Holly Graf - Gendergap - lists.wikimedia.org

Nathan

18 Jun 18 Jun

1:29 p.m.

Seems like another 1E candidate. The over-emphasis on the controversy at the end of her career can be addressed by wiping out most of the detail, or by removing the article entirely (since the notability argument is somewhat fragile, and all the references about the subject relate to her dismissal). On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Andreas Kolbe <jayen466(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holly_Graf&oldid=476031995 This article, on a female Navy officer – apparently the first woman to command a cruiser in the history of the Navy – seems to exemplify some of the failings of what I call WP:ADAM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ADAM It looks like an article written to pillory her. Andreas _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

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Nathan

8:40 p.m.

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Laura Hale <laura(a)fanhistory.com> wrote:

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On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 11:29 PM, Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Seems like another 1E candidate. The over-emphasis on the controversy at the end of her career can be addressed by wiping out most of the detail, or by removing the article entirely (since the notability argument is somewhat fragile, and all the references about the subject relate to her dismissal).

Coincidentally, others thought that too! :) It was taken to AfD and the MilHist project determined she was notable based on her being the first woman to command the ship type. :) If you want to try that Nathan, you can but your efforts and the efforts of other men like Andreas are probably better spent improving the article about her to remove this material. I eagerly anticipate y'all working together on this article as you've both identified it needs work. :) -- twitter: purplepopple blog: ozziesport.com

I've already edited it, but thanks as always for your confidence. ~Nathan

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Ryan Kaldari

9:20 p.m.

WP:BLP: "Given their potential impact on biography subjects' lives, biographies must be balanced and fair to their subjects..." regardless of what the media chooses to focus on. Clearly the article should mention the relief of command and the circumstances around it (apparently she had a tendency to swear at people), but it shouldn't constitute the major focus of her biography. Ryan Kaldari On 6/18/12 1:50 PM, Russavia wrote:

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Is that an edit of the article, or a whitewashing of the article? It turns out that she is most notable for the relief of command, and the blanket removal of material from the article is not adhering to WP:UNDUE, but seems more to be a whitewashing of the article. What you have done is removed any context of the dismissal from the article, and that is not a good thing. Russavia On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 4:40 AM, Nathan<nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Laura Hale<laura(a)fanhistory.com> wrote:

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 11:29 PM, Nathan<nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Seems like another 1E candidate. The over-emphasis on the controversy at the end of her career can be addressed by wiping out most of the detail, or by removing the article entirely (since the notability argument is somewhat fragile, and all the references about the subject relate to her dismissal).

Coincidentally, others thought that too! :) It was taken to AfD and the MilHist project determined she was notable based on her being the first woman to command the ship type. :) If you want to try that Nathan, you can but your efforts and the efforts of other men like Andreas are probably better spent improving the article about her to remove this material. I eagerly anticipate y'all working together on this article as you've both identified it needs work. :) -- twitter: purplepopple blog: ozziesport.com

I've already edited it, but thanks as always for your confidence. ~Nathan _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

_______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

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Pete Forsyth

8:46 p.m.

On Jun 18, 2012 4:38 PM, "Laura Hale" <laura(a)fanhistory.com> wrote:

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your efforts and the efforts of other men like Andreas are probably

better spent improving the article about her to remove this material. Are there efforts you would recommend for women that are different, Laura? Pete [[User:peteforsyth]]

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Nathan

12:53 a.m.

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Carol Moore DC <carolmooredc(a)verizon.net>wrote;wrote:

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If the material is WP:Undue it can be reduced. If there is evidence that this was a case of males freaking at female orders, and there's WP:RS evidence of that, include it. If she was in fact abusive, we should not be trying to cover that up. Meanwhile an NPOV question mark tag on the article would be appropriate. CM

There's no evidence of "males freaking at female orders", but then there wouldn't be, because the review board and her superiors are primarily male (as were the majority of her colleagues and subordinates). So that might be part of it, but there's no real way to establish that or include it in the article. Given the sources and context, it did seem that the dismissal was getting undue weight, so I reduced the coverage and I think the article is in OK shape. ~Nathan

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