Hello everybody,
let me introduce myself to you. I'm a female editor and long time volunteer in the german wikipedia. To answer your question: I voted against the image filter and I didn't have a problem with the vulva picture on the front page (Ok, I saw better pictures on the front page over the years, but I was not shocked and did not think this was such a big thing). As far as I can overlook the recent discussions on the german wikipedia, the german blogosphere, facebook and a lot of personal talks I had to other female editors in the last weeks most of them thinks exactly the same. Why that? I don't know. Maybe because filters aren't very popular in germany at all, maybe it's because we have state schools with a curriculum in sexual education and you can see those pictures in your school books.
Maybe that wasn't the answer you expected but I had the feeling I had to answer to this.
Kind regards Anneke (Kellerkind)
P.S. And, no, I'm not to shy to post on foundation-l but I'm not interested in subscribing _to_much_ mailinglists, so I'm happy to read the web-archives (And I will do exactly the same with this list after this post).
Twice recently I have been reverted for removing vulgar jokes from article talk pages on the English Wikipedia - most recently for removing a joke who's punchline was "A woman's anus after she was sodomized!". Although I appreciate the use of humor on Wikipedia, and support the inclusion of potentially offensive material within appropriate contexts, I think these type of jokes are not appropriate on talk pages and create a sexualized environment that is often unwelcoming for women (as well as people from other cultures/religions/backgrounds). I think this issue is pertinent to the gender gap (unlike my other recent posts), and would like to hear other people's opinions. I've also started a discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Civility#Vulgar_jokes for broader input.
Ryan Kaldari
On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkaldari@wikimedia.orgwrote:
Twice recently I have been reverted for removing vulgar jokes from article talk pages on the English Wikipedia - most recently for removing a joke who's punchline was "A woman's anus after she was sodomized!". Although I appreciate the use of humor on Wikipedia, and support the inclusion of potentially offensive material within appropriate contexts, I think these type of jokes are not appropriate on talk pages and create a sexualized environment that is often unwelcoming for women (as well as people from other cultures/religions/backgrounds). I think this issue is pertinent to the gender gap (unlike my other recent posts), and would like to hear other people's opinions. I've also started a discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Civility#Vulgar_jokes for broader input.
Ryan Kaldari
Thank you Ryan for removing the post from the pregnancy page, and starting the discussion about not making vulgar jokes on site.
I left you my newly developed "Community health barnstar" for the way that you make the community a more welcoming place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Kaldari#A_Community_health_barnstar_f...
Sydney Poore
Sydney User
Twice recently I have been reverted for removing vulgar jokes from article talk pages on the English Wikipedia - most recently for removing a joke who's punchline was "A woman's anus after she was sodomized!". Although I appreciate the use of humor on Wikipedia, and support the inclusion of potentially offensive material within appropriate contexts, I think these type of jokes are not appropriate on talk pages and create a sexualized environment that is often unwelcoming for women (as well as people from other cultures/religions/backgrounds). I think this issue is pertinent to the gender gap (unlike my other recent posts), and would like to hear other people's opinions. I've also started a discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Civility#Vulgar_jokes for broader input.
Ryan Kaldari
Such material may not only be removed but may be deleted under WP:RD2 as grossly offensive and degrading.
I have not done so pending resolution of the discussion.
Fred
It seems from my experience that WP:RD2 is usually interpreted fairly narrowly, at least in the cases I've tried to use it. Specifically it requires the material to be "grossly" offensive and excludes "'ordinary' incivility". In the world of Wikipedia, grossly offensive is a pretty high bar it seems. Right now, I have a hard time even convincing people that this sort of stuff is incivil, much less worthy of revision deletion.
My favorite example is the Talk Page for Rubyfruit Jungle. It took 4 years, 10 editors, and a couple of edit wars to remove a joke posted by an anonymous IP about vaginas smelling like fish.
Ryan Kaldari
On 9/30/11 3:19 PM, Fred Bauder wrote:
Twice recently I have been reverted for removing vulgar jokes from article talk pages on the English Wikipedia - most recently for removing a joke who's punchline was "A woman's anus after she was sodomized!". Although I appreciate the use of humor on Wikipedia, and support the inclusion of potentially offensive material within appropriate contexts, I think these type of jokes are not appropriate on talk pages and create a sexualized environment that is often unwelcoming for women (as well as people from other cultures/religions/backgrounds). I think this issue is pertinent to the gender gap (unlike my other recent posts), and would like to hear other people's opinions. I've also started a discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Civility#Vulgar_jokes for broader input.
