Information for the list
This is the email I sent Sandra; hardly "a long email back stating that feminism shouldn't be about revenge. ..."
Sandra could we see the email you think you got?
Fred
--------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Women4Wikipedia From: "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net Date: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:03 pm To: "Sandra" sandratordonez@gmail.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Serious, but actually it can be funny. A feminized environment is awkward for a man and provides opportunity for humor.
Fred
Fred r u being funny or serious - I can't tell.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 17, 2011, at 7:39 PM, "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if 85% of its editors were female?
regards
Rosie Williams
@collectiveact
It would be pretty awful. Scenes like that are not welcoming.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Fred, exactly why do you think hanging out in a woman-friendly environment would be so terrible? Perhaps if you could itemize for us what's wrong with people with vaginas being all up in your world, we could actually have a discussion on the topic.
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Fred Bauder fredbaud@fairpoint.netwrote:
Information for the list
This is the email I sent Sandra; hardly "a long email back stating that feminism shouldn't be about revenge. ..."
Sandra could we see the email you think you got?
Fred
--------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Women4Wikipedia From: "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net Date: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:03 pm To: "Sandra" sandratordonez@gmail.com
Serious, but actually it can be funny. A feminized environment is awkward for a man and provides opportunity for humor.
Fred
Fred r u being funny or serious - I can't tell.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 17, 2011, at 7:39 PM, "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if 85% of its editors were female?
regards
Rosie Williams
@collectiveact
It would be pretty awful. Scenes like that are not welcoming.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
No man - this is what you sent. A long response for the simple question I asked: Are you being serious or funny.
*sounded serious.
And seriously: being a man under female supprression is not an appealing vision, very much like being a woman suppressed by males.
as long as all men will assume that feminism is about revenge rather than equality, visions of a female dominated <something> will feel scary.
Poor guy, i'd say.*
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Fred Bauder fredbaud@fairpoint.netwrote:
Information for the list
This is the email I sent Sandra; hardly "a long email back stating that feminism shouldn't be about revenge. ..."
Sandra could we see the email you think you got?
Fred
--------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Women4Wikipedia From: "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net Date: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:03 pm To: "Sandra" sandratordonez@gmail.com
Serious, but actually it can be funny. A feminized environment is awkward for a man and provides opportunity for humor.
Fred
Fred r u being funny or serious - I can't tell.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 17, 2011, at 7:39 PM, "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if 85% of its editors were female?
regards
Rosie Williams
@collectiveact
It would be pretty awful. Scenes like that are not welcoming.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
No man - this is what you sent. A long response for the simple question I asked: Are you being serious or funny.
*sounded serious.
And seriously: being a man under female supprression is not an appealing vision, very much like being a woman suppressed by males.
as long as all men will assume that feminism is about revenge rather than equality, visions of a female dominated <something> will feel scary.
Poor guy, i'd say.*
That's from someone else.
Fred
Well, that what I was responding to!! I find that count to have a bit of sexist undertones! Sorry if u thought I was responding to u. I am just getting frustrated w/ certain interactions that seem the opposite of what we are trying to do here - make women feel comfortable to share and brainstorm etc.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 18, 2011, at 11:41 AM, "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
No man - this is what you sent. A long response for the simple question I asked: Are you being serious or funny.
*sounded serious.
And seriously: being a man under female supprression is not an appealing vision, very much like being a woman suppressed by males.
as long as all men will assume that feminism is about revenge rather than equality, visions of a female dominated <something> will feel scary.
Poor guy, i'd say.*
That's from someone else.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Well, that what I was responding to!! I find that count to have a bit of sexist undertones! Sorry if u thought I was responding to u. I am just getting frustrated w/ certain interactions that seem the opposite of what we are trying to do here - make women feel comfortable to share and brainstorm etc.
Sent from my iPhone
That message was from Hartmut Semken:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2011-February/000571.html
who signed themselves "hase" There is a snicklefritz image at
That has been their only post. I didn't like it either, so much so that avoided responding to it. It seemed to me to be a woman, "as long as all men will assume that feminism is about revenge rather than equality, visions of a female dominated <something> will feel scary.
Poor guy, i'd say." and seemed to refer to me. That, however, is what he said, not what I said.
I think we got trolled.
Fred
On Feb 18, 2011, at 11:41 AM, "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
No man - this is what you sent. A long response for the simple question I asked: Are you being serious or funny.
*sounded serious.
And seriously: being a man under female supprression is not an appealing vision, very much like being a woman suppressed by males.
as long as all men will assume that feminism is about revenge rather than equality, visions of a female dominated <something> will feel scary.
