My thoughts exactly.
From, Emily
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 9:47 PM, Kevin Gorman kgorman@gmail.com wrote:
Hi John -
I'm tired so I could have just missed someting, but I'm not not really sure how you got your post out of Emily's post, or for that matter, out of the rest of the thread. A discussion about archaic gendered terminology (and face it, aviatrix is archaic) is not an attempt to define all genders as the same, and equally, it is not an attempt to invalidate anyone's gender identity. Invalidating someone's gender identity is a very serious problem; please don't suggest that someone has done so without very clearly explaining what you mean. (And by serious problem, I mean that if I see a situation occur on this list where I honestly feel that someone is attempting to invalidate someone else's gender identity, things are going to go BOOM.)
Thanks, Kevin Gorman
On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 8:05 PM, john allyn jaddtwo@yahoo.com wrote:
Somehow you appear to think that equality and sameness are synonymous. It is not possible to close the gender gap by defining male and female as the same. This kind of thinking will drive the wedge deeper because each will be invalidated for who they are.
*From:* "gendergap-request@lists.wikimedia.org" < gendergap-request@lists.wikimedia.org> *To:* gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org *Sent:* Tuesday, September 17, 2013 6:00 AM *Subject:* Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 10
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Today's Topics:
- Re: Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9 (john allyn)
- Re: Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9 (Emily Monroe)
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 14:21:07 -0700 (PDT) From: john allyn jaddtwo@yahoo.com To: "gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org" gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9 Message-ID: 1379366467.96269.YahooMailNeo@web120001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Somehow you appear to think that equality and sameness are synonymous. It is not possible to close the gender gap by defining male and female as the same. This kind of thinking will drive the wedge deeper because each will be invalidated for who they are.
From: "gendergap-request@lists.wikimedia.org" < gendergap-request@lists.wikimedia.org> To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 6:00 AM Subject: Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9
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Today's Topics:
- Re: Archaic gendered terminology (Lane Rasberry)
Message: 1 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 15:43:47 -0400 From: Lane Rasberry lane@bluerasberry.com To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects." gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Archaic gendered terminology Message-ID: CAJb6Kh5SLCkCo9BFB4LHJCf+NJkAcMno6XNk+Mk0EhKUAez8qQ@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello,
I expect that many people will continue to use the term "actress" for females in the profession. I notice that the Amy Johnson discussion raises that.
A couple of years ago I got to review an elementary English textbook being distributed in very large numbers in North India. It was an original work seemingly derived from public domain content and had a section on gendered nouns, including "negro" and "negress". I looked at the time for a style guide on best practices for gendered term and I could not find anything clear when I looked then, but obviously there is bad information to be found online among the public domain texts and it really grated on me that new print works were being distributed to teach children such things.
We might not be so far from the day when someone could publish a Wikipedia Manual of Style and expect it to be an authoritative text. I am not sure what the right answer is in this case but whatever you find please consider noting on the manual of style because this question will come up again.
Thanks for sharing.
On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Gobonobo gobonobo@gmail.com wrote:
I've been going through a lot of historical biographies lately and am surprised to see how often archaic gendered terms such as poetess, sculptress, and aviatrix crop up in Wikipedia articles. I know some of these come from the older sources such as the 1911 Britannica, but in
other
cases their inclusion is the result of decisions being made by editors. There's currently a discussion on [[Talk:Amy Johnson]] over whether she should be referred to as an aviatrix, for instance.
I'm wondering how this has been dealt with previously and if there are specific policies surrounding such uses. I've found the essays [[Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language]] and [[Wikipedia:Use modern
language]]
and note that [[WP:MOS]] says "use gender-neutral language where this
can
be done with clarity and precision". It seems as if despite these fairly clear precepts, the use of these terms persists.
Are there any archaic terms where it has been broadly agreed that using them is not encyclopedic? I would be much obliged if anyone could point
me
to previous discussions about this.
~Gobonobo
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