Ryan Kaldari
Such material may not only be removed but may be deleted under WP:RD2 as grossly offensive and degrading.
I have not done so pending resolution of the discussion.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
It seems from my experience that WP:RD2 is usually interpreted fairly narrowly, at least in the cases I've tried to use it. Specifically it requires the material to be "grossly" offensive and excludes "'ordinary' incivility". In the world of Wikipedia, grossly offensive is a pretty high bar it seems. Right now, I have a hard time even convincing people that this sort of stuff is incivil, much less worthy of revision deletion.
My favorite example is the Talk Page for Rubyfruit Jungle. It took 4 years, 10 editors, and a couple of edit wars to remove a joke posted by an anonymous IP about vaginas smelling like fish.
Ryan Kaldari
It is the responsibility of administrators to apply WP:RD2 fairly and appropriately.
Fred
To beef up women's assertiveness so they protest, or to give more power to some authoritarian editors to delete and block reverters, that is the question. Why not do both?? :-) Or just get more assertive female admins.
A job I myself shrink at the thought of. I already have enough problems just trying to edit the controversial articles I so often end up editing. But then I am a glutton for punishment - or is it merely negative attention??
On 9/30/2011 3:35 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
Twice recently I have been reverted for removing vulgar jokes from article talk pages on the English Wikipedia - most recently for removing a joke who's punchline was "A woman's anus after she was sodomized!". Although I appreciate the use of humor on Wikipedia, and support the inclusion of potentially offensive material within appropriate contexts, I think these type of jokes are not appropriate on talk pages and create a sexualized environment that is often unwelcoming for women (as well as people from other cultures/religions/backgrounds). I think this issue is pertinent to the gender gap (unlike my other recent posts), and would like to hear other people's opinions. I've also started a discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Civility#Vulgar_jokes for broader input.
Ryan Kaldari
To beef up women's assertiveness so they protest, or to give more power to some authoritarian editors to delete and block reverters, that is the question. Why not do both?? :-) Or just get more assertive female admins.
A job I myself shrink at the thought of. I already have enough problems just trying to edit the controversial articles I so often end up editing. But then I am a glutton for punishment - or is it merely negative attention??
Personal questions you will have to answer for yourself. You don't seem a likely administrator, but, with some discipline, could probably do it well. Running the gauntlet at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship is probably the main barrier to wielding a mop.
We don't need authoritarian editors or administrators, male or female, but we do need people who will apply policy. Degrading material is not acceptable and, in extreme cases, which this was, fall within deletion policy. I have not deleted the object of the current controversy only because it is a negative example which was extensively discussed.
Fred
So I've been asked by a few people to run for admin on Wikipedia, all people we know here. And to be honest - and I haven't been with them - I *want* to be admin, I want to be admin on Commons also (yeah right :( ) but I know, because I am who I am, I feel like I'm going to have an extra hard time. I know the vocal minority who will speak up. I'm lucky that the guy who stalked me who is a Wikimedian is at least banned from Wikipedia...
I hate to say it...but, the idea of getting crucified just so I can clean up some pages and have authority makes my heart race. And I can handle a lot, but honestly, some of these people make me so uncomfortable, nervous and anxious, that I have no desire to go through the administrator nominator process because I fear I can't "make it" with the large group of technologically capable people and those who have perfected their Wiki-persona by being assholes who like to "put baby in a corner."
I lied to the two people who asked me to run, two people I consider very close friends and colleagues - I told them I had no clue what I'd even use my administrative "buttons" for. I guess I still don't, but, I know I could make a difference. But honestly, I don't want to go through torture to have a symbol on my user page when I know so many people who seem to have a problem with me, and I'm sure Carol understands that.
Sorry to be all "boohoo" "feel sorry for me" about this, but, I often start to question the culture I'm surrounding myself with when I, a fairly confident, capable and badass person, find myself "afraid" to apply for a volunteer position within a culture that I value so much because I think people will just be assholes for the purpose of being assholes.
