Personally I'm skeptical of our (this mailing list's) ability to reform ArbCom. The candidates who are the most tolerant of harassment and misogyny seem to always be the most popular candidates. Thus the outcome of the ArbCom cases are hardly surprising. Do we even have a slate of candidates that are worth supporting?
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
Jonathan and Fae, I see the disagreement about details as part of the systemic bias. The evidence in question was widely available; one did not have to be a functionary to see it. I looked at it with a view to searching for the holes, because of course it was possible that someone was making mischief. (And I don't mean Lightbreather; I mean simply that someone may have taken the opportunity to troll.) So I examined it extremely carefully, but I found no holes.
It's important to bear in mind that the porn images were just the last straw. The person suspected of posting them had been harassing Lightbreather onwiki for about a year. The ArbCom either looked at that evidence and didn't see harassment, or didn't look at it. We don't know which.
The LB and GGTF cases are mirrors of the O. J. Simpson verdict, in that two groups of Wikipedians appear to have examined the same evidence, but ideology inclined them to radically different conclusions.
What can we do to bridge that gap? I would say that one of the things we should do is question whether we need an Arbitration Committee. But if we do, we urgently need to fill the committee with people who can demonstrate insight into sexism, racism, homophobia and harassment, and who are deeply committed to ending it on Wikipedia. As things stand too many people feel excluded by the committee and fearful of becoming involved with it, either as a committee member or party to a case.
Sarah
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Jonathan, I think there's a bit of talking past each other going on. Rehashing details of one of the many dramafest Arbcom cases is not worthwhile.
From my viewpoint Sarah hit the nail on the head with "Something systemic is happening here. As a result of those cases and many other examples Wikipedia now has a terrible reputation for being sexist."
Improving reputation and recognizing that there is a systemic problem is a far more useful direction to take. Think about a bit of "reframing".
P.S. I was approached by the Atlantic due to my work in the area of revert-wars and the potential relationship to bias. I did a little digging around it, but my thoughts are too slow to satisfy journalists' deadlines. ;-)
Fae
On 22 October 2015 at 18:12, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Sarah,
I'm not a "functionary" so I haven't seen the evidence - clearly it convinces you, but it did not quite convince the functionaries.
Reading the
result and for example Yunshui's comment I would simply prefer that the record shows we were not fully convinced by the evidence, rather than
that
we were convinced, but chose not to act. I think what we have here is
more
than a detail difference. If the decision had been, as reported in the Atlantic, that Arbcom had decided this "on the grounds that it may
“out” the
editor that had posted the pictures, or link his username to his real
name."
Then I would have supported a change in policy, or Arbcom membership, so that future Arbcoms in similar situations would be willing to risk
outing
someone, or just ban them without public reason, rather than leave a harasser unpunished. But if the issue is not that, but instead that the evidence was inconclusive, then I think we have a very different
problem to
work on. As for the broader picture I don't dispute that Wikipedia has several problems around gender, and some terrible publicity, but if one
took
that article at face value the obvious next step would be to get a
change in
policy so that if Arbcom were convinced of the evidence they could and
would
have acted.
Jonathan
On 22 October 2015 at 17:37, Sarah (SV) slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
WSC, the evidence as to who posted the porn images was, I would say, conclusive. We nevertheless ended up with a situation in which a man
who had
been engaged in harassment (much of which was onwiki and had been
going on
for about a year) was let off the hook, and the harassed woman was
banned.
There was a similar situation in the GGTF case, so the Lightbreather
case
was not an unfortunate one-off. For example, the man who was blocked
for
harassment during the Lightbreather case should have been blocked for
it
during the GGTF case, but wasn't. He only ended up being blocked
during the
Lightbreather case because he admitted that he had done it. Otherwise
he
might still be editing.
Something systemic is happening here. As a result of those cases and
many
other examples Wikipedia now has a terrible reputation for being
sexist.
(See this selection of stories.) Rather than arguing about which
details
various journalists got wrong, we should focus on what they got right
and
how we can fix it.
Sarah
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 8:45 AM, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks Francesca,
It seems a shame that an Arbcom case in which one person was blocked
for
offwiki harassment and another would have been if the evidence had
been
conclusive has been reported as if they'd decided instead to spare the harasser for privacy reasons.
As Thryduulf put it "there is no doubt that had we been able to conclusively connect the perpetrator to a Wikipedia account that
action
would have been taken (almost certainly a site ban)."
You could point her to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Lightbreat...
A story warning mysogynists that Arbcom will and has acted against
those
it catches would have made it easier to attract women to wikipedia
and deter
misogynists.
WSC
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap