On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 12:44, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote: Maybe the problem is that every conference tries to do better/bigger then the previous ones? Which can quickly lead to 'too big/complicated' However, most other fields have several conferences a year where people meet each other. I'm not sure we have enough events that allow real international 'mingling' to take place. In my experience most conferences we have are very local events, and there is real benefit from interacting in person with a wider community then the local one.

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 12:44, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org> wrote: year just see Maybe the problem is that every conference tries to do better/bigger then the previous ones? Which can quickly lead to 'too big/complicated' held a Wikimanias However, most other fields have several conferences a year where people meet each other. I'm not sure we have enough events that allow real international 'mingling' to take place. In my experience most conferences we have are very local events, and there is real benefit from interacting in person with a wider community then the local one. Finne _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

I agree to some extent, a biannual event is an eventuality we have to consider. But would making it biannual have any effect on the quality of the bids, the benefit of having such a diverse community implies that the two teams hosting consecutive events might not be affected by each other at all. The bids might not improve even if the event became biannual. The bidding process lasts for months, the planning stage probably even longer, awarding more time to a bidding team might not improve the quality of the bids. The biggest benefit I would assume, would be providing a team that has already won the bid, more time to prepare for the event. Again, I would take this opportunity to bring up an earlier suggestion of a Wikimania committee, an oversight committee or an advisory group could improve the bidding process and transfer some of the burden of planning to a specialized body. The experience gained from every year could be retained within the committee, this I believe might have the largest impact on the quality and the frequency of the bids. This might standardized the process and offload a lot of burden from the host team. Regards Theo On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Finne Boonen <hennar(a)gmail.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

I would just like to correct myself and all those people who I misled into using the word "biannual". Thanks to Asaf Bartov to pointing out to me that the correct form is "biennial". According to most dictionaries, biannual does exist but means semi-annual (occurring twice a year). I don't think anyone out there thinks we need *biannual* Wikimanias then, just maybe biennial :)

effort, but you could get away with a Wikimania that was no bigger than the national events that chapters hold on a regular basis anyway,

Also, about what Dalton said above, about hiring a single event planner/manager in the chapter, I think it's still far from being able to manage a Wikimania style event professionally. Unless they are experienced with International event planning, its still going to be a very large task for any single chapter.

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Casey Brown <lists(a)caseybrown.org> wrote: Allow me to reiterate, I meant its a demanding task for any group, let alone an individual planner. :-) Our Wikimanias have also been getting larger and more complicated, I think thats one of the central issues. I only suggested, maybe its time to consider outside/professional help? Theo _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Hey Steven On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 10:13 PM, Steven Walling <steven.walling(a)gmail.com [snip]

With such a diversified group comes travel issues- Visa, Airfare, restrictions, not to mention other cultural and logistic issues far to numerous to mention.

That's why a Wikimania Committee would have been the ideal solution, an oversight body that can retain this experience. Of course, we're not talking about abandoning the volunteer-based method, but perhaps bringing in outside help.

Did you mean Biennial or biannual ? Harel made that mistake earlier :-) Having Semi-permanent locations is also a good idea, but they should ideally be located along with established chapters. I know Bangalore for example might not be in a position to host an event yet.

Ya but it wouldn't be the one event on everyone's radar like Wikimania is currently, "A wiki freak show on the other side of the world" as Delphine put it eloquently. Its the largest event for Wikipedians, and its going to grow whether we like it or not, its just an eventuality of venturing into new geographies and demographics. Regards Theo Salmaan Haroon _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

2. Even if Wikimania is not relatively big when it comes to technology conferences, the problem is growing a strong local team of volunteers in a new place every year. That's very, very hard. We're not unique in having that difficulty as a movement, but I don't think it means we should abandon volunteer-based organization for the event.

On Jan 19, 2011, at 9:16 AM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote: 2011/1/19 Steven Walling <steven.walling(a)gmail.com> 2. Even if Wikimania is not relatively big when it comes to technology conferences, the problem is growing a strong local team of volunteers in a new place every year. That's very, very hard. We're not unique in having that difficulty as a movement, but I don't think it means we should abandon volunteer-based organization for the event. This is an important point. It's hard to grow such a team in a new place every year, but if you do, then after X years you will have grown X strong local team of volunteers, ready to take on new challenges and to teach their experience to other teams. This may be a worthy goal. It would be interesting to check previous Wikimanias and to see whether the team that organized them went on as a team. I believe that hosting and organizing a Wikimania should be a stepping stone toward professionalization and development for a chapter or group of emerging volunteers. One would hope that hosting Wikimania in your region would allow a chapter or group to pull from outside the editing community and to engage local individuals to volunteer who may not wish to edit wikipedia but might wish to advocate for our projects and organize events. Both skills sets are vital, and different types of people require different types of work to keep their interest in the movement. For example I have often said, if I had come to Wikipedia to edit I do not think I would be a strong volunteer or a volunteer at all, but if i came to wikipedia to organize conferences, and to advocate for our projects to local schools and universities that is a way my skills could be utilized as a volunteer and I would feel richly engaged with the Wikimedia projects. This being said, I do not know if we have been very good at outreaching and obtaining some of the vital skills to help grow our community and to fill some of the gaps which our core contributors might not be interested. This could be a reason why bids are not strong, the type of individual who is interested to organize and run a conference is not always the type of individual who is interested in editing an encyclopedia. As a movement we need to start to welcome the skills of individuals who might not meet our standard "type" of volunteer and engage them, give them projects let them feel valued. This all being said I will get back to my point. My point is that I believe Wikimania should be an opportunity for a chapter or group of volunteers to grow, however because we do not always engage with the type of volunteer who likes to organize and develop conferences we find Wikimania becomes a huge energy drain on a local community. Most locations which have hosted Wikimania (Boston, Gdansk, Alexandria, Taipei) all from my understanding had a group which was emerging maybe thinking of creating a chapter, they won a Wikimania bid and worked for a year to organize a conference, and after the conference the work stopped. The volunteers did not organize more events, they did not engage with local schools or create chapters, the energy fizzled. I know this is a generalization and I know Boston and Alexandria might be special cases. It might be useful to know from Argentina how they felt after hosting the conference, did they see a decline in volunteers, did the volunteers who were not editors before continue to volunteer? So I agree with Amir, did former years teams continue their work after obtaining these new skills, or did the community members leave and the skills and lessons learned were lost. For me I hope Wikimania is not a chapter killer but a chapter creator, however the jury is still out. But if wikimania is a chapter killer then what can we do to change that, and how can we create incentives for chapters and groups to want to host. Again this is all my thought and opinions and I am just throwing this out as the conversation is rich and thoughtful today. James * James Owen Executive Assistant & Board Liaison Wikimedia Foundation Office +1.415.839.6885 x 6604 Mobile +1.415.509.5444 Fax +1.415.882.0495 Email- jowen(a)wikimedia.org Website- www.wikimediafoundation.org * _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Excellent point James. I agree with Harel about possible reason the enthusiasm fizzles away. Its a very common thing usually witnessed in stressful fields, the organizers tend to have a high burnout rate.

So the next logical question becomes How do we attract and retain that kind of talent?

Joseph seddon made efforts last year to get a Wikimania committee off the ground but the effort didn't go anywhere, maybe we should reconsider it again. Also, one thing I wondered about, how about a designated staff personnel to handle Wikimania bidding and event planning, its the biggest thing we have in the entire year, it would make sense if there was a dedicated personnel who could help the hosts through the bidding process and then support the event with the team and the committee.

Theo Salmaan Haroon

James, even if Wikimania is a chapter builder (or improves and grows existing chapters), I think those who have been "on the ground" planning and doing (just to set up the registration site is a lot of work, and that's one of a few dozen tasks to accomplish) almost inevitably get into a lot of infighting and quarreling, volunteers want their opinion heard as that's the only reward they get from their participation. Running such a team of opinionated volunteers is super hard, and the smallest issue can cause someone to leave or lose his motivation. In a sense, it's like throwing together the volunteers into some pressure pot and letting them cook there for a year - they might get to know each other really well, but at the same time they might also be at each other's throats when the conference is done and never want to talk to each other ever again. Add to that the anti-climax effect which I'm sure local teams experience when Wikimania is over. Having delivered such a huge achievement, maybe such prosaic tasks as lecturing at schools and meeting with libraries doesn't seem as exciting anymore. Teams are bound to ask themselves "Well, now what?". Harel On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:05 PM, James Owen <jowen(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: On Jan 19, 2011, at 9:16 AM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote: I believe that hosting and organizing a Wikimania should be a stepping stone toward professionalization and development for a chapter or group of emerging volunteers. One would hope that hosting Wikimania in your region would allow a chapter or group to pull from outside the editing community and to engage local individuals to volunteer who may not wish to edit wikipedia but might wish to advocate for our projects and organize events. Both skills sets are vital, and different types of people require different types of work to keep their interest in the movement. For example I have often said, if I had come to Wikipedia to edit I do not think I would be a strong volunteer or a volunteer at all, but if i came to wikipedia to organize conferences, and to advocate for our projects to local schools and universities that is a way my skills could be utilized as a volunteer and I would feel richly engaged with the Wikimedia projects. This being said, I do not know if we have been very good at outreaching and obtaining some of the vital skills to help grow our community and to fill some of the gaps which our core contributors might not be interested. This could be a reason why bids are not strong, the type of individual who is interested to organize and run a conference is not always the type of individual who is interested in editing an encyclopedia. As a movement we need to start to welcome the skills of individuals who might not meet our standard "type" of volunteer and engage them, give them projects let them feel valued. This all being said I will get back to my point. My point is that I believe Wikimania should be an opportunity for a chapter or group of volunteers to grow, however because we do not always engage with the type of volunteer who likes to organize and develop conferences we find Wikimania becomes a huge energy drain on a local community. Most locations which have hosted Wikimania (Boston, Gdansk, Alexandria, Taipei) all from my understanding had a group which was emerging maybe thinking of creating a chapter, they won a Wikimania bid and worked for a year to organize a conference, and after the conference the work stopped. The volunteers did not organize more events, they did not engage with local schools or create chapters, the energy fizzled. I know this is a generalization and I know Boston and Alexandria might be special cases. It might be useful to know from Argentina how they felt after hosting the conference, did they see a decline in volunteers, did the volunteers who were not editors before continue to volunteer? So I agree with Amir, did former years teams continue their work after obtaining these new skills, or did the community members leave and the skills and lessons learned were lost. For me I hope Wikimania is not a chapter killer but a chapter creator, however the jury is still out. But if wikimania is a chapter killer then what can we do to change that, and how can we create incentives for chapters and groups to want to host. Again this is all my thought and opinions and I am just throwing this out as the conversation is rich and thoughtful today. James James Owen Executive Assistant & Board Liaison Wikimedia Foundation Office +1.415.839.6885 x 6604 Mobile +1.415.509.5444 Fax +1.415.882.0495 Email- jowen(a)wikimedia.org Website- www.wikimediafoundation.org _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 1:27 PM, James Owen <jowen(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: I would be very open to having help with some of the event planning. Speaking from experience organizing conferences for the government, we did have an event planner working with us to help negotiate with the venue, the caterer, etc., to scope out the venue and handled logistics for travel / scholarships. The help with negotiating costs helps offset the cost of hiring the person. My role for myself and my colleague were to organize the program (where knowing about the subject matter was important) and we had ultimate authority to make decisions. If we could hire her (or someone) to help our local team in DC, then I would be much more comfortable with going forward with a bid for Wikimania. Though, having such help doesn't alleviate the need for a strong local team of volunteers to handle key aspects of organizing. Cheers, Katie (@aude) _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

1. Having a dedicated staff member at the foundation to co-ordinate and help with Wikimania bidding and planning is something we should consider. Its the biggest event we have every year, having some one familiar with the community and the requirements for Wikimania is probably a good idea, just a single point of contact (one-stop-shop person as Harel put it) would be helpful for the hosts. Although the Wikimedia Foundation is happy to support and guide (when needed) the wikimania organizing teams I want to call out that Wikimania is a conference created by and for the Wikimedia community and is not a conference of the Wikimedia Foundation. It is my personal belief that the conference is a rich and meaningful experience for the Wikimedia community because it is created by the community for the community. This being said, the individuals who hold the most knowledge of Wikimaina is not the Wikimedia Foundation or its staff, a committee of individuals who have been involved in Wikimania in the pass would be a better point of contact for Wikimania organizing teams. 2. We definitely need a committee to oversee wikimania planning, and take over the entire process from planning to execution. The jury is not that connected to the entire process, a committee can provide a lot of support. Considering all the committees we have or have had, this one seems like a no-brainer. 3. Hiring outside staff or a manager for the event is also an option. 4. We don't want to burn-out the organizers, so getting them as much help as possible should be our priority. it would be advisable to avoid new or forming chapters and focus in on areas which holds conferences regularly. I believe Harel and Avi can provide us a lot of feedback about what they need from the community and the foundation as they go through their planning, I assume we can count on your support James for a Wikimania Committee or maybe even a designated staff personnel in future? I am happy to help as a volunteer and must of my work with the wikimania jury is as a volunteer and not as a paid employee of the Wikimedia Foundation. It is not my position to allocate resource on behalf of the organization so I can not speak to my ability to support a committee as a primary role of my position as a paid staff. Again I think this is best organized by the Wikimedia volunteer community and not as an initiative of the WMF staff. This all being said I am sure any committee that could form would be support in some ways by WMF (for example WMF might support some travel cost for the committee members to hold meetings, or travel to hold a site visit with the local team) but the committee should form as a community initiative not a staff initiative. I should also clarify my earlier statement about a possibility for a grant, this statement again is me as a volunteer not as a paid staff. It is simply an example of how a committee could make a recommendation to the Foundation. The committee would outline and suggest responsibilities and roles for the team, WMF, jury, and community as a whole. In my opinion someone from the community should work toward creating a committee, put out a call for participation and start to hold meetings and create a strong list of recommendations for what will need to happen to improve the future of Wikimania and support bidding and organizing teams. The committee could ask for resources from WMF if they wish to hold a face to face meeting to complete some of this work. It all seems within the scope of how WMF can support the work of the volunteers. Regards, James Theo Salmaan Haroon On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 12:14 AM, aude <aude.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l * James Owen Executive Assistant & Board Liaison Wikimedia Foundation Office +1.415.839.6885 x 6604 Mobile +1.415.509.5444 Fax +1.415.882.0495 Email- jowen(a)wikimedia.org Website- www.wikimediafoundation.org * _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Also, about what Dalton said above, about hiring a single event planner/manager in the chapter, I think it's still far from being able to manage a Wikimania style event professionally. Unless they are experienced with International event planning, its still going to be a very large task for any single chapter.

A lot of the back-office operation such as communicating with Foundation, corresponding on the mailing lists, operating the registration system, operating the scholarship review system, clearing PayPal transactions, answering OTRS queries, building the program, inviting keynote speakers, running the conference wiki, Facebook, Twitter and IRC an external employee will never do or be able to do. And that's a fair amount of work on its own.