On a positive note, I did get OTRS access and I now look at Commons stuff and general "info-en" it's actually been pretty laid back, but, I cleared out a queue of about 100 things that had been waiting for responses for upwards of 2 months. So I feel rather productive thus far =) (And the thank you's people send you are really nice!)
-Sarah
On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 10:24 AM, carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
To beef up women's assertiveness so they protest, or to give more power to some authoritarian editors to delete and block reverters, that is the question. Why not do both?? :-) Or just get more assertive female admins.
A job I myself shrink at the thought of. I already have enough problems just trying to edit the controversial articles I so often end up editing. But then I am a glutton for punishment - or is it merely negative attention??
On 9/30/2011 3:35 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
Twice recently I have been reverted for removing vulgar jokes from article talk pages on the English Wikipedia - most recently for removing a joke who's punchline was "A woman's anus after she was sodomized!". Although I appreciate the use of humor on Wikipedia, and support the inclusion of potentially offensive material within appropriate contexts, I think these type of jokes are not appropriate on talk pages and create a sexualized environment that is often unwelcoming for women (as well as people from other cultures/religions/backgrounds). I think this issue is pertinent to the gender gap (unlike my other recent posts), and would like to hear other people's opinions. I've also started a discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Civility#Vulgar_jokes for broader input.
Ryan Kaldari
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
And to think I was strongly criticized for posting about "High Noon moments"
You'd make a fine administrator, and any process that would not do so is broken. Many of us know that and talk freely about it, but we've not been able to get far, or even get up the energy to try.
Fred
So I've been asked by a few people to run for admin on Wikipedia, all people we know here. And to be honest - and I haven't been with them - I *want* to be admin, I want to be admin on Commons also (yeah right :( ) but I know, because I am who I am, I feel like I'm going to have an extra hard time. I know the vocal minority who will speak up. I'm lucky that the guy who stalked me who is a Wikimedian is at least banned from Wikipedia...
I hate to say it...but, the idea of getting crucified just so I can clean up some pages and have authority makes my heart race. And I can handle a lot, but honestly, some of these people make me so uncomfortable, nervous and anxious, that I have no desire to go through the administrator nominator process because I fear I can't "make it" with the large group of technologically capable people and those who have perfected their Wiki-persona by being assholes who like to "put baby in a corner."
I lied to the two people who asked me to run, two people I consider very close friends and colleagues - I told them I had no clue what I'd even use my administrative "buttons" for. I guess I still don't, but, I know I could make a difference. But honestly, I don't want to go through torture to have a symbol on my user page when I know so many people who seem to have a problem with me, and I'm sure Carol understands that.
Sorry to be all "boohoo" "feel sorry for me" about this, but, I often start to question the culture I'm surrounding myself with when I, a fairly confident, capable and badass person, find myself "afraid" to apply for a volunteer position within a culture that I value so much because I think people will just be assholes for the purpose of being assholes.
On a positive note, I did get OTRS access and I now look at Commons stuff and general "info-en" it's actually been pretty laid back, but, I cleared out a queue of about 100 things that had been waiting for responses for upwards of 2 months. So I feel rather productive thus far =) (And the thank you's people send you are really nice!)
-Sarah
On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 10:24 AM, carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
To beef up women's assertiveness so they protest, or to give more power to some authoritarian editors to delete and block reverters, that is the question. Why not do both?? :-) Or just get more assertive female admins.
A job I myself shrink at the thought of. I already have enough problems just trying to edit the controversial articles I so often end up editing. But then I am a glutton for punishment - or is it merely negative attention??
On 9/30/2011 3:35 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
Twice recently I have been reverted for removing vulgar jokes from article talk pages on the English Wikipedia - most recently for
removing
a joke who's punchline was "A woman's anus after she was sodomized!". Although I appreciate the use of humor on Wikipedia, and support the inclusion of potentially offensive material within appropriate
contexts,
I think these type of jokes are not appropriate on talk pages and
create
a sexualized environment that is often unwelcoming for women (as well
as
people from other cultures/religions/backgrounds). I think this issue
is
pertinent to the gender gap (unlike my other recent posts), and would like to hear other people's opinions. I've also started a discussion
at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Civility#Vulgar_jokes for broader input.
Ryan Kaldari
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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*Historical, cultural & artistic research & advising.*
http://www.sarahstierch.com/ _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap