dating worldwide" section, they use the painting "The Rape Of The Sabines: The Abduction" which shows a guy with a sword carrying off a scantily clad damsel in distress. I guess our editors have some unique ideas on dating etiquette.
Ryan Kaldari
On 10/24/11 6:00 PM, Gillian White wrote:
Apart from any content problems, the article had no context. It was not linked to what should be regarded as its parents. And that lack of coherence, combined with its specific terminology made it largely incomprehensible to people unfamiliar with American educational systems, aside from its social practices. For example, it is by no means universal that students live in residential colleges while attending university. I had a go at giving it some context so readers can go from one article to the next (specifically, from "courtship" to "dating" to "college dating") but I agree that it would be better if it was renamed, as the issues that are distinctive to dating in college/university could then be developed.
Gillian
On 25 October 2011 06:11, Sue Gardner <sgardner@wikimedia.org mailto:sgardner@wikimedia.org> wrote:
Yeah, personally I think the subject is notable. There has been tons of academic research and popular history written about the history of dating, college dating, the invention of the 'teenager,' etc. Even just within the United States. I think I did a radio series on this once -- IIRC, Beth Bailey was a really great source. She wrote this fascinating book: http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-Back-Seat-Twentieth-Century/dp/0801839351. Susan J. Douglas was good too, as well as Stephanie Coontz and Barbara Ehrenreich. They are all American, though. Lots has been written about the UK too, but I'm not sure about other cultures/countries. Thanks, Sue -- Sue Gardner Executive Director Wikimedia Foundation 415 839 6885 <tel:415%20839%206885> office 415 816 9967 <tel:415%20816%209967> cell Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate On 24 October 2011 11:16, Daniel and Elizabeth Case <dancase@frontiernet.net <mailto:dancase@frontiernet.net>> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nathan > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM > To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy? > > I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with. > If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish, > the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias. > > > On the surface I tend to agree, but then I read the AfD: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating > > Daniel Case > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Wow.
Just...wow.
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkaldari@wikimedia.orgwrote:
** If you really want some entertainment, you should try reading the "dating" article. It includes such mind-blowing revelations as:
Teenagers and tweens have been described as dating.
There are reports that guys are asking out girls for dates by text
messaging.
- When young people are in school, they have a lot of access to people
their own age, and don't need tools such as online websites or dating services.
And of course lots of great gender stereotypes like:
- During much of human history... women "connived to trade beauty and sex
for affluence and status".
- Educated women in many countries including Italy and Russia and the
United States often find it difficult to have a career as well as raise a family; many delay finding a mate and having children and wonder if they're too accomplished that they won't be as appealing to men.
It also includes lots of random advice like:
dating at a movie is advisable only if followed by a drink afterwards.
men are attracted to 'curls', 'ribbons', 'bright colors', and women
should 'avoid sarcasm.'
- Women can use 'pseudo-infantile motions such as the head-cock' and gaze
intensely with widened eyes and laugh often, touch, and move in ways to emphasize their body's roundness, such as shrugging their shoulders or sit hugging their knees, to mimic buttock imagery.
I swear this stuff is in the article. I couldn't make this up!
And to illustrate the "Dating worldwide" section, they use the painting "The Rape Of The Sabines: The Abduction" which shows a guy with a sword carrying off a scantily clad damsel in distress. I guess our editors have some unique ideas on dating etiquette.
Ryan Kaldari
On 10/24/11 6:00 PM, Gillian White wrote:
Apart from any content problems, the article had no context. It was not linked to what should be regarded as its parents. And that lack of coherence, combined with its specific terminology made it largely incomprehensible to people unfamiliar with American educational systems, aside from its social practices. For example, it is by no means universal that students live in residential colleges while attending university. I had a go at giving it some context so readers can go from one article to the next (specifically, from "courtship" to "dating" to "college dating") but I agree that it would be better if it was renamed, as the issues that are distinctive to dating in college/university could then be developed.
Gillian
On 25 October 2011 06:11, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
Yeah, personally I think the subject is notable. There has been tons of academic research and popular history written about the history of dating, college dating, the invention of the 'teenager,' etc. Even just within the United States.
I think I did a radio series on this once -- IIRC, Beth Bailey was a really great source. She wrote this fascinating book:
http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-Back-Seat-Twentieth-Century/dp/0801839351 . Susan J. Douglas was good too, as well as Stephanie Coontz and Barbara Ehrenreich. They are all American, though. Lots has been written about the UK too, but I'm not sure about other cultures/countries.
Thanks, Sue
-- Sue Gardner Executive Director Wikimedia Foundation
415 839 6885 office 415 816 9967 cell
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
On 24 October 2011 11:16, Daniel and Elizabeth Case dancase@frontiernet.net wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Nathan Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with. If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish, the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.
On the surface I tend to agree, but then I read the AfD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating
Daniel Case
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing listGendergap@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
I had looked at this article and yes, it contains the sort of muddled stuff which sends me bonkers! Bad history and bad sociology mixed up with random advice and juvenile opinion. Errrrk. Makes you want to give up, although to be fair, it is a difficult topic to write on and would need considerable effort to make useful. I suppose, like many articles, it can best be considered a starting point.
The fact that the article is poorly written (and dubiously, if copiously footnoted) does not mean that many of those points Kaldari lists are untrue. In creating and criticising articles, we need to distinguish what we would LIKE to happen from what DOES happen. That applies to the encyclopedia in general as much as to topics concerning this list in particular. For example, women DO indeed struggle with the "double shift" of having a career and having a family. Women DID connive to trade beauty and sex for affluence and status (what else could they do?) and there are many examples of how significant this is historically, some of which should be used to explain the claim. More significant, though, is that women STILL do it, so it is pretty well undeniable and much as we would wish otherwise, unexceptionable. I am not sure if it is worse than men using attractive females to further their status - a practice barely reduced over the millennia and still common, indeed lauded, today.
Although the sections giving advice are ridiculous, even more annoying to me is the lack of understanding of the *Rape of the Sabine Women *as a subject for art. The most famous is Nicolas Poussin's 1636-7 Baroque version in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, NY. The 1870 version used unhelpfully and erroneously in the article is a pale 19th century piece of historicism. More important is that the word "rape" "...is a conventional translation of Latin *raptio*, which in this context means "abduction" rather than its prevalent modern meaning of sexual violation." The story [[The Rape of the Sabine Women]] is about abduction and it is in the context of the Romans subduing a people (the Sabines) famous for their bravery and austerity. As usual, taking the women was a part of the war and a part of the effort to Romanise a conquered people. It is not so much about dating or rape (as we now use the word) as about war and subjugation.
From the point of view of WP, there are germs of truth and germs of
misunderstanding all through the article and I use the word "germs" advisedly. In short, lots more work needed on this article!
Gillian
On 25 October 2011 16:24, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
Wow.
Just...wow.
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkaldari@wikimedia.orgwrote:
** If you really want some entertainment, you should try reading the "dating" article. It includes such mind-blowing revelations as:
Teenagers and tweens have been described as dating.
There are reports that guys are asking out girls for dates by text
messaging.
- When young people are in school, they have a lot of access to people
their own age, and don't need tools such as online websites or dating services.
And of course lots of great gender stereotypes like:
- During much of human history... women "connived to trade beauty and sex
for affluence and status".
- Educated women in many countries including Italy and Russia and the
United States often find it difficult to have a career as well as raise a family; many delay finding a mate and having children and wonder if they're too accomplished that they won't be as appealing to men.
It also includes lots of random advice like:
dating at a movie is advisable only if followed by a drink afterwards.
men are attracted to 'curls', 'ribbons', 'bright colors', and women
should 'avoid sarcasm.'
- Women can use 'pseudo-infantile motions such as the head-cock' and gaze
intensely with widened eyes and laugh often, touch, and move in ways to emphasize their body's roundness, such as shrugging their shoulders or sit hugging their knees, to mimic buttock imagery.
I swear this stuff is in the article. I couldn't make this up!
And to illustrate the "Dating worldwide" section, they use the painting "The Rape Of The Sabines: The Abduction" which shows a guy with a sword carrying off a scantily clad damsel in distress. I guess our editors have some unique ideas on dating etiquette.