Poor guy, i'd say.*
That's from someone else.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
I suspect I'm not the only one who's getting a little irritated with the development of a highly individual-oriented dispute on this list. Please, guys -- if you really feel the need to dissect who said what when, and what they meant by it -- please take it somewhere that the majority of people reading your messages also care.
-Pete
I suspect I'm not the only one who's getting a little irritated with the development of a highly individual-oriented dispute on this list. Please, guys -- if you really feel the need to dissect who said what when, and what they meant by it -- please take it somewhere that the majority of people reading your messages also care.
-Pete
We need to discuss the dynamics of the list to a certain extent. Not that we will necessarily resolve things satisfactorily. I spent a year of two on a e-list Netdynamics about 10 years ago. We can be more or less productive depending on how we act.
Fred
Well, maybe someone can be nominated as a person responsible for calling out things that can be interpreted as sexist in nature or inappropriate, that way that pressure doesn't fall on the members of the group. Because there is no way, that on a gender gap mailing list, that I'm going to sit back and let those things slide. Maybe someone from the foundation can volunteer. As long as I know that those comments are being addressed, whether on the mailing list or off the mailing list, I'm fine. But i would be alot quieter if I got that reassurance.
Sandra and Fred,
Considering how quickly you guys resolved this after I sent my message, I regret that I said anything -- I would have done better to sit back and let you guys sort it out. 20/20 hindsight. Sorry.
I do think that an often-overlooked option is to send a message privately, and make sure you understand what somebody was trying to say, before making public assumptions/accusations. It's possible that was not a good option in this case for reasons I'm not aware of. But it might be a good thing for us all to keep in mind, on a list where misunderstandings and disagreements are likely to be fairly common.
-Pete
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Sandra ordonez sandratordonez@gmail.comwrote:
Well, maybe someone can be nominated as a person responsible for calling out things that can be interpreted as sexist in nature or inappropriate, that way that pressure doesn't fall on the members of the group. Because there is no way, that on a gender gap mailing list, that I'm going to sit back and let those things slide. Maybe someone from the foundation can volunteer. As long as I know that those comments are being addressed, whether on the mailing list or off the mailing list, I'm fine. But i would be alot quieter if I got that reassurance.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
and i apologize for responding to much in this list serve - I realize that I have been. I don't want to add to the problem. It just comes from my passion for this group, and some times "the passion" gets the best of me. I promise to lurk more. lol
Thanks for clearing that fred, and thank you for expressing that sentiment as well. It means a lot to me to hear you say that.
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Fred Bauder fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
Well, that what I was responding to!! I find that count to have a bit of sexist undertones! Sorry if u thought I was responding to u. I am just getting frustrated w/ certain interactions that seem the opposite of what we are trying to do here - make women feel comfortable to share and brainstorm etc.
Sent from my iPhone
That message was from Hartmut Semken:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2011-February/000571.html
who signed themselves "hase" There is a snicklefritz image at
That has been their only post. I didn't like it either, so much so that avoided responding to it. It seemed to me to be a woman, "as long as all men will assume that feminism is about revenge rather than equality, visions of a female dominated <something> will feel scary.
Poor guy, i'd say." and seemed to refer to me. That, however, is what he said, not what I said.
I think we got trolled.
Fred
On Feb 18, 2011, at 11:41 AM, "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
No man - this is what you sent. A long response for the simple question I asked: Are you being serious or funny.
*sounded serious.
And seriously: being a man under female supprression is not an appealing vision, very much like being a woman suppressed by males.
as long as all men will assume that feminism is about revenge rather than equality, visions of a female dominated <something> will feel scary.
Poor guy, i'd say.*
That's from someone else.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Fred, exactly why do you think hanging out in a woman-friendly environment would be so terrible? Perhaps if you could itemize for us what's wrong with people with vaginas being all up in your world, we could actually have a discussion on the topic.
A feminized environment is something rather different from a woman-friendly environment just as a masculinized environment such as a biker bar is different from an environment which welcomes men.
Your language is interesting. Vaginas are hardly the center of attention in either a feminized or woman-friendly environment. As to "people with vaginas being all up in [my] world", certainly there are issues, but troublesome people come in all genders.
Fred
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Fred Bauder fredbaud@fairpoint.netwrote:
Information for the list
This is the email I sent Sandra; hardly "a long email back stating that feminism shouldn't be about revenge. ..."
Sandra could we see the email you think you got?
Fred
--------------------------- Original Message
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Women4Wikipedia From: "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net Date: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:03 pm To: "Sandra" sandratordonez@gmail.com
Serious, but actually it can be funny. A feminized environment is awkward for a man and provides opportunity for humor.
