Now here’s something. As soon as I saw it, I thought “This belongs in the Gendergap Digest!” It is a Meta essay called “Don’t be a Dick”. I know that many people will rally for or against it, but before we do, we have to do four things:
1. Read the essay at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_a_dick. It isn’t that profane. Also read the disclaimer “This is an essay. It expresses the opinions and ideas of some wikimedians or Meta-Wiki users but may not have wide support. This is not policy on the Meta-Wiki, but it may be policy or guideline on other Wikimedia projects. Feel free to update this page as needed, or use the discussion page to propose major changes.” 2. Realize that this essay uses a vulgar, yet not excessively profane, casual line of speech that is inherently manly. Women might not like that. 3. Wikipedia is supposed to be a melding of knowledge and opinions. 4. Wikipedia and its sister projects advise against personal attacks (yet this deals with being attacked, or accused of being a dick and politely dealing with a dick). 5. Wikipedia and its sister projects advise against removing content for the benefit of any group, no matter how large or powerful (the only exception is hardcore pornography).
Considering these four things, I believe that the best course of action is to read a lot of essays. They are often the opinion of one or a few editors.Reading the opinions of many people can help broaden your mind, even if it is a little vulgar. Take it with a little salt. They didn’t say something like “If you’re a dick, I will f***ing blank your p***y c** page because you’re a sl***y b****y c*** who I hope gets raped by a b***h p***y n****r every day because you’re a dick!”
Finally, I hope that using the word “dick” in this entry has been excused. I believe that this can be seen offensive to both men and women, but mostly women. But, I believe that if “Don’t be a dick” inspires anyone to leave Wikipedia or its sister projects, that person shouldn’t have even been on Wikipedia in the first place. Wikipedia is supposed to be a melding of opinions. As this is an essay and not an article, it is supposed to be a place for exclusively opinion.
Hello,
I agree with this. To read such vulgar words is for me very repulsive too and I am not prudish. In a serious scientific project like Wikipedia such terminology has no space! How could we proceed to best to change this site?
Best
Juliana
2011/3/13, The Richardsons donsav2@optonline.net:
Now here’s something. As soon as I saw it, I thought “This belongs in the Gendergap Digest!” It is a Meta essay called “Don’t be a Dick”. I know that many people will rally for or against it, but before we do, we have to do four things:
- Read the essay at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_a_dick. It
isn’t that profane. Also read the disclaimer “This is an essay. It expresses the opinions and ideas of some wikimedians or Meta-Wiki users but may not have wide support. This is not policy on the Meta-Wiki, but it may be policy or guideline on other Wikimedia projects. Feel free to update this page as needed, or use the discussion page to propose major changes.” 2. Realize that this essay uses a vulgar, yet not excessively profane, casual line of speech that is inherently manly. Women might not like that. 3. Wikipedia is supposed to be a melding of knowledge and opinions. 4. Wikipedia and its sister projects advise against personal attacks (yet this deals with being attacked, or accused of being a dick and politely dealing with a dick). 5. Wikipedia and its sister projects advise against removing content for the benefit of any group, no matter how large or powerful (the only exception is hardcore pornography).
Considering these four things, I believe that the best course of action is to read a lot of essays. They are often the opinion of one or a few editors.Reading the opinions of many people can help broaden your mind, even if it is a little vulgar. Take it with a little salt. They didn’t say something like “If you’re a dick, I will f***ing blank your p***y c** page because you’re a sl***y b****y c*** who I hope gets raped by a b***h p***y n****r every day because you’re a dick!”
Finally, I hope that using the word “dick” in this entry has been excused. I believe that this can be seen offensive to both men and women, but mostly women. But, I believe that if “Don’t be a dick” inspires anyone to leave Wikipedia or its sister projects, that person shouldn’t have even been on Wikipedia in the first place. Wikipedia is supposed to be a melding of opinions. As this is an essay and not an article, it is supposed to be a place for exclusively opinion.
That essay is as close to policy as any essay can get. Basically, it means that if you are constantly upsetting other people by engaging in gratuitous aggressiveness you're bad news even if you are always "right".
It could be titled, "Don't be a cunt", or Don't be an asshole" without changing its essential meaning.
Feel free to suggest a new title and revise the article accordingly. We've used that expression for a long time, but I don't think there is any good reason to not change it. However, the title needs to be both descriptive and memorable; as I say, it's pretty much policy and users have been banned on that basis. This sort of character is familiar in life:
Behold the Pale Horse. And the man who sat upon him was Death. And Hell followed after...
Fred
Now hereâs something. As soon as I saw it, I thought âThis belongs in the Gendergap Digest!â It is a Meta essay called âDonât be a Dickâ. I know that many people will rally for or against it, but before we do, we have to do four things:
- Read the essay at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_a_dick. It
isnât that profane. Also read the disclaimer âThis is an essay. It expresses the opinions and ideas of some wikimedians or Meta-Wiki users but may not have wide support. This is not policy on the Meta-Wiki, but it may be policy or guideline on other Wikimedia projects. Feel free to update this page as needed, or use the discussion page to propose major changes.â 2. Realize that this essay uses a vulgar, yet not excessively profane, casual line of speech that is inherently manly. Women might not like that. 3. Wikipedia is supposed to be a melding of knowledge and opinions. 4. Wikipedia and its sister projects advise against personal attacks (yet this deals with being attacked, or accused of being a dick and politely dealing with a dick). 5. Wikipedia and its sister projects advise against removing content for the benefit of any group, no matter how large or powerful (the only exception is hardcore pornography).
Considering these four things, I believe that the best course of action is to read a lot of essays. They are often the opinion of one or a few editors.Reading the opinions of many people can help broaden your mind, even if it is a little vulgar. Take it with a little salt. They didnât say something like âIf youâre a dick, I will f***ing blank your p***y c** page because youâre a sl***y b****y c*** who I hope gets raped by a b***h p***y n****r every day because youâre a dick!â
Finally, I hope that using the word âdickâ in this entry has been excused. I believe that this can be seen offensive to both men and women, but mostly women. But, I believe that if âDonât be a dickâ inspires anyone to leave Wikipedia or its sister projects, that person shouldnât have even been on Wikipedia in the first place. Wikipedia is supposed to be a melding of opinions. As this is an essay and not an article, it is supposed to be a place for exclusively opinion._______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
"Jerk" would serve the exact sentiment.
On 3/13/11 10:21 AM, Fred Bauder wrote:
Feel free to suggest a new title and revise the article accordingly. We've used that expression for a long time, but I don't think there is any good reason to not change it. However, the title needs to be both descriptive and memorable
Are we seriously suggesting that women, as a class, are not editing Wikipedia because sometimes editors use naughty words?
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 12:43 PM, Brandon Harris bharris@wikimedia.orgwrote:
"Jerk" would serve the exact sentiment.
On 3/13/11 10:21 AM, Fred Bauder wrote:
Feel free to suggest a new title and revise the article accordingly. We've used that expression for a long time, but I don't think there is any good reason to not change it. However, the title needs to be both descriptive and memorable
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Are we seriously suggesting that women, as a class, are not editing Wikipedia because sometimes editors use naughty words?
It is quite likely that some people are put off, or feel their children should not be exposed to vulgarity or explicit images and information.
From a global perspective there is a great deal of variance in
sensitivity. Imagine a Saudi Arabian teenager. In terms of Americans and Europeans, other than certain subcultures, of course not.
Fred
No; merely providing an alternate word.
On 3/13/11 10:45 AM, Nepenthe wrote:
Are we seriously suggesting that women, as a class, are not editing Wikipedia because sometimes editors use naughty words?
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 12:43 PM, Brandon Harris <bharris@wikimedia.org mailto:bharris@wikimedia.org> wrote:
"Jerk" would serve the exact sentiment.
On 3/13/11 10:45 AM, Nepenthe wrote:
Are we seriously suggesting that women, as a class, are not editing Wikipedia because sometimes editors use naughty words?
I think what's more likely is that many people (not all of them women) get an inaccurate impression about how seriously we take ourselves as a project, from an essay titled this way.
Speaking from personal experience, I have generally avoided referring to this essay -- even though it's a really important one -- when introducing academic audiences to Wikipedia. I've also never pointed it out to my mom (who may still be lurking on this list -- hi Mom!) I don't feel it would be respectful or appropriate to use this title in such contexts.
My own feeling is that this essay, as titled, served a very positive and important role in the development of Wikipedia, but that the time for a title like that has come and gone. To refer back to the "principle of least astonishment", discussed a few weeks ago, would most readers expect the title of an essay on civil behavior to refer to a sexual organ? I don't think so.
I'd favor renaming the essay "Don't be a jerk." I know that many Wikipedians will continue to use the older name, and it's probably fine in some contexts. But I don't see the use in the "official" title being so provocative.
-Pete
I'd favor renaming the essay "Don't be a jerk." I know that many Wikipedians will continue to use the older name, and it's probably fine in some contexts. But I don't see the use in the "official" title being so provocative.
-Pete
Please go to the talk page of the article and second the motion. Give good reasons for the change.
Fred
On Sunday, March 13, 2011, Brandon Harris wrote:
"Jerk" would serve the exact sentiment.
I've actually been citing this one in presentations for some time, because I very much like the sentiment of the essay, but always felt a little uncomfortable with "dick" and would've preferred "jerk."
I've actually been citing this one in presentations for some time, because I very much like the sentiment of the essay, but always felt a little uncomfortable with "dick" and would've preferred "jerk."
Having sometimes linked to this page in block messages (until I read a little further down to where it specifically says not to do that sort of thing), I often wondered if it had been translated into Yiddish, where it had a better title waiting for it that can be used at least in the English Wikipedia:
"Don't be a schmuck"
Daniel Case
Daniel, you know what "schmuck" means in Yiddish, right?
The reason I like the level of language in this essay is that if you're a person who is genuinely being a schmuck, if you prefer, polite warnings to be civil and avoid personal attacks are not speaking your language. When I talk to my schmuck-ish lizard brain, I don't say "please Nepenthe, comment on content" and when trying to communicate with someone else's lizard brain (in the case of mentees/adoptees, I'm much more politic with editors I don't know) I don't say that either.
I can see the argument for professionalism, but I think that it ignores the reality of Wikipedia: we are a group of mostly young, mostly anonymous/pseudonymous internet denizens for whom the Greater Internet F*wad Theory http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GIFT, has some effect. (Call it the "Online disinhibition effecthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect" if you prefer the professional cant.) There are ways that woman friendly websites that I frequent have dealt with this effect: stricter moderation comes immediately to mind, requiring registration comes to mind. Pretending the community is something other than what it is does not come to mind. Policing the use of naughty language also does not come to mind.
I guess I'm not particularly invested in this essay, but it just seems so trivial in comparison to what might actually work rather than what might placate the easily offended who somehow stumble upon this essay. (From what I can tell from "what links here", the it's linked to fewer than 1000 times on en.wikipedia and fewer than 100 times on meta.)
Nepenthe
On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case < dancase@frontiernet.net> wrote:
I've actually been citing this one in presentations for some time,
because
I very much like the sentiment of the essay, but always felt a little uncomfortable with "dick" and would've preferred "jerk."
Having sometimes linked to this page in block messages (until I read a little further down to where it specifically says not to do that sort of thing), I often wondered if it had been translated into Yiddish, where it had a better title waiting for it that can be used at least in the English Wikipedia:
"Don't be a schmuck"
Daniel Case
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