Dear Colleagues,
1) Clarification: I am teaching students how to edit and author in Wikipedia. Topical suggestions for a methodology are welcome. 2) On motherhood: it depends on whether referring to the global situation, or U.S. This argument is extensive, and in most responses, symptomatic of the problem. Mothers, especially single mothers and children, are vulnerable populations under numerous social criteria. Mothers who don't hold a job and have nannies are relatively few; they may still suffer from lack of 'voice'. Again, concrete data are the most useful for understanding gaps and constraints mothers face.
ksrolph
From: gendergap-request@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Gendergap Digest, Vol 4, Issue 17 To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 05:40:25 +0000
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Today's Topics:
- Re: [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on, Wikimedia Commons (The Richardsons)
- Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons (Bob Sponge)
- Women's College Video Project on Commons Media of the Day (Pharos)
- Re: Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons (Sarah)
- Re: Gendergap Digest, Vol 4, Issue 16 (Karen Sue Rolph)
Message: 1 Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 21:26:53 -0400 From: The Richardsons donsav2@optonline.net Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on, Wikimedia Commons To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 4DD714DD.2000106@optonline.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Message: 7 Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 10:37:41 -0600 (MDT) From: "Fred Bauder"fredbaud@fairpoint.net Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 44058.66.243.192.69.1305736661.squirrel@webmail.fairpoint.net Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:16, Fred Bauderfredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
> My point is this: a significant number of women (current and
potential
> editors) don't want to work in a "I like the big tits" atmosphere, > whatever > was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some*do* mind.
So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty sure you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior.
The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users who feel they are being treated unfairly.
I see it as an inane remark that's symptomatic of the culture, in the sense that the poster thought it appropriate to post it.
Moving away from discussing this image now, to the broader issue, we do see a fair number of comments like that on Wikipedia, and letting them pass without comment simply means they'll never stop.
We had a situation recently where we were discussing a BLP, and part of the content was that the woman had experienced a serious sexual assault. In the course of discussing how to approach it, a couple of remarks were made that tended to downplay what had happened to her, and one person -- in a different section on the talk page -- commented on how attractive she was, and how he wanted to have her babies.
I was so disgusted by this that I felt (and to some extent still feel) that I didn't want to be involved in the project anymore, because why am I wasting my time in that kind of atmosphere? I felt that it said something about me, rather than about them.
I also had to decide whether to say something, or let it lie, and if I did say something, I had to make sure I was polite and circumspect, rather than screaming it from the rooftops, which is what I wanted to do. And it suddenly felt like nothing had changed in the last 40 years, that these remarks still appear, and that women are still made to feel bad if they challenge them. And if we do challenge them, must be extra polite about it. Not make a fuss.
So that felt kind of depressing.
Sarah
Now we're getting down to a serious discussion. The actual horns of the dilemma a Wikipedia administrator is in. In a way being limited to text fails to communicate the immediate expression of disgust that would happen in a face-to-face situation, so there is a failure to communicate feedback effectively. A polite note fails.
Fred
Although I do encourage Sarah to speak her mind, I encourage her not to "scream it from the rooftops" because this could start a flame war. I definitely would not do that if I were you. But you also, as you said, not be too polite. Don't sugar coat things." That's my opinion I have never stumbled upon that on Wikipedia (I don't contribute especially often), and I hope I never do. However if I do, I will be sure to say something. --With well wishes. RDW2210