Fred
Fred r u being funny or serious - I can't tell.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 17, 2011, at 7:39 PM, "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if
85%
of its editors were female?
regards
Rosie Williams
@collectiveact
It would be pretty awful. Scenes like that are not welcoming.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
This is what I'm talking about - So the comment that had sexist undertones is not being discussed, but the fact that a comment was used to express frustrations is being analyzed? There has to be a commitment on this list that we are not going to reproduce the same behavior and environments that are so unattractive to women in the first place. Saying that someone is "scared" of a group with a high percentage of women, or telling a woman "ohh your wrong" when she shares her experience, is really not cool - particularly on this lsit!
sandy
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Fred Bauder fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
Fred, exactly why do you think hanging out in a woman-friendly environment would be so terrible? Perhaps if you could itemize for us what's wrong with people with vaginas being all up in your world, we could actually have a discussion on the topic.
A feminized environment is something rather different from a woman-friendly environment just as a masculinized environment such as a biker bar is different from an environment which welcomes men.
Your language is interesting. Vaginas are hardly the center of attention in either a feminized or woman-friendly environment. As to "people with vaginas being all up in [my] world", certainly there are issues, but troublesome people come in all genders.
Fred
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Fred Bauder fredbaud@fairpoint.netwrote:
Information for the list
This is the email I sent Sandra; hardly "a long email back stating that feminism shouldn't be about revenge. ..."
Sandra could we see the email you think you got?
Fred
--------------------------- Original Message
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Women4Wikipedia From: "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net Date: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:03 pm To: "Sandra" sandratordonez@gmail.com
Serious, but actually it can be funny. A feminized environment is awkward for a man and provides opportunity for humor.
Fred
Fred r u being funny or serious - I can't tell.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 17, 2011, at 7:39 PM, "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if
85%
of its editors were female?
regards
Rosie Williams
@collectiveact
It would be pretty awful. Scenes like that are not welcoming.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Dear Moderator (Sue? SlimVirgin? Hi!),
I apparently just sent a message from the wrong email account -- and I'm glad I did, because I'd prefer if you do NOT post it.
I'll send something a little less reactionary off-list.
-Pete
If there is an automatic "reply to individuals" response - with "reply all" an option - that might help. Some mailing list programs have that.
It encourages people to think about if they want responses to go to the whole list - and if they should.
Some people might have to go back and reply to whole list because of an error; but it's better than seeing a lot of posts just as well sent to just one person and continuing among two or three people.
Thanks
Cm in DC
If you want a to write a thread to a supportive group so you might figure how to address a situation that bothers you without being invalidated, Wikichix is more appropriate list this one.
If you want to write a thread about how we might achieve results in narrowing the gender-gap on Wikipedia and seeing some sort of shift happen within an open community this is the list to use.
Those are not value judgments. Both desires are valid and appropriate; just different.
Wikipedia is an open wiki. This means that every element of humanity that you despise, every element that despises what you love, and even elements which you were never really acquainted with before exist there. And none of these elements can be removed. They can be avoided. They can be mitigated. But they will *always* be popping up. If we are going to wait until Wikipedia, or any open wiki, only involves dealing with people who are committed to being "cool" (liberal; in the older sense of the word), it will never happen. We have to shift the participation level on the wikis *as they exist*; not as we would like them to exist. Full of human beings from different cultures, with different understandings, and different capacities for empathy. We need to increase participation of women even as they are offended and confronted with misogyny. Not remove offense and misogyny in order to increase the participation of women. That is just not going to work on an open wiki. You can manage the removal of the most offensive and misogynist elements if you are reasonable and dedicated to doing so. But in an absolute sense it will not make much difference. Those women who are turned off by the things that have been used as examples here these past few day, will still be turned off by what remains when those examples and everything of a similar level has been removed. There are many valid reasons for wanting so see the examples being brought here changed, but increasing the participation of women is not really one of them.
We will not succeed in closing the gender gap by spending our efforts failing to remove everything from an open wiki that turns women off Wikipedia. We will succeed in closing the gender gap when we are able to reach women and bring their attention to things in Wikipedia that will turn them on. Merely seeing an open wiki become somewhat less offensive to women will not make women passionate about Wikipedia. But women who are passionate about Wikipedia will give much less weight to those elements within an open wiki that offend them.