Ryan Kaldari
On 10/24/11 6:00 PM, Gillian White wrote:
Apart from any content problems, the article had no context. It was not linked to what should be regarded as its parents. And that lack of coherence, combined with its specific terminology made it largely incomprehensible to people unfamiliar with American educational systems, aside from its social practices. For example, it is by no means universal that students live in residential colleges while attending university. I had a go at giving it some context so readers can go from one article to the next (specifically, from "courtship" to "dating" to "college dating") but I agree that it would be better if it was renamed, as the issues that are distinctive to dating in college/university could then be developed.
Gillian
On 25 October 2011 06:11, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
Yeah, personally I think the subject is notable. There has been tons of academic research and popular history written about the history of dating, college dating, the invention of the 'teenager,' etc. Even just within the United States.
I think I did a radio series on this once -- IIRC, Beth Bailey was a really great source. She wrote this fascinating book:
http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-Back-Seat-Twentieth-Century/dp/0801839351 . Susan J. Douglas was good too, as well as Stephanie Coontz and Barbara Ehrenreich. They are all American, though. Lots has been written about the UK too, but I'm not sure about other cultures/countries.
Thanks, Sue
-- Sue Gardner Executive Director Wikimedia Foundation
415 839 6885 office 415 816 9967 cell
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
On 24 October 2011 11:16, Daniel and Elizabeth Case dancase@frontiernet.net wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Nathan Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with. If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish, the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.
On the surface I tend to agree, but then I read the AfD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating
Daniel Case
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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Gendergap mailing listGendergap@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for Wikimedia http://www.glamwiki.org Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American Arthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch and Sarah Stierch Consulting
*Historical, cultural & artistic research & advising.*
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....I also noticed the menu in the top right lists dating in the abuse section (and activities).
I understand that abuse can take place during dating (and any other relationship at that) but does it really merit being in the abuse section? Next to "child" "elderly" and "domestic?"
If you're dating someone and you're abusing them I consider it domestic (Intimate Partner Violence, etc.)....but, I haven't sat down and read references about 'dating abuse' or whatever (and I probably won't right now..). Heck, the word "abuse" isn't even used in the dating article.
If abuse is dating and I need to stop being sarcastic and wear more bright colors..I suppose I've been doing all of this wrong after all...(now wonder I'm single! ;-) )
Sarah
On 25 October 2011 16:24, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
Wow.
Just...wow.
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkaldari@wikimedia.orgwrote:
If you really want some entertainment, you should try reading the "dating" article. It includes such mind-blowing revelations as:
Teenagers and tweens have been described as dating.
There are reports that guys are asking out girls for dates by text
messaging.
- When young people are in school, they have a lot of access to people
their own age, and don't need tools such as online websites or dating services.
And of course lots of great gender stereotypes like:
- During much of human history... women "connived to trade beauty and sex
for affluence and status".
- Educated women in many countries including Italy and Russia and the
United States often find it difficult to have a career as well as raise a family; many delay finding a mate and having children and wonder if they're too accomplished that they won't be as appealing to men.
It also includes lots of random advice like:
dating at a movie is advisable only if followed by a drink afterwards.
men are attracted to 'curls', 'ribbons', 'bright colors', and women
should 'avoid sarcasm.'
- Women can use 'pseudo-infantile motions such as the head-cock' and gaze
intensely with widened eyes and laugh often, touch, and move in ways to emphasize their body's roundness, such as shrugging their shoulders or sit hugging their knees, to mimic buttock imagery.
I swear this stuff is in the article. I couldn't make this up!
And to illustrate the "Dating worldwide" section, they use the painting "The Rape Of The Sabines: The Abduction" which shows a guy with a sword carrying off a scantily clad damsel in distress. I guess our editors have some unique ideas on dating etiquette.
Ryan Kaldari
On 10/24/11 6:00 PM, Gillian White wrote:
Apart from any content problems, the article had no context. It was not linked to what should be regarded as its parents. And that lack of coherence, combined with its specific terminology made it largely incomprehensible to people unfamiliar with American educational systems, aside from its social practices. For example, it is by no means universal that students live in residential colleges while attending university. I had a go at giving it some context so readers can go from one article to the next (specifically, from "courtship" to "dating" to "college dating") but I agree that it would be better if it was renamed, as the issues that are distinctive to dating in college/university could then be developed.
Gillian
On 25 October 2011 06:11, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
Yeah, personally I think the subject is notable. There has been tons of academic research and popular history written about the history of dating, college dating, the invention of the 'teenager,' etc. Even just within the United States.
I think I did a radio series on this once -- IIRC, Beth Bailey was a really great source. She wrote this fascinating book:
http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-Back-Seat-Twentieth-Century/dp/0801839351 . Susan J. Douglas was good too, as well as Stephanie Coontz and Barbara Ehrenreich. They are all American, though. Lots has been written about the UK too, but I'm not sure about other cultures/countries.
Thanks, Sue
-- Sue Gardner Executive Director Wikimedia Foundation
415 839 6885 office 415 816 9967 cell
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
On 24 October 2011 11:16, Daniel and Elizabeth Case dancase@frontiernet.net wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Nathan Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin with. If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish, the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.
On the surface I tend to agree, but then I read the AfD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating
Daniel Case
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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Gendergap mailing listGendergap@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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-- GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for Wikimedia http://www.glamwiki.org Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American Arthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch and Sarah Stierch Consulting
*Historical, cultural & artistic research & advising.*
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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...and one more thing - it's also the straight peoples guide to dating.
And the majority of queer mentions go into internet dating with specific focus on gay men (the word "lesbian" is used once, a mention of transexuals is there twice but the same fact in both places - and it's in conjunction with eunuchs in India, and bi/pan/whatnot isn't listed at all).
Homosexuality is also called an "alternative arrangement."
Heh!
-Sarah who has recently become fascinated by the "gay agenda" article only to find out there isn't a "feminist agenda" article....
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:08 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.comwrote:
....I also noticed the menu in the top right lists dating in the abuse section (and activities).
I understand that abuse can take place during dating (and any other relationship at that) but does it really merit being in the abuse section? Next to "child" "elderly" and "domestic?"
If you're dating someone and you're abusing them I consider it domestic (Intimate Partner Violence, etc.)....but, I haven't sat down and read references about 'dating abuse' or whatever (and I probably won't right now..). Heck, the word "abuse" isn't even used in the dating article.
If abuse is dating and I need to stop being sarcastic and wear more bright colors..I suppose I've been doing all of this wrong after all...(now wonder I'm single! ;-) )
Sarah
On 25 October 2011 16:24, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
Wow.
Just...wow.
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkaldari@wikimedia.orgwrote:
If you really want some entertainment, you should try reading the "dating" article. It includes such mind-blowing revelations as:
Teenagers and tweens have been described as dating.
There are reports that guys are asking out girls for dates by text
messaging.
- When young people are in school, they have a lot of access to people
their own age, and don't need tools such as online websites or dating services.
And of course lots of great gender stereotypes like:
- During much of human history... women "connived to trade beauty and
sex for affluence and status".
- Educated women in many countries including Italy and Russia and the
United States often find it difficult to have a career as well as raise a family; many delay finding a mate and having children and wonder if they're too accomplished that they won't be as appealing to men.
It also includes lots of random advice like:
dating at a movie is advisable only if followed by a drink afterwards.
men are attracted to 'curls', 'ribbons', 'bright colors', and women
should 'avoid sarcasm.'
- Women can use 'pseudo-infantile motions such as the head-cock' and
gaze intensely with widened eyes and laugh often, touch, and move in ways to emphasize their body's roundness, such as shrugging their shoulders or sit hugging their knees, to mimic buttock imagery.
I swear this stuff is in the article. I couldn't make this up!
And to illustrate the "Dating worldwide" section, they use the painting "The Rape Of The Sabines: The Abduction" which shows a guy with a sword carrying off a scantily clad damsel in distress. I guess our editors have some unique ideas on dating etiquette.
Ryan Kaldari
On 10/24/11 6:00 PM, Gillian White wrote:
Apart from any content problems, the article had no context. It was not linked to what should be regarded as its parents. And that lack of coherence, combined with its specific terminology made it largely incomprehensible to people unfamiliar with American educational systems, aside from its social practices. For example, it is by no means universal that students live in residential colleges while attending university. I had a go at giving it some context so readers can go from one article to the next (specifically, from "courtship" to "dating" to "college dating") but I agree that it would be better if it was renamed, as the issues that are distinctive to dating in college/university could then be developed.
Gillian
On 25 October 2011 06:11, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
Yeah, personally I think the subject is notable. There has been tons of academic research and popular history written about the history of dating, college dating, the invention of the 'teenager,' etc. Even just within the United States.
I think I did a radio series on this once -- IIRC, Beth Bailey was a really great source. She wrote this fascinating book:
http://www.amazon.com/Front-Porch-Back-Seat-Twentieth-Century/dp/0801839351 . Susan J. Douglas was good too, as well as Stephanie Coontz and Barbara Ehrenreich. They are all American, though. Lots has been written about the UK too, but I'm not sure about other cultures/countries.
Thanks, Sue
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On 24 October 2011 11:16, Daniel and Elizabeth Case dancase@frontiernet.net wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Nathan Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:13 PM To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?
I question whether "college dating" deserves an article to begin
with.
If it does, which the text of the article doesn't at all establish, the current article has a pretty fatal case of systemic bias.
On the surface I tend to agree, but then I read the AfD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/College_dating
Daniel Case
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On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkaldari@wikimedia.orgwrote:
** If you really want some entertainment, you should try reading the "dating" article. It includes such mind-blowing revelations as:
Mr. Kaldari?
Best. Post. Ever.
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Well, it's not rectified yet. The one source I've given thus far is not enough apparently. I have to add more.
Already done:
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/25/nyregion/new-policy-is-aimed-at-preventing... http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=College_dating&diff=457185120&...
Daniel Case
Not convinced by the AfD. "Snow" kept after less than 24 hours, based on one substantial vote and a bunch of "what he said" votes that didn't address whether "college dating" is so distinct a phenomena that it needs to be treated separately from [[dating]]. A search string of +college +dating is obviously going to return a lot of results, that doesn't prove notability - and notability isn't the only concern.
Thanks! Does someone here have access to the full article at http://gas.sagepub.com/content/3/4/457.short?
LoS
On 10/24/11, Daniel and Elizabeth Case dancase@frontiernet.net wrote:
Well, it's not rectified yet. The one source I've given thus far is not enough apparently. I have to add more.
Already done:http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/25/nyregion/new-policy-is-aimed-at-preventing...
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=College_dating&diff=457185120&...
Daniel Case
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*It would not have to be a gender related issue for this to occur.*
Fred is right in that point. I'm not a gender editor (my articles almost never have problems with gender issues), however, the topic is one where you can find the most biased people on earth: Religion.
And I would say you case was not the worst one, the worst case i can imagine (and already happened with me several times) is to remove biased info (or include NPOV info) in an article about a religion / god / dogma who is watched by some believer of the same god / religion. ;) _____ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt (351) 963 953 042
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On 24 October 2011 18:54, Fred Bauder fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
I've never particularly felt the "boys club" atmosphere on Wikipedia that apparently deters some women. However, I am very angry right now. I tried to add [[date rape]] as a "see also" link to the very incomplete article [[college dating]]. The relevance seemed obvious to me. It was removed by two separate people, and when I took it to the talk page, its relevance was questioned, and I was told to "prove it" because it was "obvious to whom?" Fine. I've proven it with sourcing, adding a small section. I think that needed to happen anyway, but I'm infuriated that I could not just add a see also link to it and tell the students who are really working on the article that a section needed adding. (The people who removed the link are seasoned Wikipedians, not members of the class developing the article.) Am I crazy?
LadyofShalott
No, that is the usual reaction of biased editors of all persuasions, to throw their mind out of gear, when obvious conclusions which contradict their bias are advanced.
It would not have to be a gender related issue for this to occur.
Fred
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