Dear Colleagues,
1) Clarification: I am teaching students how to edit and author in
Wikipedia. Topical suggestions for a methodology are welcome.
2) On motherhood: it depends on whether referring to the global situation, or U.S. This
argument is extensive, and in most responses, symptomatic of the problem. Mothers,
especially single mothers and children, are vulnerable populations under numerous social
criteria. Mothers who don't hold a job and have nannies are relatively few; they may
still suffer from lack of 'voice'. Again, concrete data are the most useful for
understanding gaps and constraints mothers face.
ksrolph
From: gendergap-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Gendergap Digest, Vol 4, Issue 17
To: gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 05:40:25 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on, Wikimedia Commons
(The Richardsons)
2. Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons (Bob Sponge)
3. Women's College Video Project on Commons Media of the Day (Pharos)
4. Re: Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons (Sarah)
5. Re: Gendergap Digest, Vol 4, Issue 16 (Karen Sue Rolph)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 21:26:53 -0400
From: The Richardsons <donsav2(a)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on,
Wikimedia Commons
To: gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Message-ID: <4DD714DD.2000106(a)optonline.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 10:37:41 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Fred Bauder"<fredbaud(a)fairpoint.net>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on
Wikimedia Commons
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects"
<gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<44058.66.243.192.69.1305736661.squirrel(a)webmail.fairpoint.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:16, Fred
Bauder<fredbaud(a)fairpoint.net>
> wrote:
>
> >>
>> >> > My point is this: a significant number of women (current and
> >> potential
>> >> > editors) don't want to work in a "I like the big
tits" atmosphere,
>> >> > whatever
>> >> > was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some*do*
mind.
> >>
>
>
> >> So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty
> >> sure
> >> you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down
> >> heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior.
> >>
> >> The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may
> >> sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users
> >> who
> >> feel they are being treated unfairly.
>
>
> I see it as an inane remark that's symptomatic of the culture, in the
> sense
> that the poster thought it appropriate to post it.
>
> Moving away from discussing this image now, to the broader issue, we do
> see
> a fair number of comments like that on Wikipedia, and letting them pass
> without comment simply means they'll never stop.
>
> We had a situation recently where we were discussing a BLP, and part of
> the
> content was that the woman had experienced a serious sexual assault. In
> the
> course of discussing how to approach it, a couple of remarks were made
> that
> tended to downplay what had happened to her, and one person -- in a
> different section on the talk page -- commented on how attractive she
> was,
> and how he wanted to have her babies.
>
> I was so disgusted by this that I felt (and to some extent still feel)
> that
> I didn't want to be involved in the project anymore, because why am I
> wasting my time in that kind of atmosphere? I felt that it said something
> about me, rather than about them.
>
> I also had to decide whether to say something, or let it lie, and if I
> did
> say something, I had to make sure I was polite and circumspect, rather
> than
> screaming it from the rooftops, which is what I wanted to do. And it
> suddenly felt like nothing had changed in the last 40 years, that these
> remarks still appear, and that women are still made to feel bad if they
> challenge them. And if we do challenge them, must be extra polite about
> it.
> Not make a fuss.
>
> So that felt kind of depressing.
>
> Sarah
Now we're getting down to a serious discussion. The actual horns
of the
dilemma a Wikipedia administrator is in. In a way being limited to text
fails to communicate the immediate expression of disgust that would
happen in a face-to-face situation, so there is a failure to communicate
feedback effectively. A polite note fails.
Fred
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although I do encourage Sarah to speak her mind, I encourage her not to "scream it
from the rooftops" because this could start a flame war. I definitely would not do
that if I were you. But you also, as you said, not be too polite. Don't sugar coat
things." That's my opinion I have never stumbled upon that on Wikipedia (I
don't contribute especially often), and I hope I never do. However if I do, I will be
sure to say something.
--With well wishes.
RDW2210