Transcript and video of Katherine Maher speaking on "Privacy and Harassment on the Internet" at MozFest 2016 is now up on Wikisource. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016
Slides from Maher's Oct 9 keynote at Wikiconference North America 2016 "Building an Inclusive Movement" are posted on Commons, but I don't believe a video is available. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WikiConference_North_America_2016_-_Kat...
Hey all,
Thank you Neotarf for sharing this!
Just wanted to let you know that there is indeed a video: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016_Priv... https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016_Privacy_and_Harassment_on_the_Internet.webm
The Foundation’s Communication’s team also maintains this page of Katherine’s presentations (and past EDs), in case you are ever interested: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Executive_Director/Pres... https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Executive_Director/Presentations
-greg (User:Varnent)
On Nov 12, 2016, at 8:02 PM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Transcript and video of Katherine Maher speaking on "Privacy and Harassment on the Internet" at MozFest 2016 is now up on Wikisource. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016
Slides from Maher's Oct 9 keynote at Wikiconference North America 2016 "Building an Inclusive Movement" are posted on Commons, but I don't believe a video is available. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WikiConference_North_America_2016_-_Kat... https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WikiConference_North_America_2016_-_Katherine_Maher_keynote_presentation.pdf _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Apologies - misread first email. I am not aware of a video for the WikiConference NA session.
Any folks familiar with if that was recorded and going to be made available?
-greg
On Nov 12, 2016, at 10:56 PM, Gregory Varnum gregory.varnum@gmail.com wrote:
Hey all,
Thank you Neotarf for sharing this!
Just wanted to let you know that there is indeed a video: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016_Priv... https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016_Privacy_and_Harassment_on_the_Internet.webm
The Foundation’s Communication’s team also maintains this page of Katherine’s presentations (and past EDs), in case you are ever interested: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Executive_Director/Pres... https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Executive_Director/Presentations
-greg (User:Varnent)
On Nov 12, 2016, at 8:02 PM, Neotarf <neotarf@gmail.com mailto:neotarf@gmail.com> wrote:
Transcript and video of Katherine Maher speaking on "Privacy and Harassment on the Internet" at MozFest 2016 is now up on Wikisource. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016
Slides from Maher's Oct 9 keynote at Wikiconference North America 2016 "Building an Inclusive Movement" are posted on Commons, but I don't believe a video is available. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WikiConference_North_America_2016_-_Kat... https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WikiConference_North_America_2016_-_Katherine_Maher_keynote_presentation.pdf _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
The WikiConference North America keynote was recorded by C-SPAN and I've been told it may air in December, possibly. I had hoped to get links to all publicly available video of the conference on our website by now, but hopefully by the end of the year I'll be able to get that done. If people are interested specifically in this (or any other) video I'll try to track it down.
On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 11:00 PM, Gregory Varnum gregory.varnum@gmail.com wrote:
Apologies - misread first email. I am not aware of a video for the WikiConference NA session.
Any folks familiar with if that was recorded and going to be made available?
-greg
On Nov 12, 2016, at 10:56 PM, Gregory Varnum gregory.varnum@gmail.com wrote:
Hey all,
Thank you Neotarf for sharing this!
Just wanted to let you know that there is indeed a video: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Katherine_Maher_ at_MozFest_2016_Privacy_and_Harassment_on_the_Internet.webm
The Foundation’s Communication’s team also maintains this page of Katherine’s presentations (and past EDs), in case you are ever interested: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Executive_Director/ Presentations
-greg (User:Varnent)
On Nov 12, 2016, at 8:02 PM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Transcript and video of Katherine Maher speaking on "Privacy and Harassment on the Internet" at MozFest 2016 is now up on Wikisource. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016
Slides from Maher's Oct 9 keynote at Wikiconference North America 2016 "Building an Inclusive Movement" are posted on Commons, but I don't believe a video is available. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WikiConference_ North_America_2016_-_Katherine_Maher_keynote_presentation.pdf _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Sorry it looks like we won't have video available before the end of the year, maybe. (The age old problem of a finite amount of volunteer time, alas.) If any attendees have their own videos publicly posted somewhere, i'll be glad to put links to them on the WikiConference website.
On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 11:06 PM, Robert Fernandez wikigamaliel@gmail.com wrote:
The WikiConference North America keynote was recorded by C-SPAN and I've been told it may air in December, possibly. I had hoped to get links to all publicly available video of the conference on our website by now, but hopefully by the end of the year I'll be able to get that done. If people are interested specifically in this (or any other) video I'll try to track it down.
On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 11:00 PM, Gregory Varnum <gregory.varnum@gmail.com
wrote:
Apologies - misread first email. I am not aware of a video for the WikiConference NA session.
Any folks familiar with if that was recorded and going to be made available?
-greg
On Nov 12, 2016, at 10:56 PM, Gregory Varnum gregory.varnum@gmail.com wrote:
Hey all,
Thank you Neotarf for sharing this!
Just wanted to let you know that there is indeed a video: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Katherine_Maher_at_ MozFest_2016_Privacy_and_Harassment_on_the_Internet.webm
The Foundation’s Communication’s team also maintains this page of Katherine’s presentations (and past EDs), in case you are ever interested: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Execut ive_Director/Presentations
-greg (User:Varnent)
On Nov 12, 2016, at 8:02 PM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Transcript and video of Katherine Maher speaking on "Privacy and Harassment on the Internet" at MozFest 2016 is now up on Wikisource. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016
Slides from Maher's Oct 9 keynote at Wikiconference North America 2016 "Building an Inclusive Movement" are posted on Commons, but I don't believe a video is available. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/File:WikiConference_North_America_2016_-_Katherine_ Maher_keynote_presentation.pdf _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Thanks for those notes. I'm boldly pinging Katherine here in case she'll want to respond to these comments.
On the subject of harassment, I was one of the many people today, mainly administrators and WMF staff, trying to address incidents of compromised Wikimedia accounts that have happened in the recent past. One of the things I noticed was how cooperative the (mostly male) loose cohort of people was in our response to these incidents. It crossed my mind to wonder how we could take this same civil approach that many of us responding to this incident seem to share, and propagate that same civility through the Wikimedia community. I'm not sure that more rules (as Katherine seems to be implying; correct me if I'm wrong) is the way to make that happen. I don't think any of us addressing these security incidents acted as we did because someone told us we were required to do so; we were self-motivated to act as we did. Rather than setting a floor for behavior with rules and expectations (which are difficult to define; how does one define "civility", for example, especially in a multi-cultural, multi-lingual environment?), I'm wondering if we should instead set aspirational goals, and emphasize norms rather than rules.
Administrators and other folks in the Wikimedia law-enforcement establishment can, and do, block people on a regular basis for problematic behavior. The behavior that Katherine described in her speech is already against countless Wikimedia rules (and probably some real-life laws), but unfortunately all of these rules and all of the enforcement from administrators (who do a lot of enforcement already) is not stopping the kind of situation that Katherine described in her speech.
Instead of writing yet more expectations and rules, I'd rather see us look at:
1. Goals and norms. I think that a way to make progress in that regard is by better training and acculturation. 2. Better administrative tools, to help keep out the people that administrators and other people with enforcement authority have already decided should be excluded from Wikimedia sites. 3. Additional real-life legal enforcement in the limited circumstances where that seems likely to help a situation.
Pine
On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Transcript and video of Katherine Maher speaking on "Privacy and Harassment on the Internet" at MozFest 2016 is now up on Wikisource. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016
Slides from Maher's Oct 9 keynote at Wikiconference North America 2016 "Building an Inclusive Movement" are posted on Commons, but I don't believe a video is available. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WikiConference_ North_America_2016_-_Katherine_Maher_keynote_presentation.pdf
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
@Pine, there are indeed rules for addressing security breeches, "A block for protection may be necessary in response to:...an account appearing to have been compromised (as an emergency measure), i.e. there is some reason to believe the account is being used by someone other than the person who registered the account." This is a policy, not a guideline. (1)
To address your other points: 1. There was just a discussion of this concluded on meta. (2) If there is something else you feel should be covered, it may be worthwhile to start a new discussion on the talk page. 2. This is already being done. For reference see Kevin Gorman's comments here: (3) And I would urge anyone who is thinking of responding to this line of discussion to read Kevin's comments carefully first. "For reference, I moderate our Gender Gap mailing list, I seriously regularly receive twenty to thirty emails a week related to Wikipedia-related problems from women who do not want to participate in any of our official processes because of what happens to them when they do." 3. If there are any laws that are not being enforced, I would be interested to know what they are--failing that, what laws should be in place.
