I apologise for the somewhat emotionally charged post. Please read to the end and I promise my argument will come together...
Wikimania 2016 gave me more emotional hot air than any other previous Wikimania except the one I organised (2013). But unusually, the hot air didn't arise from disputes about Wikimedia chapter governance or conference (dis)organisation. It was about Brexit.
(For the record, I thought Wikimania Esino was amazingly well-operated.)
Before Wikimania, I had already set out my attitude towards Brexit on a Facebook note. I've reposted it on my user-space on the Wikimania 2016 wiki so I won't repeat my arguments at length:
https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Deryck_Chan/The_reluctant_Rema...
The title of my post gives it away - I'm lukewarm towards Brexit.
At Wikimania, the topic of Brexit naturally brought itself up in many mealtime conversations between me and Wikimaniacs from other EU countries. My opinion on the matter often took conversations towards unhappy disagreement, and I would feel excluded from subsequent conversation on the same table.
I've never felt so rejected at Wikimania. Most heated debate at Wikimania I was involved in took the form of "us vs. y'all", so as inflamed as a debate may have been, there would be a "my side". But not this time. My unusual perspective as a non-white British (and EU, until UK formally withdraws) citizen meant that I had a perspective that was shared by very few others at Wikimania. It was like "me vs everyone else".
I felt disenfranchised enough by the referendum debate itself as a non-white citizen of the UK. I felt sad enough that I voted Remain but Leave won. I wanted to share the little bit of hope I still had about the future, on the day Leave was declared victorious, and wasn't appreciated.
I shared my feelings with Daria Cybulska (WMUK staff, Polish origin) and she reminded me to be "sensitive" of other people in discussion... an instruction I immediately fell foul of in that discussion, as I forgot that the UK's withdrawal from the EU will mean fewer opportunities for people with similar backgrounds to Daria, as much as the EU's protectionist tendencies have been reducing the opportunities for people with similar backgrounds to me.
Okay, enough Brexit chat. I promised my argument would come together.
In her Wikimania keynote, Katherine Maher said one of the things WMF would prioritise in the next year is to make our communities a "friendly and inclusive space".
I'm a six-time Wikimaniac; and in-person meetings are known to facilitate more amicable debates than online discussions. But because of my unique background, even I fell foul of the standards of sensitivity in communication, and as a result felt unwelcome.
Now imagine someone from a far-flung corner of Wikimedia-sphere joining Wikimania for the first time. Or a prospective new editor from a far-flung corner of Earth clicking [edit] for the first time. When there's disagreement in which the newcomer has a unique perspective, will they feel included?
I don't claim to have the magic bullet. But thanks to Brexit happening during Wikimania 2016, now I understand the sheer magnitude of the problem. I feel encouraged that Katherine and the WMF are making it a leading priority for the next year to foster a "friendly and inclusive" community atmosphere.
I'm not sure which one is easier to solve: the political mess of today's Europe, or the hostile mess of online communities. But for both, I shall remain hopeful and do my part to make our communities better.
Deryck
Dear Deryck,
I'm terribly sorry that the recent events made your (and also my) experience of wikimania left a slightly bitter taste.
Even we had our differences, I think we should strive to make the conference inclusive, otherwise if one sort of correctness takes hold it's rather unhelpful to discussions.
Best regards, Alan Lai
---- Deryck Chan wrote ----
I apologise for the somewhat emotionally charged post. Please read to the end and I promise my argument will come together...
Wikimania 2016 gave me more emotional hot air than any other previous Wikimania except the one I organised (2013). But unusually, the hot air didn't arise from disputes about Wikimedia chapter governance or conference (dis)organisation. It was about Brexit.
(For the record, I thought Wikimania Esino was amazingly well-operated.)
Before Wikimania, I had already set out my attitude towards Brexit on a Facebook note. I've reposted it on my user-space on the Wikimania 2016 wiki so I won't repeat my arguments at length:
https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Deryck_Chan/The_reluctant_Rema...
The title of my post gives it away - I'm lukewarm towards Brexit.
At Wikimania, the topic of Brexit naturally brought itself up in many mealtime conversations between me and Wikimaniacs from other EU countries. My opinion on the matter often took conversations towards unhappy disagreement, and I would feel excluded from subsequent conversation on the same table.
I've never felt so rejected at Wikimania. Most heated debate at Wikimania I was involved in took the form of "us vs. y'all", so as inflamed as a debate may have been, there would be a "my side". But not this time. My unusual perspective as a non-white British (and EU, until UK formally withdraws) citizen meant that I had a perspective that was shared by very few others at Wikimania. It was like "me vs everyone else".
I felt disenfranchised enough by the referendum debate itself as a non-white citizen of the UK. I felt sad enough that I voted Remain but Leave won. I wanted to share the little bit of hope I still had about the future, on the day Leave was declared victorious, and wasn't appreciated.
I shared my feelings with Daria Cybulska (WMUK staff, Polish origin) and she reminded me to be "sensitive" of other people in discussion... an instruction I immediately fell foul of in that discussion, as I forgot that the UK's withdrawal from the EU will mean fewer opportunities for people with similar backgrounds to Daria, as much as the EU's protectionist tendencies have been reducing the opportunities for people with similar backgrounds to me.
Okay, enough Brexit chat. I promised my argument would come together.
In her Wikimania keynote, Katherine Maher said one of the things WMF would prioritise in the next year is to make our communities a "friendly and inclusive space".
I'm a six-time Wikimaniac; and in-person meetings are known to facilitate more amicable debates than online discussions. But because of my unique background, even I fell foul of the standards of sensitivity in communication, and as a result felt unwelcome.
Now imagine someone from a far-flung corner of Wikimedia-sphere joining Wikimania for the first time. Or a prospective new editor from a far-flung corner of Earth clicking [edit] for the first time. When there's disagreement in which the newcomer has a unique perspective, will they feel included?
I don't claim to have the magic bullet. But thanks to Brexit happening during Wikimania 2016, now I understand the sheer magnitude of the problem. I feel encouraged that Katherine and the WMF are making it a leading priority for the next year to foster a "friendly and inclusive" community atmosphere.
I'm not sure which one is easier to solve: the political mess of today's Europe, or the hostile mess of online communities. But for both, I shall remain hopeful and do my part to make our communities better.
Deryck
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Dear Deryck,
I'm terribly sorry that Brexit left a sour taste to your (and actually my) involvement
Sent from my Sony Xperia™ smartphone
---- Deryck Chan wrote ----
I apologise for the somewhat emotionally charged post. Please read to the end and I promise my argument will come together...
Wikimania 2016 gave me more emotional hot air than any other previous Wikimania except the one I organised (2013). But unusually, the hot air didn't arise from disputes about Wikimedia chapter governance or conference (dis)organisation. It was about Brexit.
(For the record, I thought Wikimania Esino was amazingly well-operated.)
Before Wikimania, I had already set out my attitude towards Brexit on a Facebook note. I've reposted it on my user-space on the Wikimania 2016 wiki so I won't repeat my arguments at length:
https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Deryck_Chan/The_reluctant_Rema...
The title of my post gives it away - I'm lukewarm towards Brexit.
At Wikimania, the topic of Brexit naturally brought itself up in many mealtime conversations between me and Wikimaniacs from other EU countries. My opinion on the matter often took conversations towards unhappy disagreement, and I would feel excluded from subsequent conversation on the same table.
I've never felt so rejected at Wikimania. Most heated debate at Wikimania I was involved in took the form of "us vs. y'all", so as inflamed as a debate may have been, there would be a "my side". But not this time. My unusual perspective as a non-white British (and EU, until UK formally withdraws) citizen meant that I had a perspective that was shared by very few others at Wikimania. It was like "me vs everyone else".
I felt disenfranchised enough by the referendum debate itself as a non-white citizen of the UK. I felt sad enough that I voted Remain but Leave won. I wanted to share the little bit of hope I still had about the future, on the day Leave was declared victorious, and wasn't appreciated.
I shared my feelings with Daria Cybulska (WMUK staff, Polish origin) and she reminded me to be "sensitive" of other people in discussion... an instruction I immediately fell foul of in that discussion, as I forgot that the UK's withdrawal from the EU will mean fewer opportunities for people with similar backgrounds to Daria, as much as the EU's protectionist tendencies have been reducing the opportunities for people with similar backgrounds to me.
Okay, enough Brexit chat. I promised my argument would come together.
In her Wikimania keynote, Katherine Maher said one of the things WMF would prioritise in the next year is to make our communities a "friendly and inclusive space".
I'm a six-time Wikimaniac; and in-person meetings are known to facilitate more amicable debates than online discussions. But because of my unique background, even I fell foul of the standards of sensitivity in communication, and as a result felt unwelcome.
Now imagine someone from a far-flung corner of Wikimedia-sphere joining Wikimania for the first time. Or a prospective new editor from a far-flung corner of Earth clicking [edit] for the first time. When there's disagreement in which the newcomer has a unique perspective, will they feel included?
I don't claim to have the magic bullet. But thanks to Brexit happening during Wikimania 2016, now I understand the sheer magnitude of the problem. I feel encouraged that Katherine and the WMF are making it a leading priority for the next year to foster a "friendly and inclusive" community atmosphere.
I'm not sure which one is easier to solve: the political mess of today's Europe, or the hostile mess of online communities. But for both, I shall remain hopeful and do my part to make our communities better.
Deryck
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Dear Deryck,
there's a good deal of reasons why there's an etiquette rule in Italy that states "don't talk about politics at the dinner table". :)
I'm sorry if you felt excluded by us EU citizens, especially by those (as I am) who deeply care about the future of the EU. If it can be of any good, quite all of us Italian wikimedians were in absolute shock when we found out about the outcome of the elections. Most of us actually thought "remain" would have won.
I will not deny that I was angered by the results. I felt betrayed - literally - by one of the people I respect and love the most among my European brethren, and it saddened me the most since it's not rhetoric when I say that I do consider of the utmost importance the UK contribution to the EU.
Moreover, please believe me when I say that most of my anger comes from the fact that I didn't want you to experience the economic and political troubles you're experiencing right now, and that your country decided nonetheless to bring on its own head by its own decision. I feel like I'm watching a friend doing something stupid, something we all unsuccessfully begged not to do - we all knew this would end badly, and now we all need to cope with the after-effects we wanted to avoid.
I do understand your attempts at looking the glass half-full, but probably it wasn't just "the right time". Probably, it won't be for quite some time for some of us. It will surely be a sensitive issue for me for a long, long time.
That doesn't mean that, if someone offended you because of your ideas and/or the general outcome of the elections, he/she did the right thing -- he/she didn't. You're entitled to your opinion and your ideas, as well as you're entitled not to be "charged" with the responsibility of a choice in which you had a negligible part. In other words, it's not your fault if your opinion (my opinion) didn't win the referendum.
If this happened, I'm truly sorry. I've had my share of lashing because of my ideas in my life, and I do know how awful this is. Unfortunately, that's life.
Wikipedia shouldn't be as bitter as life, though. I am a strong supporter of keeping my ideas in my pocket when I edit Wikipedia or any other Wikimedia project. I try to be as neutral as I can, and if I can't I just excuse myself from the discussion. I did it lots of times, I'll continue to do so. This is what I think it's a "friendly and inclusive" atmosphere should be, as long as the "xkcd clause"[1] should not be applied.
L.
2016-07-09 23:51 GMT+02:00 Deryck Chan deryckchan@gmail.com:
I apologise for the somewhat emotionally charged post. Please read to the end and I promise my argument will come together...
Wikimania 2016 gave me more emotional hot air than any other previous Wikimania except the one I organised (2013). But unusually, the hot air didn't arise from disputes about Wikimedia chapter governance or conference (dis)organisation. It was about Brexit.
(For the record, I thought Wikimania Esino was amazingly well-operated.)
