Cutting the thread that's getting too long. Do I need to say IANAL? Well, IANAL.
On 1/6/06, Florence Devouard anthere@wikimedia.org wrote:
I asked Soufron to give you an explanation of why it would be best to change the name "from a legal perspective". His answer on juriwiki-l was :
"It's simply that we already lost a few major wikimania domain names. It is also likely that our german friend begun registering wikimania tm in europe. There is a lot of uncertainty around the name wikimania, when choosing a new one could help us ensure that everything will be right and fine. "
Yes, well, there may be a lot of uncertainty at this point, but a Google search returns us more than anyone else. The press around Wikimania gives us a headstart and some anteriority.
This is quite a short explanation, so I asked him if he could detail further. But the point is, I am not sure it is a good idea he explains further... I will try to explain below, but I am not a lawyer, so maybe I will say stupid things. If so, please correct me, it will allow me to understand better as well :-)
Domain names
As I understood, the Wikimania2006 and Wikimania2007 .org domains were secured yesterday *in case* (by a wikipedian, on his/her own money).
Yes, they have, you can say it, a whois will return it anyway, I did it. I love the name ;-). And I'm not a wikipedian, I'm a wikimedian. :P
If we stick to this kind of idea (why not ?), that means the domain should be registered for many years to come [snip]
Yes, but then, the more we go in time and the more we use it, the less interesting it is for people to "steal" the domain name, for they know what it's used for. They can do it of course, but what's the point? Bother us? As we grow, we're going to have more of those cybersquatters (we already have a few) and at the most it will cost us a couple hundred dollars to get the name back because they know they can't win a suit if we decide to go that route.
Now, yes, the big question is "does it matter or not that we own the domain name ?" I invite the discussion on this. If someone takes all the domain names in .org, .com, .whatever before us, does that matter ?
I would say no. But then that's me. I believe that we will never avoid cybersquatters, we cannot register every single domain that comes up through our head.
Tm
Registering a name is not necessarily an easy business. It does not help that it should be registered in several countries (I suppose that once we are registered in USA, Europe, Canada etc... we would be somehow covered), and I presume you would all agree the tm must be protected in more than *just* the USA ? So, that implies several registrations... to do each year (in advance). Besides, registering is not "free", nor even low cost. It costs money, it costs time for the one doing the registration and it takes time to get the mark (about a year and a half at best it seems?). Will we do that every year, to secure WikimaniaXXXX ? I do not think so. Better not counting on it.
No no, we would *never* register the trademark Wikimania+year, that makes absolutely no sense and I am not even sure it *can* be done. We might want to register the trademark Wikimania of course, but even that might not be so useful. You have to remember that if registering a trademark is expensive for us, it is also expensive for others. And while I can imagine that some people would do it just to bother us, I don't think in the long run that anyone would want to get into that kind of battle/money every year, or on every trademark we're thinking about. There are things such as priority, usage, anteriority etc. that will play in our favor. The question is do we want to get into that battle in the first place. That's a strategic decision. If we do it once, and win, we'll be cured of these conversations and any cyber squatting for the rest of our life.
Let's go one step further : what if we decide to ask the tm nevertheless and someone else oppose it ? What about the costs to fight the opposition ? What about the costs if the other asked wikimania2006 before us, and we have to oppose ?
As I said, there is no way we would ever register wikimania2006 as a trademark, it makes no sense whatsoever.
The next good question might then be : what are the benefits of owning the tm of Wikimania2006 ? Will that be worth the costs and time spend on getting it ? Does it matter that someone else own the trademarks of say Wikimania2006 ? What are the consequences ?
No benefits wahtsoever. See above.
And btw, if someone else own Wikimania, will we be granted Wikimania2008 ?
No, we won't, that's why registering the TM per year is not even an option.
As you can see, there are "costs" and "benefits" to any decision, sticking to Wikimania, changing to WikimaniaXXXX every year or changing to Wikipapouasi. The benefits may be for everyone. The costs (money, time) will be solely for the Foundation.
No, costs will be for anyone who decides they want to beat us to it. Again, while domain costs are marginal, trademark registration is expensive and long, you said it yourself.
The problem with wikipapouasi is that if we discuss it on a public mailing list, or on meta, there's bound to be someone who will beat us to the domain name. I don't mind registering two domain names, I *do* mind registering every single idea that goes through the head of wikimedians and has a chance to be an accepted name.
In the end, I would follow up on Angela's point earlier. Let us call it the "Annual Wikimedia Conference" as an official name, let us call it wikimania as the funky name, let us make the wikimania.wikimedia.org the official domain for now, and if someone decides to take the time and money to register wikimania as a trademark before we do (or because we don't want to, or because we decide not to oppose -and I believe we would be granted the opposition), well, we'll change it to conference.wikimedia.org and be done with it. Anyway, in our heads and that of the public, it'll always be Wikimania :-).
While I believe that registering trademarks is a very important thing, I don't believe we should get over our heads with this whole wikimania thing. But if we have to, let us do it strategically, and just decide it's going to be wikitagada, buy the domain name, register the trademark, and stop *talking* about it where anyone can do it before us.
Delphine
-- ~notafish
Delphine Ménard wrote:
On 1/6/06, Florence Devouard anthere@wikimedia.org wrote:
I asked Soufron to give you an explanation of why it would be best to change the name "from a legal perspective". His answer on juriwiki-l was :
"It's simply that we already lost a few major wikimania domain names. It is also likely that our german friend begun registering wikimania tm in europe. There is a lot of uncertainty around the name wikimania, when choosing a new one could help us ensure that everything will be right and fine. "
Yes, well, there may be a lot of uncertainty at this point, but a Google search returns us more than anyone else. The press around Wikimania gives us a headstart and some anteriority.
Souffron's search should be able to reveal whether this German friend really has done something. I agree that our past history of actual use should have some influence.
And I'm not a wikipedian, I'm a wikimedian. :P
I suppose that any of us who spends most of his time in any of the sister projects should also be saying that.
If we stick to this kind of idea (why not ?), that means the domain should be registered for many years to come [snip]
Yes, but then, the more we go in time and the more we use it, the less interesting it is for people to "steal" the domain name, for they know what it's used for. They can do it of course, but what's the point? Bother us? As we grow, we're going to have more of those cybersquatters (we already have a few) and at the most it will cost us a couple hundred dollars to get the name back because they know they can't win a suit if we decide to go that route.
Cybersquattig is a fact of life. Does it even matter if someone else has the domain for a small South Pacific island? How much can they do with it? It's going to take a significant amount of investment on their part to have that become anything more than a very ordinary personal website.
Tm
Registering a name is not necessarily an easy business. It does not help that it should be registered in several countries (I suppose that once we are registered in USA, Europe, Canada etc... we would be somehow covered), and I presume you would all agree the tm must be protected in more than *just* the USA ? So, that implies several registrations... to do each year (in advance).
Having Wikimania 2006 in the USA is what makes registration in that country a priority
Besides, registering is not "free", nor even low cost. It costs money, it costs time for the one doing the registration and it takes time to get the mark (about a year and a half at best it seems?). Will we do that every year, to secure WikimaniaXXXX ? I do not think so. Better not counting on it.
No no, we would *never* register the trademark Wikimania+year, that makes absolutely no sense and I am not even sure it *can* be done. We might want to register the trademark Wikimania of course, but even that might not be so useful.
Assuming that it all could be done smoothly, and there is no legal problem with having the year in the name it is still silly, What's the point of going through all that fuss about something which we know will be obsolete at the end of the summer?
You have to remember that if registering a trademark is expensive for us, it is also expensive for others. And while I can imagine that some people would do it just to bother us, I don't think in the long run that anyone would want to get into that kind of battle/money every year, or on every trademark we're thinking about. There are things such as priority, usage, anteriority etc. that will play in our favor. The question is do we want to get into that battle in the first place. That's a strategic decision. If we do it once, and win, we'll be cured of these conversations and any cyber squatting for the rest of our life.
An organization the size of Wikimedia cannot avoid all legal action indefinitely. It does have some control over the issues that it will fight. A principled stand on a vital issue will likely draw public support. The public loves people who stand up for what they believe.
Let's go one step further : what if we decide to ask the tm nevertheless and someone else oppose it ? What about the costs to fight the opposition ? What about the costs if the other asked wikimania2006 before us, and we have to oppose ?
As I said, there is no way we would ever register wikimania2006 as a trademark, it makes no sense whatsoever.
Failing to act because someone else "may" oppose it is very bad strategy because you assume that you are going to lose before you have the facts. It's certainly always possible that someone "could" oppose, but we shouldn't assume that they will. IF they do we can reconsider our position at that time.
As you can see, there are "costs" and "benefits" to any decision, sticking to Wikimania, changing to WikimaniaXXXX every year or changing to Wikipapouasi. The benefits may be for everyone. The costs (money, time) will be solely for the Foundation.
No, costs will be for anyone who decides they want to beat us to it. Again, while domain costs are marginal, trademark registration is expensive and long, you said it yourself.
Papouasie could be a great place for a conference. We should make sure that we have the trademark"Wikipapouasi" registered in that country as soon as the decision is made to have it there. :-)
Ec
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