(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Protection (2) https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Engagement/Leadership_Development_... (3) https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Danielle_Citron_speaks_at_WikiConference_USA_...
On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:36 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for those notes. I'm boldly pinging Katherine here in case she'll want to respond to these comments.
On the subject of harassment, I was one of the many people today, mainly administrators and WMF staff, trying to address incidents of compromised Wikimedia accounts that have happened in the recent past. One of the things I noticed was how cooperative the (mostly male) loose cohort of people was in our response to these incidents. It crossed my mind to wonder how we could take this same civil approach that many of us responding to this incident seem to share, and propagate that same civility through the Wikimedia community. I'm not sure that more rules (as Katherine seems to be implying; correct me if I'm wrong) is the way to make that happen. I don't think any of us addressing these security incidents acted as we did because someone told us we were required to do so; we were self-motivated to act as we did. Rather than setting a floor for behavior with rules and expectations (which are difficult to define; how does one define "civility", for example, especially in a multi-cultural, multi-lingual environment?), I'm wondering if we should instead set aspirational goals, and emphasize norms rather than rules.
Administrators and other folks in the Wikimedia law-enforcement establishment can, and do, block people on a regular basis for problematic behavior. The behavior that Katherine described in her speech is already against countless Wikimedia rules (and probably some real-life laws), but unfortunately all of these rules and all of the enforcement from administrators (who do a lot of enforcement already) is not stopping the kind of situation that Katherine described in her speech.
Instead of writing yet more expectations and rules, I'd rather see us look at:
- Goals and norms. I think that a way to make progress in that regard is
by better training and acculturation. 2. Better administrative tools, to help keep out the people that administrators and other people with enforcement authority have already decided should be excluded from Wikimedia sites. 3. Additional real-life legal enforcement in the limited circumstances where that seems likely to help a situation.
Pine
On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Transcript and video of Katherine Maher speaking on "Privacy and Harassment on the Internet" at MozFest 2016 is now up on Wikisource. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016
Slides from Maher's Oct 9 keynote at Wikiconference North America 2016 "Building an Inclusive Movement" are posted on Commons, but I don't believe a video is available. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/File:WikiConference_North_America_2016_-_Katherine_ Maher_keynote_presentation.pdf
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Hi all,
Thanks everyone for engaging with this talk. But most of all, thanks to Molly for letting me tell her story.
Pine -
As you rightly point out, we have lots of rules which are often flouted. However, some of these rules could be improved and enforcement could almost certainly be applied more consistently across the movement.
But I don't necessarily think more rules are the only answer. I don't know exactly what the other answers are, but I do have a lot of trust in Maggie and Patrick to identify and co-develop solutions that meet the needs of our community.
Now having said that I don't have the full solution, allow me to speculate a bit. I don't think the following is comprehensive, but based on what I know of the findings of SuSa, and efforts on other platforms, here's what I expect would probably find its way into a proposed approach, in some combination and with varying degrees of emphasis.
- As you suggest, an aspirational set of values against which we set cultural expectations around behavior and participation, combined with firm floors (rules) rooted in those values, which are consistent across projects, and clearly articulated and understandable to all contributors. - Consistent enforcement, with the application of judgments linked back to the aspirational values, as a means of building consistent cultural norms. (This is the approach we are taking with our current WMF values discussion.) - Capacity building and training for community leaders (as Neotarf pointed out, efforts here are underway.) - Technical support of better blocking and enforcement tools for both community members and staff. - Clear pathways of escalation through the SuSa team for intractable and most severe cases, and ancillary support for victims who have been seriously victimized.
As I said in the Q&A at MozFest, my dream scenario is where our community internalizes a culture of respectful participation and discourse to such an extent that bad behavior is identified quickly at a maintenance level, with a similar rigor and uniformity to the way we spot copyvios. We should dream.
On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
@Pine, there are indeed rules for addressing security breeches, "A block for protection may be necessary in response to:...an account appearing to have been compromised (as an emergency measure), i.e. there is some reason to believe the account is being used by someone other than the person who registered the account." This is a policy, not a guideline. (1)
To address your other points:
- There was just a discussion of this concluded on meta. (2) If there is
something else you feel should be covered, it may be worthwhile to start a new discussion on the talk page. 2. This is already being done. For reference see Kevin Gorman's comments here: (3) And I would urge anyone who is thinking of responding to this line of discussion to read Kevin's comments carefully first. "For reference, I moderate our Gender Gap mailing list, I seriously regularly receive twenty to thirty emails a week related to Wikipedia-related problems from women who do not want to participate in any of our official processes because of what happens to them when they do." 3. If there are any laws that are not being enforced, I would be interested to know what they are--failing that, what laws should be in place.
(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Protection (2) https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Engagement/ Leadership_Development_Dialogue (3) https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Danielle_Citron_speaks_ at_WikiConference_USA_2015#Question_.231:_Official_Wiki_ process_and_banning_all_the_women
On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:36 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for those notes. I'm boldly pinging Katherine here in case she'll want to respond to these comments.
On the subject of harassment, I was one of the many people today, mainly administrators and WMF staff, trying to address incidents of compromised Wikimedia accounts that have happened in the recent past. One of the things I noticed was how cooperative the (mostly male) loose cohort of people was in our response to these incidents. It crossed my mind to wonder how we could take this same civil approach that many of us responding to this incident seem to share, and propagate that same civility through the Wikimedia community. I'm not sure that more rules (as Katherine seems to be implying; correct me if I'm wrong) is the way to make that happen. I don't think any of us addressing these security incidents acted as we did because someone told us we were required to do so; we were self-motivated to act as we did. Rather than setting a floor for behavior with rules and expectations (which are difficult to define; how does one define "civility", for example, especially in a multi-cultural, multi-lingual environment?), I'm wondering if we should instead set aspirational goals, and emphasize norms rather than rules.
Administrators and other folks in the Wikimedia law-enforcement establishment can, and do, block people on a regular basis for problematic behavior. The behavior that Katherine described in her speech is already against countless Wikimedia rules (and probably some real-life laws), but unfortunately all of these rules and all of the enforcement from administrators (who do a lot of enforcement already) is not stopping the kind of situation that Katherine described in her speech.
Instead of writing yet more expectations and rules, I'd rather see us look at:
- Goals and norms. I think that a way to make progress in that regard is
by better training and acculturation. 2. Better administrative tools, to help keep out the people that administrators and other people with enforcement authority have already decided should be excluded from Wikimedia sites. 3. Additional real-life legal enforcement in the limited circumstances where that seems likely to help a situation.
Pine
On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Transcript and video of Katherine Maher speaking on "Privacy and Harassment on the Internet" at MozFest 2016 is now up on Wikisource. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016
Slides from Maher's Oct 9 keynote at Wikiconference North America 2016 "Building an Inclusive Movement" are posted on Commons, but I don't believe a video is available. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/File:WikiConference_North_America_2016_-_Katherine_Maher_ keynote_presentation.pdf
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Hi Katherine,
Thanks for commenting. Here are some thoughts to consider:
* Firm floors are relatively easy when dealing with vandalism and other scenarios that don't remotely resemble constructive participation on Wikimedia sites. But lots of cases have more ambiguity; hence, for example, protracted debates at the English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee pages.
* While consistent enforcement is an impossibility (even professional police forces and professional judges have widely varying standards of enforcement, and an all-volunteer cadre of administrators is not likely to do better), I think that training may be beneficial in helping with some situations. For example, training might be helpful in (1) de-escalation techniques, (2) identifying and handling scenarios that involve harassment, and (3) dealing with newbies (it's easy to forget what it's like to be new when one has been around for a long time, and particularly when one spends a lot of time dealing with problems and is already overworked dealing with problematic behaviors and ungrateful users.)
I agree that we can make some progress, but I think there are many ambiguous scenarios and I would not want to try to box in administrators with black-and-white rules when so many scenarios are colored in shades of gray.
I also think that we need to acknowledge that administrators are humans, not robots, and that there will inevitably be varying perspectives, personalities, and cultures in the mix.
Finally, I would encourage WMF to take an approach that is supportive. Hearing "we should have clear rules and enforce them consistently" is much less helpful than "how can we help our community to improve its self-governance, protect itself from bad actors, detoxify its climate, and grow its diversity?"
Thanks,
Pine
On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Katherine Maher kmaher@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi all,
Thanks everyone for engaging with this talk. But most of all, thanks to Molly for letting me tell her story.
Pine -
As you rightly point out, we have lots of rules which are often flouted. However, some of these rules could be improved and enforcement could almost certainly be applied more consistently across the movement.
But I don't necessarily think more rules are the only answer. I don't know exactly what the other answers are, but I do have a lot of trust in Maggie and Patrick to identify and co-develop solutions that meet the needs of our community.
Now having said that I don't have the full solution, allow me to speculate a bit. I don't think the following is comprehensive, but based on what I know of the findings of SuSa, and efforts on other platforms, here's what I expect would probably find its way into a proposed approach, in some combination and with varying degrees of emphasis.
- As you suggest, an aspirational set of values against which we set
cultural expectations around behavior and participation, combined with firm floors (rules) rooted in those values, which are consistent across projects, and clearly articulated and understandable to all contributors.
- Consistent enforcement, with the application of judgments linked
back to the aspirational values, as a means of building consistent cultural norms. (This is the approach we are taking with our current WMF values discussion.)
- Capacity building and training for community leaders (as Neotarf
pointed out, efforts here are underway.)
- Technical support of better blocking and enforcement tools for both
community members and staff.
- Clear pathways of escalation through the SuSa team for intractable
and most severe cases, and ancillary support for victims who have been seriously victimized.
As I said in the Q&A at MozFest, my dream scenario is where our community internalizes a culture of respectful participation and discourse to such an extent that bad behavior is identified quickly at a maintenance level, with a similar rigor and uniformity to the way we spot copyvios. We should dream.
On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
@Pine, there are indeed rules for addressing security breeches, "A block for protection may be necessary in response to:...an account appearing to have been compromised (as an emergency measure), i.e. there is some reason to believe the account is being used by someone other than the person who registered the account." This is a policy, not a guideline. (1)
To address your other points:
- There was just a discussion of this concluded on meta. (2) If there
is something else you feel should be covered, it may be worthwhile to start a new discussion on the talk page. 2. This is already being done. For reference see Kevin Gorman's comments here: (3) And I would urge anyone who is thinking of responding to this line of discussion to read Kevin's comments carefully first. "For reference, I moderate our Gender Gap mailing list, I seriously regularly receive twenty to thirty emails a week related to Wikipedia-related problems from women who do not want to participate in any of our official processes because of what happens to them when they do." 3. If there are any laws that are not being enforced, I would be interested to know what they are--failing that, what laws should be in place.
(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Protection (2) https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Engagement/Leaders hip_Development_Dialogue (3) https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Danielle_Citron_speaks_at_ WikiConference_USA_2015#Question_.231:_Official_Wiki_process _and_banning_all_the_women
On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:36 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for those notes. I'm boldly pinging Katherine here in case she'll want to respond to these comments.
On the subject of harassment, I was one of the many people today, mainly administrators and WMF staff, trying to address incidents of compromised Wikimedia accounts that have happened in the recent past. One of the things I noticed was how cooperative the (mostly male) loose cohort of people was in our response to these incidents. It crossed my mind to wonder how we could take this same civil approach that many of us responding to this incident seem to share, and propagate that same civility through the Wikimedia community. I'm not sure that more rules (as Katherine seems to be implying; correct me if I'm wrong) is the way to make that happen. I don't think any of us addressing these security incidents acted as we did because someone told us we were required to do so; we were self-motivated to act as we did. Rather than setting a floor for behavior with rules and expectations (which are difficult to define; how does one define "civility", for example, especially in a multi-cultural, multi-lingual environment?), I'm wondering if we should instead set aspirational goals, and emphasize norms rather than rules.
Administrators and other folks in the Wikimedia law-enforcement establishment can, and do, block people on a regular basis for problematic behavior. The behavior that Katherine described in her speech is already against countless Wikimedia rules (and probably some real-life laws), but unfortunately all of these rules and all of the enforcement from administrators (who do a lot of enforcement already) is not stopping the kind of situation that Katherine described in her speech.
Instead of writing yet more expectations and rules, I'd rather see us look at:
- Goals and norms. I think that a way to make progress in that regard
is by better training and acculturation. 2. Better administrative tools, to help keep out the people that administrators and other people with enforcement authority have already decided should be excluded from Wikimedia sites. 3. Additional real-life legal enforcement in the limited circumstances where that seems likely to help a situation.
Pine
On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Transcript and video of Katherine Maher speaking on "Privacy and Harassment on the Internet" at MozFest 2016 is now up on Wikisource. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016
Slides from Maher's Oct 9 keynote at Wikiconference North America 2016 "Building an Inclusive Movement" are posted on Commons, but I don't believe a video is available. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/File:WikiConference_North_America_2016_-_Katherine_Maher_k eynote_presentation.pdf
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- Katherine Maher
Wikimedia Foundation 149 New Montgomery Street San Francisco, CA 94105
+1 (415) 839-6885 ext. 6635 +1 (415) 712 4873 kmaher@wikimedia.org
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
After listening and reading some comments at the WMF Metrics Meeting today, I have a few other thoughts. These aren't directed at anyone in particular, and I hope other people will comment in this discussion.
* With regard to adding, clarifying, or changing rules: the situation may be different in different wikis. For example, ENWP has a very large and complicated set of community policies; smaller wikis may have few or no written policies. I'm reluctant to add to the cobweb of policies on English Wikipedia, but perhaps for some wikis it would be helpful to set up new rules that go into greater detail than "be civil".
* At community meetings and conferences I attend, the attendees are almost unanimously polite and considerate. How can we take that same atmosphere onto online spaces?
* Would it help to increase the number of administrators on some wikis? If so, how do we do this in a thoughtful way? There are tradeoffs to be considered.
* How can we help good-faith and competent administrators to feel good about what they do, and help to motivate them to keep doing it?
* To borrow a comment from Sumana: how do we balance freedom of expression with hospitality? We tend to be strong proponents of freedom of expression; can we simultaneously be strong proponents of civility? ("Civility" does not necessarily mean "free from disagreement"; rather, I'm hoping that we can have disagreements in a civil manner.)
With those thoughts, I'm going to give myself a vacation from reading mailing lists for the next few days before I get trouted by Marti for being here instead of working on LearnWiki. I hope other people will share their thoughts on this topic.
Hi Neotarf,
(0) There is a policy that compromised accounts may be blocked; I was referring to the self-motivation of the people involved in trying to address, investigate, and mitigate the security problems which includes, but extends well beyond, temporary blocks of affected accounts. Please keep in mind that Wikimedia community members have no "affirmative duties" to involve themselves in most situations; the administrators and other community members who took action had no one telling them "do this or else". People were self-motivated to help. Also, I generally believe that the WMF staff who were involved took action because they wanted to do so, not merely because it was part of their jobs.
(1) I'm aware of that dialogue. I will be interested to see what emerges. There are some other training initiatives that have been developed, such as The Wikipedia Adventure and Wiki Ed's training for students and instructors; also, WMF Support and Safety is developing a few training modules about harassment and the handling of private information.
(2) I think we may be talking about different things. I was referring to technical administrative tools; I think you are referring to community processes like arbitration. I follow the news about ENWP Arbcom, but try to stay away from it most of the time. I feel that Arbcom work involves a lot of drama, and I have a lot of appreciation for the people who volunteer to serve on Arbcom and try to do a good job.
(3) As I understand the situation with regard to laws about harassment, outing, and related issues, the problem has as much to do with a lack of law-enforcement resources as it does with antiquated laws and practices. Katherine and WMF Legal may be able to comment in more depth. I would like to see more intervention in the limited circumstances where it might be helpful, and I hope that there are practical ways to make progress in that area.
I'm hoping that Katherine will also have some comments.
Pine
On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 8:01 AM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
@Pine, there are indeed rules for addressing security breeches, "A block for protection may be necessary in response to:...an account appearing to have been compromised (as an emergency measure), i.e. there is some reason to believe the account is being used by someone other than the person who registered the account." This is a policy, not a guideline. (1)
To address your other points:
- There was just a discussion of this concluded on meta. (2) If there is
something else you feel should be covered, it may be worthwhile to start a new discussion on the talk page. 2. This is already being done. For reference see Kevin Gorman's comments here: (3) And I would urge anyone who is thinking of responding to this line of discussion to read Kevin's comments carefully first. "For reference, I moderate our Gender Gap mailing list, I seriously regularly receive twenty to thirty emails a week related to Wikipedia-related problems from women who do not want to participate in any of our official processes because of what happens to them when they do." 3. If there are any laws that are not being enforced, I would be interested to know what they are--failing that, what laws should be in place.
(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Protection (2) https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Engagement/ Leadership_Development_Dialogue (3) https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Danielle_Citron_speaks_ at_WikiConference_USA_2015#Question_.231:_Official_Wiki_ process_and_banning_all_the_women
On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:36 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for those notes. I'm boldly pinging Katherine here in case she'll want to respond to these comments.
On the subject of harassment, I was one of the many people today, mainly administrators and WMF staff, trying to address incidents of compromised Wikimedia accounts that have happened in the recent past. One of the things I noticed was how cooperative the (mostly male) loose cohort of people was in our response to these incidents. It crossed my mind to wonder how we could take this same civil approach that many of us responding to this incident seem to share, and propagate that same civility through the Wikimedia community. I'm not sure that more rules (as Katherine seems to be implying; correct me if I'm wrong) is the way to make that happen. I don't think any of us addressing these security incidents acted as we did because someone told us we were required to do so; we were self-motivated to act as we did. Rather than setting a floor for behavior with rules and expectations (which are difficult to define; how does one define "civility", for example, especially in a multi-cultural, multi-lingual environment?), I'm wondering if we should instead set aspirational goals, and emphasize norms rather than rules.
Administrators and other folks in the Wikimedia law-enforcement establishment can, and do, block people on a regular basis for problematic behavior. The behavior that Katherine described in her speech is already against countless Wikimedia rules (and probably some real-life laws), but unfortunately all of these rules and all of the enforcement from administrators (who do a lot of enforcement already) is not stopping the kind of situation that Katherine described in her speech.
Instead of writing yet more expectations and rules, I'd rather see us look at:
- Goals and norms. I think that a way to make progress in that regard is
by better training and acculturation. 2. Better administrative tools, to help keep out the people that administrators and other people with enforcement authority have already decided should be excluded from Wikimedia sites. 3. Additional real-life legal enforcement in the limited circumstances where that seems likely to help a situation.
Pine
On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Transcript and video of Katherine Maher speaking on "Privacy and Harassment on the Internet" at MozFest 2016 is now up on Wikisource. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Katherine_Maher_at_MozFest_2016
Slides from Maher's Oct 9 keynote at Wikiconference North America 2016 "Building an Inclusive Movement" are posted on Commons, but I don't believe a video is available. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/File:WikiConference_North_America_2016_-_Katherine_Maher_ keynote_presentation.pdf
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap