Fred,
I agree with you. Especially with handkraft information, there won't be 'references'. You can't reference what your grandmother or great-grandmother taught you. Same is true with fairytales or folklore. I'd like to post some of the Irish tales my grandmother taught me. I haven't seen them published. It would be a shame for them to die because some bonehead decided there should be a published 'reference'. Which means I won't be able to post what I know, what isn't in any of the hundreds of sewing books I own, from the 19th century til 2011. So, I'm rethinking my plans of eventual posting. I don't want to get caught in a shit storm. What I love is what I love, I don't want it spoiled by argument.
Plus Danese's article about the car wasn't self-published, so where's the catch? Let it stand...
- Susan
Message: 5 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:48:09 -0600 (MDT) From: "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Woman posting on Wikipedia about knitting, needs investigating To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 40246.66.243.192.69.1302731289.squirrel@webmail.fairpoint.net Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 13:35, Sarah Stierch sarah@sarahstierch.com wrote:
Wow, the talk page is insane, and is one reason why I "gave up" in the beginning.
I might take a stab on my own userspace to re-write this article. I'm somewhat addicted fixing crappy BLP's. Perhaps I'll send it your way (here) before I post it.
Could someone say again which article and talk page we're discussing? I've looked at this one -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danese_Cooper -- but can't see the issue. Ditto with the talk page.
Sarah
Here is the removal of the information about knitting:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooper&am...
Removed again:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooper&am...
This is where it was put in:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooper&am...
Seems harmless enough, and hardly requires a substantial reference.
Fred
Hi. I actually brought up the issues with the references. While the second article about the car is not self-published, it does not state in the article that Danese is related to the owner of the vehicle or is named after. While she leaves a comment thanking them for the information about the Nardi-Danese Alfa Romeo Roadster, it is not cited in the article. The latter part I'd consider self-published (her post). Perhaps I'm wrong.
The other source is also from forums, which I also think are considered self-published. Again, I could be wrong in this?
On another note, I think it'd be really great to see your families writing documented. Perhaps there are other options for their release into the Wiki world. Perhaps even Commons, by making oral history recordings.
I hate being Debbie Downer, I just know that if it's not cited appropriately, it'll be questioned. If someone wants to add the information, go for it. I already did my part to re-write the article, and Fred lent a hand too.
:D
Sarah
On 4/14/2011 3:12 PM, Susan Spencer wrote:
Fred,
I agree with you. Especially with handkraft information, there won't be 'references'. You can't reference what your grandmother or great-grandmother taught you. Same is true with fairytales or folklore. I'd like to post some of the Irish tales my grandmother taught me. I haven't seen them published. It would be a shame for them to die because some bonehead decided there should be a published 'reference'. Which means I won't be able to post what I know, what isn't in any of the hundreds of sewing books I own, from the 19th century til 2011. So, I'm rethinking my plans of eventual posting. I don't want to get caught in a shit storm. What I love is what I love, I don't want it spoiled by argument.
Plus Danese's article about the car wasn't self-published, so where's the catch? Let it stand...
Susan
Message: 5 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:48:09 -0600 (MDT) From: "Fred Bauder" <fredbaud@fairpoint.net mailto:fredbaud@fairpoint.net> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Woman posting on Wikipedia about knitting, needs investigating To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" <gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <40246.66.243.192.69.1302731289.squirrel@webmail.fairpoint.net mailto:40246.66.243.192.69.1302731289.squirrel@webmail.fairpoint.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 13:35, Sarah Stierch
<sarah@sarahstierch.com mailto:sarah@sarahstierch.com>
wrote:
Wow, the talk page is insane, and is one reason why I "gave up"
in the
beginning.
I might take a stab on my own userspace to re-write this
article. I'm
somewhat addicted fixing crappy BLP's. Perhaps I'll send it
your way
(here) before I post it.
Could someone say again which article and talk page we're
discussing?
I've looked at this one -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danese_Cooper -- but can't see the
issue.
Ditto with the talk page.
Sarah
Here is the removal of the information about knitting:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooper&am... https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooper&diff=347000261&oldid=345360328
Removed again:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooper&am... https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooper&diff=347000261&oldid=345360328
This is where it was put in:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooper&am... https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Danese_Cooper&diff=prev&oldid=341488635
Seems harmless enough, and hardly requires a substantial reference.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 14:21, Sarah Stierch sarah@sarahstierch.com wrote:
Hi. I actually brought up the issues with the references. While the second article about the car is not self-published, it does not state in the article that Danese is related to the owner of the vehicle or is named after. While she leaves a comment thanking them for the information about the Nardi-Danese Alfa Romeo Roadster, it is not cited in the article. The latter part I'd consider self-published (her post). Perhaps I'm wrong.
Sarah, just to let you know that self-published material is allowed as a source in the Wikipedia article about the author of the self-published material (and in some other circumstances too, if the source is an expert).
In this case, if Danese has written about the car on her personal website, that can be used as a source in the article about her. The limits of this are, among others, (a) there should be no reasonable doubt that she's the author; (b) the material should not be unduly self-serving (doesn't apply here); and (c) it should not involve discussion of third parties, especially living people -- but discussing her father in this case would be fine.
The policy on that is here for future reference -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SELFPUB#Self-published_and_questionab...
Hope this helps,
It does! Thanks fellow-Sarah!
To be honest, my early editing experiences often make me a more paranoid when writing BLPs, so perhaps I took the rules too seriously myself!
Thank you again, a little guidance and clarity always goes a long way :)
Sent via iPhone - I apologize in advance for my shortness or errors! :)
On Apr 14, 2011, at 6:26 PM, Sarah slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 14:21, Sarah Stierch sarah@sarahstierch.com wrote:
Hi. I actually brought up the issues with the references. While the second article about the car is not self-published, it does not state in the article that Danese is related to the owner of the vehicle or is named after. While she leaves a comment thanking them for the information about the Nardi-Danese Alfa Romeo Roadster, it is not cited in the article. The latter part I'd consider self-published (her post). Perhaps I'm wrong.
Sarah, just to let you know that self-published material is allowed as a source in the Wikipedia article about the author of the self-published material (and in some other circumstances too, if the source is an expert).
In this case, if Danese has written about the car on her personal website, that can be used as a source in the article about her. The limits of this are, among others, (a) there should be no reasonable doubt that she's the author; (b) the material should not be unduly self-serving (doesn't apply here); and (c) it should not involve discussion of third parties, especially living people -- but discussing her father in this case would be fine.
The policy on that is here for future reference -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SELFPUB#Self-published_and_questionab...
Hope this helps,
Fred,
I agree with you. Especially with handkraft information, there won't be 'references'. You can't reference what your grandmother or great-grandmother taught you. Same is true with fairytales or folklore. I'd like to post some of the Irish tales my grandmother taught me. I haven't seen them published. It would be a shame for them to die because some bonehead decided there should be a published 'reference'. Which means I won't be able to post what I know, what isn't in any of the hundreds of sewing books I own, from the 19th century til 2011. So, I'm rethinking my plans of eventual posting.
- Susan
Wikibooks for most of that; Wikisource if it's published and in the public domain. You're right to not fight. Plenty of opportunity for that will come along concerning important issues.
Fred