Before Wikimania, I had already set out my attitude towards Brexit on a Facebook note. I've reposted it on my user-space on the Wikimania 2016 wiki so I won't repeat my arguments at length:
https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Deryck_Chan/The_reluctant_Rema...
The title of my post gives it away - I'm lukewarm towards Brexit.
At Wikimania, the topic of Brexit naturally brought itself up in many mealtime conversations between me and Wikimaniacs from other EU countries. My opinion on the matter often took conversations towards unhappy disagreement, and I would feel excluded from subsequent conversation on the same table.
I've never felt so rejected at Wikimania. Most heated debate at Wikimania I was involved in took the form of "us vs. y'all", so as inflamed as a debate may have been, there would be a "my side". But not this time. My unusual perspective as a non-white British (and EU, until UK formally withdraws) citizen meant that I had a perspective that was shared by very few others at Wikimania. It was like "me vs everyone else".
I felt disenfranchised enough by the referendum debate itself as a non-white citizen of the UK. I felt sad enough that I voted Remain but Leave won. I wanted to share the little bit of hope I still had about the future, on the day Leave was declared victorious, and wasn't appreciated.
I shared my feelings with Daria Cybulska (WMUK staff, Polish origin) and she reminded me to be "sensitive" of other people in discussion... an instruction I immediately fell foul of in that discussion, as I forgot that the UK's withdrawal from the EU will mean fewer opportunities for people with similar backgrounds to Daria, as much as the EU's protectionist tendencies have been reducing the opportunities for people with similar backgrounds to me.
Okay, enough Brexit chat. I promised my argument would come together.
In her Wikimania keynote, Katherine Maher said one of the things WMF would prioritise in the next year is to make our communities a "friendly and inclusive space".
I'm a six-time Wikimaniac; and in-person meetings are known to facilitate more amicable debates than online discussions. But because of my unique background, even I fell foul of the standards of sensitivity in communication, and as a result felt unwelcome.
Now imagine someone from a far-flung corner of Wikimedia-sphere joining Wikimania for the first time. Or a prospective new editor from a far-flung corner of Earth clicking [edit] for the first time. When there's disagreement in which the newcomer has a unique perspective, will they feel included?
I don't claim to have the magic bullet. But thanks to Brexit happening during Wikimania 2016, now I understand the sheer magnitude of the problem. I feel encouraged that Katherine and the WMF are making it a leading priority for the next year to foster a "friendly and inclusive" community atmosphere.
I'm not sure which one is easier to solve: the political mess of today's Europe, or the hostile mess of online communities. But for both, I shall remain hopeful and do my part to make our communities better.
Deryck
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Luca and Isarra,
Thanks for the honest sharing. It's very much appreciated.
I learnt two further things from these discussions: First, opinions are much more divergent between different political factions and geographical locations of the world than I expected. Second, people have stronger emotional attachment than I thought to the political cause they care about.
Perhaps the good work of Wikipedia administrators can give us a hint towards the solution. We try to make everybody feel represented and still be able to make decisions. This is even easier in online communities than real life because everyone's opinions are laid out on the same page.
We can go further and put in affirmative procedures to make minorities feel welcome. An active preference for diversity will be much appreciated.
Deryck On 11 Jul, 2016 12:01 am, "Luca Martinelli" martinelliluca@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Deryck,
there's a good deal of reasons why there's an etiquette rule in Italy that states "don't talk about politics at the dinner table". :)
I'm sorry if you felt excluded by us EU citizens, especially by those (as I am) who deeply care about the future of the EU. If it can be of any good, quite all of us Italian wikimedians were in absolute shock when we found out about the outcome of the elections. Most of us actually thought "remain" would have won.
I will not deny that I was angered by the results. I felt betrayed - literally - by one of the people I respect and love the most among my European brethren, and it saddened me the most since it's not rhetoric when I say that I do consider of the utmost importance the UK contribution to the EU.
Moreover, please believe me when I say that most of my anger comes from the fact that I didn't want you to experience the economic and political troubles you're experiencing right now, and that your country decided nonetheless to bring on its own head by its own decision. I feel like I'm watching a friend doing something stupid, something we all unsuccessfully begged not to do - we all knew this would end badly, and now we all need to cope with the after-effects we wanted to avoid.
I do understand your attempts at looking the glass half-full, but probably it wasn't just "the right time". Probably, it won't be for quite some time for some of us. It will surely be a sensitive issue for me for a long, long time.
That doesn't mean that, if someone offended you because of your ideas and/or the general outcome of the elections, he/she did the right thing -- he/she didn't. You're entitled to your opinion and your ideas, as well as you're entitled not to be "charged" with the responsibility of a choice in which you had a negligible part. In other words, it's not your fault if your opinion (my opinion) didn't win the referendum.
If this happened, I'm truly sorry. I've had my share of lashing because of my ideas in my life, and I do know how awful this is. Unfortunately, that's life.
Wikipedia shouldn't be as bitter as life, though. I am a strong supporter of keeping my ideas in my pocket when I edit Wikipedia or any other Wikimedia project. I try to be as neutral as I can, and if I can't I just excuse myself from the discussion. I did it lots of times, I'll continue to do so. This is what I think it's a "friendly and inclusive" atmosphere should be, as long as the "xkcd clause"[1] should not be applied.
L.
2016-07-09 23:51 GMT+02:00 Deryck Chan deryckchan@gmail.com:
I apologise for the somewhat emotionally charged post. Please read to the end and I promise my argument will come together...
Wikimania 2016 gave me more emotional hot air than any other previous Wikimania except the one I organised (2013). But unusually, the hot air didn't arise from disputes about Wikimedia chapter governance or
conference
(dis)organisation. It was about Brexit.
(For the record, I thought Wikimania Esino was amazingly well-operated.)
Before Wikimania, I had already set out my attitude towards Brexit on a Facebook note. I've reposted it on my user-space on the Wikimania 2016
wiki
so I won't repeat my arguments at length:
https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Deryck_Chan/The_reluctant_Rema...
The title of my post gives it away - I'm lukewarm towards Brexit.
At Wikimania, the topic of Brexit naturally brought itself up in many mealtime conversations between me and Wikimaniacs from other EU
countries.
My opinion on the matter often took conversations towards unhappy disagreement, and I would feel excluded from subsequent conversation on
the
same table.
I've never felt so rejected at Wikimania. Most heated debate at
Wikimania I
was involved in took the form of "us vs. y'all", so as inflamed as a
debate
may have been, there would be a "my side". But not this time. My unusual perspective as a non-white British (and EU, until UK formally withdraws) citizen meant that I had a perspective that was shared by very few
others at
Wikimania. It was like "me vs everyone else".
I felt disenfranchised enough by the referendum debate itself as a
non-white
citizen of the UK. I felt sad enough that I voted Remain but Leave won. I wanted to share the little bit of hope I still had about the future, on
the
day Leave was declared victorious, and wasn't appreciated.
I shared my feelings with Daria Cybulska (WMUK staff, Polish origin) and
she
reminded me to be "sensitive" of other people in discussion... an instruction I immediately fell foul of in that discussion, as I forgot
that
the UK's withdrawal from the EU will mean fewer opportunities for people with similar backgrounds to Daria, as much as the EU's protectionist tendencies have been reducing the opportunities for people with similar backgrounds to me.
Okay, enough Brexit chat. I promised my argument would come together.
In her Wikimania keynote, Katherine Maher said one of the things WMF
would
prioritise in the next year is to make our communities a "friendly and inclusive space".
I'm a six-time Wikimaniac; and in-person meetings are known to facilitate more amicable debates than online discussions. But because of my unique background, even I fell foul of the standards of sensitivity in communication, and as a result felt unwelcome.
Now imagine someone from a far-flung corner of Wikimedia-sphere joining Wikimania for the first time. Or a prospective new editor from a
far-flung
corner of Earth clicking [edit] for the first time. When there's disagreement in which the newcomer has a unique perspective, will they
feel
included?
I don't claim to have the magic bullet. But thanks to Brexit happening during Wikimania 2016, now I understand the sheer magnitude of the
problem.
I feel encouraged that Katherine and the WMF are making it a leading priority for the next year to foster a "friendly and inclusive" community atmosphere.
I'm not sure which one is easier to solve: the political mess of today's Europe, or the hostile mess of online communities. But for both, I shall remain hopeful and do my part to make our communities better.
Deryck
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Luca "Sannita" Martinelli http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
I had a bit of the same problem, but with people making disparaging jokes about Trump. I think it's an important thing for people to remember that even as we come together in this movement, our politics are not necessarily the same as other folks, and making hostile comments in any direction about any of it is just not helpful.
(I'm not even going to say where I stand on the matter, as I'm not entirely sure myself. I'm just really tired of the hostility and wish it would bloody stop already, especially as these are hardly isolated examples.)
-I
On 09/07/16 21:51, Deryck Chan wrote:
I apologise for the somewhat emotionally charged post. Please read to the end and I promise my argument will come together...
Wikimania 2016 gave me more emotional hot air than any other previous Wikimania except the one I organised (2013). But unusually, the hot air didn't arise from disputes about Wikimedia chapter governance or conference (dis)organisation. It was about Brexit.
(For the record, I thought Wikimania Esino was amazingly well-operated.)
Before Wikimania, I had already set out my attitude towards Brexit on a Facebook note. I've reposted it on my user-space on the Wikimania 2016 wiki so I won't repeat my arguments at length:
https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Deryck_Chan/The_reluctant_Rema...
The title of my post gives it away - I'm lukewarm towards Brexit.
At Wikimania, the topic of Brexit naturally brought itself up in many mealtime conversations between me and Wikimaniacs from other EU countries. My opinion on the matter often took conversations towards unhappy disagreement, and I would feel excluded from subsequent conversation on the same table.
I've never felt so rejected at Wikimania. Most heated debate at Wikimania I was involved in took the form of "us vs. y'all", so as inflamed as a debate may have been, there would be a "my side". But not this time. My unusual perspective as a non-white British (and EU, until UK formally withdraws) citizen meant that I had a perspective that was shared by very few others at Wikimania. It was like "me vs everyone else".
I felt disenfranchised enough by the referendum debate itself as a non-white citizen of the UK. I felt sad enough that I voted Remain but Leave won. I wanted to share the little bit of hope I still had about the future, on the day Leave was declared victorious, and wasn't appreciated.
I shared my feelings with Daria Cybulska (WMUK staff, Polish origin) and she reminded me to be "sensitive" of other people in discussion... an instruction I immediately fell foul of in that discussion, as I forgot that the UK's withdrawal from the EU will mean fewer opportunities for people with similar backgrounds to Daria, as much as the EU's protectionist tendencies have been reducing the opportunities for people with similar backgrounds to me.
Okay, enough Brexit chat. I promised my argument would come together.
In her Wikimania keynote, Katherine Maher said one of the things WMF would prioritise in the next year is to make our communities a "friendly and inclusive space".
I'm a six-time Wikimaniac; and in-person meetings are known to facilitate more amicable debates than online discussions. But because of my unique background, even I fell foul of the standards of sensitivity in communication, and as a result felt unwelcome.
Now imagine someone from a far-flung corner of Wikimedia-sphere joining Wikimania for the first time. Or a prospective new editor from a far-flung corner of Earth clicking [edit] for the first time. When there's disagreement in which the newcomer has a unique perspective, will they feel included?
I don't claim to have the magic bullet. But thanks to Brexit happening during Wikimania 2016, now I understand the sheer magnitude of the problem. I feel encouraged that Katherine and the WMF are making it a leading priority for the next year to foster a "friendly and inclusive" community atmosphere.
I'm not sure which one is easier to solve: the political mess of today's Europe, or the hostile mess of online communities. But for both, I shall remain hopeful and do my part to make our communities better.
Deryck
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org