Clearly the arguments here are a rehashing of two different versions of feminist action - and both have been successful in winning rights and opportunities for women in the Western world. Which you prefer often comes down to a philosophical difference about "essentialism" - do you believe that women are essentially different than men? As that question is unresolvable on this list, I suggest we turn to practical questions to resolve this issue.
1) Since we cannot know contributors' sex for certain (and thus predict their reactions based on any kind of essentialist philosophy), I am unconvinced that forking the list would be effective in the way that such groups have been for the feminist movement already. 2) Since the number of people in the Wikipedia community who want to work on this problem is small, we should work together until such time as multiple groups are even feasible. Too much fracturing diffuses the impact we can make. 3) Many women react in ways that are just as sexist as men. Some of the most damaging sexism I have seen on Wikipedia came from female editors. We should not exclude male voices based on the assumption that they could be sexist but allow any female voice.
My two cents.
Adrianne (User:Awadewit)
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Adrianne Wadewitz wadewitz@gmail.comwrote:
Many women react in ways that are just as sexist as men. Some of the most damaging sexism I have seen on Wikipedia came from female editors. We should not exclude male voices based on the assumption that they could be sexist but allow any female voice.
I've struggled with this list, today. I feel emotionally blackmailed - as though because I'm male I'm bad. But the truth is, I've sat and read. I'm not sure I've posted since my introduction. I've commiserated, and I've looked for solutions. There are others like me. I work with some of them. It hurts to be painted with broad strokes, and I understand that's what women have dealt with forever... but it's no fun. And Kaldari, for instance, is the most radical feminist I know... and he's male.
Exclusionary practices are out of line with Wikimedia - at least the Wikimedia I want to be a part of.
Adrianne, thank you for you post. It was powerful and drew me out of silence.
Philippe
______________________ Philippe Beaudette Head of Reader Relations Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Philippe Beaudette philippe@wikimedia.orgwrote:
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Adrianne Wadewitz wadewitz@gmail.comwrote:
Many women react in ways that are just as sexist as men. Some of the most damaging sexism I have seen on Wikipedia came from female editors. We should not exclude male voices based on the assumption that they could be sexist but allow any female voice.
I've struggled with this list, today. I feel emotionally blackmailed - as though because I'm male I'm bad. But the truth is, I've sat and read. I'm not sure I've posted since my introduction. I've commiserated, and I've looked for solutions. There are others like me. I work with some of them. It hurts to be painted with broad strokes, and I understand that's what women have dealt with forever... but it's no fun. And Kaldari, for instance, is the most radical feminist I know... and he's male.
Exclusionary practices are out of line with Wikimedia - at least the Wikimedia I want to be a part of.
Adrianne, thank you for you post. It was powerful and drew me out of silence.
Philippe
Philippe Beaudette Head of Reader Relations Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
I found this entire thread rather entertaining, blown out of proportion.
If we agree to this, I'd like to propose another sub-list for Caucasian Wikipedians and non-Caucasians and then several other sub-groups till everyone has their own list. ;)
Elizabeth
On Thursday 17 Mar 2011 11:58:48 whothis wrote:
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Philippe Beaudette
philippe@wikimedia.orgwrote:
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Adrianne Wadewitz
wadewitz@gmail.comwrote:
Many women react in ways that are just as sexist as men. Some of
the most damaging sexism I have seen on Wikipedia came from female editors. We should not exclude male voices based on the assumption that they could be sexist but allow any female voice.
I've struggled with this list, today. I feel emotionally blackmailed - as though because I'm male I'm bad. But the truth is, I've sat and read. I'm not sure I've posted since my introduction. I've commiserated, and I've looked for solutions. There are others like me. I work with some of them.
It hurts to be painted with broad strokes, and I understand that's what
women have dealt with forever... but it's no fun. And Kaldari, for instance, is the most radical feminist I know... and he's male.
Exclusionary practices are out of line with Wikimedia - at least the Wikimedia I want to be a part of.
Adrianne, thank you for you post. It was powerful and drew me out of silence.
Philippe
Philippe Beaudette Head of Reader Relations Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
I found this entire thread rather entertaining, blown out of proportion.
If we agree to this, I'd like to propose another sub-list for Caucasian Wikipedians and non-Caucasians and then several other sub-groups till everyone has their own list. ;)
I'd like a sublist for heterosexual male Jewish Israelis of half-Polish/half- Iraqi descent, who are Objectivist/Libertarians, and post-Zionists, love Perl, DocBook/XML, Mandriva Linux, and KDE, prefer to use Commonwealth English and who like cats better than dogs and who likely have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder . :-D
</joke>
( Sorry, could not resist. )
Seriously now, I don't think we should split this list based on sub-groups. Joel on Software wrote something about forking here:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2004/09/03.html
He was talking about topical forking which tended to make discussions less interesting, but I think it doubly holds for target audience forking.
Regarding the "Don't be a dick" article - I've skimmed it and found it offensive (even though or because I'm classified according to all of the above) and think that it should be changed to "Don't be a jerk" or something like that.
Regards,
Shlomi Fish
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Shlomi Fish shlomif@iglu.org.il wrote:
I'd like a sublist for heterosexual male Jewish Israelis of half-Polish/half- Iraqi descent, who are Objectivist/Libertarians, and post-Zionists, love Perl, DocBook/XML, Mandriva Linux, and KDE, prefer to use Commonwealth English and who like cats better than dogs and who likely have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder . :-D
OK, but I'm going to have a hard time coming up with an acronym to create that list to put in the subject line....
pb