carol rightly pointed out to not mix mail threads, so let me create a dedicated thread. do you think there is a possibility to address the source of anger, and dealing with anger in a better way we do now? see for some initial reasoning below. my hypothesis is that 95% of wikiverse harassment falls in the "anger" category. many examples i saw up to now were caused by some sort of ignorance, on purpose or without knowing.
best, rupert
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com Date: Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 7:49 AM Subject: Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats! To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects." gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
anne, thank you so much, for the first time i think i understand the problem. "rot in hell" is a very good example of anger. anger is something common on wikipedia, anger management is something surprisingly ignored. i never read about it in a mailing list, and i do not know a single person in the movement being expert in it. there are texts like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_angry_mastodons, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Staying_cool_when_the_editing_gets_h... which do not really address anger. i tried to search for links with the keywords "draw your anger", see below.
one of the links which came up is a book called "Helping Your Kids Deal with Anger, Fear, and Sadness". let me cite a couple of sentences: "anger is an emotion, aggression is an action. many confuse anger with aggression ... when we do not understand our anger and allow it to get out of control, it can lead to aggressive behaviors that are sinful, dangerous, and even deadly. the emotion of anger itself is not the problem ... the real problem is the mismanagement and misunderstanding of the emotion." "Anger: a secondary emotion: ... emotions that most frequently precede anger fear, hurt, frustration." " give them both a way of venting their anger .. when you've got your anger out, we'll talk about it"
* https://books.google.ch/books?id=crqTOLr1CQwC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&d... * http://www.apa.org/topics/anger/control.aspx * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsVq5R_F6RA
rupert
On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 10:30 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
Rupert, I suppose I'm jaded by some of the things that people have characterized as a death threat over the years. Nasty as it may be to say "rot in hell", that's not a death threat. It was an interesting challenge to explain to someone once that "die you gravy-sucking pig" was actually a Steve Martin comedy routine, and not a real death threat. Jerky things to say, yes. I've blocked accounts with email disabled on several occasions when they've sent abuse via the "email this user" interface.
Having been one of the people who did call police in the past before the WMF instituted "emergency@", I can tell you that the police will RARELY take anyone seriously if they say "there's someone who wrote on Wikipedia that he's gonna jump off a bridge". They want to hear it from someone who has an easy to verify email address, is using their real name, and can provide them with enough information to get a warrant if it's needed (e.g., IP addresses, links to the threat itself - which will normally have been suppressed, etc). And it is rare for police to take email threats seriously - Gamergate should be enough of an example there.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 16:07, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com wrote:
risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for the wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally.
carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you pay taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, and are usually very welcoming?
rupert
On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of blocking the accounts with email turned off. If you're saying you really don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and often are) blocked by volunteers.
I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emergency@wikimedia.org" is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy team) to cover the entire world.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to various others many times before.
In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)
As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to the Foundation to sort it out.
That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.
I wrote:
On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:
Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to go shoot up my school") - in other words, that guideline is intended to capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar authorities because of an imminent threat to safety. The person adding the link probably did not really read through the point of the page. Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].
I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about harassment.
Risker/Anne
On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf <neotarf@gmail.com mailto:neotarf@gmail.com> wrote:
@Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats. Did you mean to link to something else? On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.net <mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net>> wrote: Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment article mentioned that option. I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015 that the harassment article section on "threats" provided a link to the WP:Essay that specifically advises this! https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Harassment&diff=672630056&oldid=672391122 Now why can't the threats section include that info? Certain some well-connected editors have learned how to work that angle with the foundation for even minor issues... There's a huge section on what to do about threats of legal action, but zilch on death threats. Pretty absurd... Safe space, NOT!!* Thanks... CM *Of course, there's a difference between legitimate safe space from actual direct insults or threats of harm and the absurd degree of hypersensitivity now a days where there are trigger warnings on any opinion that someone might disagree with and protests against opinions that just aren't politically correct enough... but don't get me started... A lot of articles about it lately have exposed the absurdities and hypocrisy of some individuals and groups. And I can understand the fear of some male wikipedians they will be exposed to the most extreme varieties. It also gives the most oppressive guys an excuse to label minor and legitimate demands for safe space as "extremist." ("You extremist, you want to mention contacting the Foundation on the Harassment page!!!") Glad I'm not in college! Or any "progressive" political groups any more. Especially now that I am finally free of having to be a "good girl" on Wikipedia and can engage in anti-establishment mockery and sarcasm in my writings/artistic endeavors without worrying about wikistalkers slamming me all over Wikipedia ;-)
On 10/6/2015 9:32 AM, rupert THURNER wrote:
carol rightly pointed out to not mix mail threads, so let me create a dedicated thread. do you think there is a possibility to address the source of anger, and dealing with anger in a better way we do now? see for some initial reasoning below. my hypothesis is that 95% of wikiverse harassment falls in the "anger" category. many examples i saw up to now were caused by some sort of ignorance, on purpose or without knowing.
best, rupert
If you look at the mass shootings by young males over the last few years a prominent theme is their inability to connect to other people and especially to get girl friends. There even have been explicit complaints of rejection by women.
A lot of the issue is the "Male surplus" of males outnumbering women and thus have little prospect of marriage. This has been written about a lot in countries like China and India where there actually is sex selective abortion of girls and even starving or killing of them after birth. In each country there are upwards of 20 million "surplus" males. This is recognized as a social problem since these guys often are frustrated and attracted to violent gang or political activity.
However, "Male surplus" also is an issue in advanced countries, though sex selection is only a minor part of the problem. Biologically around 106 boys are born to 100 girls. However, because boy babies are more physically frail and older boys tend to get in more fatal accidents in the past the numbers evened out by maturity.
Due to better health care more of these boys are living longer and thus in every age group since around 1960 there are more boys than girls. The fact that older males tend to marry younger women, including as second "trophy" wives, means even less women are available. (Also, it is theorized by some that one long-time purpose of war has been to weed out young males so there aren't enough to challenge the older male establishment. There have been far fewer such Western wars since World War II - except Korea, Vietnam - and thus more surviving males.)
So the US could have a couple million frustrated angry "surplus males" who can't find women friends or dates and have little prospect of marriage.
As we all know, these angry guys are all over the internet and Wikipedia...
You're right. All over the internet is the surplus males that can't get girlfirends. The so-called "One child policy" just exacerbrates the situation in China. So yeah, people do use the internet for the purposes of blowing off steam and other uses.--Eat me, I'm an azuki At 2015-10-06 23:08:51, "Carol Moore dc" carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
On 10/6/2015 9:32 AM, rupert THURNER wrote:
carol rightly pointed out to not mix mail threads, so let me create a dedicated thread. do you think there is a possibility to address the source of anger, and dealing with anger in a better way we do now? see for some initial reasoning below. my hypothesis is that 95% of wikiverse harassment falls in the "anger" category. many examples i saw up to now were caused by some sort of ignorance, on purpose or without knowing.
best, rupert
If you look at the mass shootings by young males over the last few years a prominent theme is their inability to connect to other people and especially to get girl friends. There even have been explicit complaints of rejection by women.
A lot of the issue is the "Male surplus" of males outnumbering women and thus have little prospect of marriage. This has been written about a lot in countries like China and India where there actually is sex selective abortion of girls and even starving or killing of them after birth. In each country there are upwards of 20 million "surplus" males. This is recognized as a social problem since these guys often are frustrated and attracted to violent gang or political activity.
However, "Male surplus" also is an issue in advanced countries, though sex selection is only a minor part of the problem. Biologically around 106 boys are born to 100 girls. However, because boy babies are more physically frail and older boys tend to get in more fatal accidents in the past the numbers evened out by maturity.
Due to better health care more of these boys are living longer and thus in every age group since around 1960 there are more boys than girls. The fact that older males tend to marry younger women, including as second "trophy" wives, means even less women are available. (Also, it is theorized by some that one long-time purpose of war has been to weed out young males so there aren't enough to challenge the older male establishment. There have been far fewer such Western wars since World War II - except Korea, Vietnam - and thus more surviving males.)
So the US could have a couple million frustrated angry "surplus males" who can't find women friends or dates and have little prospect of marriage.
As we all know, these angry guys are all over the internet and Wikipedia...
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