Birgitte SB
From: Sandra ordonez sandratordonez@gmail.com To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Fri, February 18, 2011 11:09:31 AM Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Fwd: Re: Women4Wikipedia]
This is what I'm talking about - So the comment that had sexist undertones is not being discussed, but the fact that a comment was used to express frustrations is being analyzed? There has to be a commitment on this list that we are not going to reproduce the same behavior and environments that are so unattractive to women in the first place. Saying that someone is "scared" of a group with a high percentage of women, or telling a woman "ohh your wrong" when she shares her experience, is really not cool - particularly on this lsit!
sandy
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Fred Bauder fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
Fred, exactly why do you think hanging out in a woman-friendly
environment would be so terrible? Perhaps if you could itemize for us what's wrong with people with vaginas being all up in your world, we could actually have a discussion on the topic.
A feminized environment is something rather different from a woman-friendly environment just as a masculinized environment such as a biker bar is different from an environment which welcomes men.
Your language is interesting. Vaginas are hardly the center of attention in either a feminized or woman-friendly environment. As to "people with vaginas being all up in [my] world", certainly there are issues, but troublesome people come in all genders.
Fred
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Fred Bauder fredbaud@fairpoint.netwrote:
Information for the list
This is the email I sent Sandra; hardly "a long email back stating that feminism shouldn't be about revenge. ..."
Sandra could we see the email you think you got?
Fred
--------------------------- Original Message
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Women4Wikipedia From: "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net Date: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:03 pm To: "Sandra" sandratordonez@gmail.com
Serious, but actually it can be funny. A feminized environment is awkward for a man and provides opportunity for humor.
Fred
Fred r u being funny or serious - I can't tell.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 17, 2011, at 7:39 PM, "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
> > It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if
85%
> of > its editors were female? > > > > regards > > Rosie Williams > > http://women4wikipedia > > @collectiveact
It would be pretty awful. Scenes like that are not welcoming.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- Sandra Ordonez Web Astronaut
"Helping you rock out in the virtual world."
www.collaborativenation.com
--- On Sat, 19/2/11, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:From: Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Fwd: Re: Women4Wikipedia] To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Saturday, 19 February, 2011, 2:23
If you want a to write a thread to a supportive group so you might figure how to address a situation that bothers you without being invalidated, Wikichix is more appropriate list this one.
If you want to write a thread about how we might achieve results in narrowing the gender-gap on Wikipedia and seeing some sort of shift happen within an open community this is the list to use.
Those are not value judgments. Both desires are valid and appropriate; just different.
Wikipedia is an open wiki. This means that every element of humanity that you despise, every element that despises what you love, and even elements which you were never really acquainted with before exist there. And none of these elements can be removed. They can be avoided. They can be mitigated. But they will *always* be popping up. If we are going to wait until Wikipedia, or any open wiki, only involves dealing with people who are committed to being "cool" (liberal; in the older sense of the word), it will never happen. We have to shift the participation level on the wikis *as they exist*; not as we would like them to exist. Full of human beings from different cultures, with different understandings, and different capacities for empathy. We need to increase participation of women even as they are offended and confronted with misogyny. Not remove offense and misogyny in order to increase the participation of women. That is just not going to work on an open wiki. You can manage the removal of the most offensive and misogynist elements if you are reasonable and dedicated to doing so. But in an absolute sense it will not make much difference. Those women who are turned off by the things that have been used as examples here these past few day, will still be turned off by what remains when those examples and everything of a similar level has been removed. There are many valid reasons for wanting so see the examples being brought here changed, but increasing the participation of women is not really one of them.
We will not succeed in closing the gender gap by spending our efforts failing to remove everything from an open wiki that turns women off Wikipedia. We will succeed in closing the gender gap when we are able to reach women and bring their attention to things in Wikipedia that will turn them on. Merely seeing an open wiki become somewhat less offensive to women will not make women passionate about Wikipedia. But women who are passionate about Wikipedia will give much less weight to those elements within an open wiki that offend them.
Birgitte SB That was the best word on the matter so far. Bravo. Andreas
Fred, exactly why do you think hanging out in a woman-friendly environment would be so terrible?
For the record, if anyone thinks from my long post about yoga that I think that way, they're wrong. I do keep doing it, after all. And I have had some predominantly female work environments as well.
Daniel Case
Fred, exactly why do you think hanging out in a woman-friendly environment would be so terrible?
For the record, if anyone thinks from my long post about yoga that I think that way, they're wrong. I do keep doing it, after all. And I have had some predominantly female work environments as well.
Daniel Case_______________________________________________
I have no objection whatever to an environment that is woman-friendly and support making Wikipedia more woman-friendly.
As to yoga, I'm a fan, of Arjuna.
Fred