Message: 7
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 10:37:41 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Fred Bauder"<fredbaud(a)fairpoint.net>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on
Wikimedia Commons
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects"
<gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<44058.66.243.192.69.1305736661.squirrel(a)webmail.fairpoint.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> > On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:16, Fred Bauder<fredbaud(a)fairpoint.net>
> > wrote:
> >
>> >>
>>> >> > My point is this: a significant number of women (current and
>> >> potential
>>> >> > editors) don't want to work in a "I like the big tits" atmosphere,
>>> >> > whatever
>>> >> > was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some*do* mind.
>> >>
> >
> >
>> >> So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty
>> >> sure
>> >> you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down
>> >> heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior.
>> >>
>> >> The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may
>> >> sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users
>> >> who
>> >> feel they are being treated unfairly.
> >
> >
> > I see it as an inane remark that's symptomatic of the culture, in the
> > sense
> > that the poster thought it appropriate to post it.
> >
> > Moving away from discussing this image now, to the broader issue, we do
> > see
> > a fair number of comments like that on Wikipedia, and letting them pass
> > without comment simply means they'll never stop.
> >
> > We had a situation recently where we were discussing a BLP, and part of
> > the
> > content was that the woman had experienced a serious sexual assault. In
> > the
> > course of discussing how to approach it, a couple of remarks were made
> > that
> > tended to downplay what had happened to her, and one person -- in a
> > different section on the talk page -- commented on how attractive she
> > was,
> > and how he wanted to have her babies.
> >
> > I was so disgusted by this that I felt (and to some extent still feel)
> > that
> > I didn't want to be involved in the project anymore, because why am I
> > wasting my time in that kind of atmosphere? I felt that it said something
> > about me, rather than about them.
> >
> > I also had to decide whether to say something, or let it lie, and if I
> > did
> > say something, I had to make sure I was polite and circumspect, rather
> > than
> > screaming it from the rooftops, which is what I wanted to do. And it
> > suddenly felt like nothing had changed in the last 40 years, that these
> > remarks still appear, and that women are still made to feel bad if they
> > challenge them. And if we do challenge them, must be extra polite about
> > it.
> > Not make a fuss.
> >
> > So that felt kind of depressing.
> >
> > Sarah
Now we're getting down to a serious discussion. The actual horns of the
dilemma a Wikipedia administrator is in. In a way being limited to text
fails to communicate the immediate expression of disgust that would
happen in a face-to-face situation, so there is a failure to communicate
feedback effectively. A polite note fails.
Fred
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although I do encourage Sarah to speak her mind, I encourage her not to "scream it from the rooftops" because this could start a flame war. I definitely would not do that if I were you. But you also, as you said, not be too polite. Don't sugar coat things." That's my opinion I have never stumbled upon that on Wikipedia (I don't contribute especially often), and I hope I never do. However if I do, I will be sure to say something.
--With well wishes.
RDW2210
