Hi Mina,
There are two main issues here, first about the selection criteria and the second about the gender issue in which one might think they are in need to be an exclusive group yet willing to be put in inclusion.
I am glad to notice that some had been granted four times Wikimania scholarships, for me it's kind of perpetuality that you will granted another scholarship if you intended to apply. I am glad also to know that you are fed up and refrained from Wikipedia movement.
I would love to hearing more.
- handoko
On Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 05:45 Mina Theofilatou saintfevrier@gmail.com wrote:
I have been trying to find a time slot to reply to the renamed thread "selection criteria", as I gather the renaming was prompted by my original email about Wikimania and my friend's reservations in attending owing to possible gender-related issues. I was planning on addressing each inline comment by Z. and others but I only have little time and my phone available right now.
So Z., what makes you assume that I will be attending Wikimania in Singapore? What guarants you the right to judge if and when and how much I have been editing lately to deserve a scholarship?
Let it be known that I didn't even apply for a scholarship for Wikimania 2023. Moreover, I have disassociated myself from the Wikimedia movement since last year. I just happen to still be enrolled on the mailing lists and the email came just as I had had a discussion with a friend who wanted to travel to Singapore this summer and I mentioned that Wikimania will be held there and she was interested and that's how it all started (I may be terribly disappointed and disillusioned by the Foundation and the movement and the direction Wikipedia is headed, but I still believe Wikimanias are amazing events)
If there were transparency in the process of selection, there would have been a public list of scholarship recipients and so along with checking my edit count, you could have checked if I were on the list and spared me (and the rest of us reading these emails) the irony. I believe in the past there were lists, I don't think it was a good idea that they were stopped. I attended Wikimania on scholarship in 2015, 16, 18 and 19 and I've also attended CEE 2018 and WikiArabia 2019. Feel free to check my edit counts and outreach activities prior to 2019 and judge if I deserved the scholarships or not. Oh, also I ran my first Wikipedia in Education program in 2007. That's even before Wikipedia in Education was officially launched (2009 was it? When most editors - in Greece at least - were at best sceptical, at worst vehemently against letting students edit Wikipedia)
That said, I appreciate the comments by all the participants in the discussion on gender policy, and I would like to address them, but please tell me if I should use this thread or the former one (i.e. before the rename)
Apologies if I have missed something, it would be much easier if I were writing from my PC. Hopefully tomorrow.
Best, Mina
On Tue, 27 Jun 2023, 17:35 Željko Blaće, zblace@mi2.hr wrote:
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 3:54 PM effe iets anders < effeietsanders@gmail.com> wrote:
Generally a review of criteria seems like a fair idea - but I would recommend doing that after the conference (ideally after the evaluation results come back). That way, you have the benefit of knowing what people have been missing, and what skills /experience/quality we might have added to make it a better conference.
I think criteria and focuses have been discussed *(from what I see on Meta) many times and that did not help increase satisfaction with the process of selection based on that criteria as it is intransparent, compared to almost everything else of onWiki work.
Zeljko: I can't look in your head, but I also read your original response as passive aggressive and it looked like you were using the scholarship as a way to score points in a conversation with someone who you had a disagreement with. I'm glad if this was not your intention, but I thought you might want to know that is how it came across to me.
Indeed you can not, but you sure made a strong effort ;-) Anyway I am not sure who you refer to now exactly. I do not have strong disagreement with Mina and/or Gnangarra, as I do not think I met either personally, but I do see systematic issues and I point to them in arguments presented by both. Maybe I should have been more diplomatic in phrasing that, but my focus is elsewhere.
Gnangarra: What would be a helpful way/moment for people to weigh in on
evaluating the criteria?
I also think the exact scoring of committee members to applications should be available upon request if people are OK with sharing this. I think many spent hours writing the application and would love to learn how they scored and why, even if that is at risk being somewhat embarrassing for either applicant and/or people scoring.
I think this is a returning conversation each year (often triggered by a specific situation of an applicant) so finding a suitable moment and preparing some materials for review might be helpful. I know you're very busy with Wikimania right now, so don't want to suggest adding this to your burden - or even suggest that you're the best person for this.
Even more than just this. I think the whole system should be revised with new post-pandemic and pre-climate breakdown learnings in mind + reduced availability of funds for global travel. Maybe as Jan-Bart suggested, less of this global (travel) for a few and more regional (for many) on an annual basis is more justifiable economically and environmentally. Wikimania could be more like a hybrid online/offline event every 4 years and have only continental events annually.
Best, Z.
Best, Lodewijk
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 6:09 AM Fresh Look freshlook2002@gmail.com wrote:
If true, others would be very interested in learning what a '4 time attendee' knows so they can also be accorded the opportunity to contribute to this great endeavor next year and in the years to come. Much to learn. Wishing all the best, it's going to be a great experience in Singapore.
On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 21:23 Željko Blaće zblace@mi2.hr wrote:
On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:14 AM Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Zeljko
Your comment is uncalled for;
Hi Gnangarra. Firstly I did not make a comment but a question. It was also towards someone who felt too busy to do edits *(which is fair, I do also), but was regretting it publicly while doing a lot of work for a friend that is interested to participate but also be very anxious over multiple things that could be interpreted as transphobia.
scholarships are distributed according to many varied criteria every application is independently reviewed by the team.
I did not open the question of criteria, but if you feel like you wanna share more as a person leading this work I would encourage you to do it publicly and systematically on Wikimania pages.
Each application as scored is then compared across the region maximising the best candidates,
Interesting. So the list will have regional and national listings of awardees? Was it done that way before? Looking forward to see this info.
each year its been the COT that have decided what criteria to focus on.
Interesting. I would think it was a mix of established norms and program focus.
This year the criteria was collaboration through outreach, and
developing new communities because everyone contributes in different ways.
Fascinating. I look forward to see people who do great work here and also who are close runners up. I see myself primarily as Outreach person *(would love to see Outreach wiki re-gain momentum) and really wanna know of people that are even more enthusiastic and productive in this direction.
One thing has always remained consistent that is we discuss the topic not the individual, please refrain from judging the individual in future comments.
I am sorry you felt this was judging *(usually you should be in power to do so), as I mostly echoed self-stated claims and asking questions.
Not everyone has the same freedoms or experiences at home and that leads to concerns when travelling.
Since I would have not been legal in Singapore last year this time I am well aware of this, however this is based on legal regulations not hypothetical probability.
Trust & Safety people will be readily available during the event and at each activity, all volunteers will have T&S training and instructions on where to contact the T&S team
That is good to know.
Thank you for fast inputs, though I was not expecting or calling it for as you phrased it, but I do look forward now to *(delayed) the report on Wikimania wiki.
Best wishes!
On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 at 08:30, Handoko Suwono handokos27@gmail.com
wrote:
> Sorry if I am answering to the wrong thread about gender policing in > Singapore. > > - handoko > > > > On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 00:55 Željko Blaće zblace@mi2.hr wrote: > >> On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 8:27 AM Mina Theofilatou < >> saintfevrier@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi and thanks a lot for your email! >>> >> >> You are most welcome. >> >> You also raised some super interesting topics and gave me insights >> in your activities and Wikimania scholarship decisions I really appreciate. >> >> I hope you do not mind this email remaining public as I really feel >> it is an important topic at least as much as your friend does! I hope Butch >> does also. >> >> >> >>> This friend is not involved in the Wikimedia movement, she would >>> be a "novice". I talked to her about Wikimania - she can self-fund herself >>> whereas sadly I can't - and she raised some concerns. >>> >> >> OK - but at least you got the scholarship so you are certain you >> will be there? >> I see you are not really contributing much to Wikimedia yourself >> also https://guc.toolforge.org/?by=date&user=Saintfevrier >> Interesting that you have been selected for a Scholarship anyway >> again and again...is this 4th Wikimania for you? >> >> I hope few people from our QW2023 team are there as one of 3 topics >> is Diversity. For now I did not hear anyone got a scholarship. >> >> >>> The others I was able to address (respect for privacy e.g. by >>> wearing the special tag that photos are not desirable) but this one had me >>> wondering. I told her she could sign up for the mailing lists but she >>> preferred the discussion went through me. She's quite sensitive with her >>> personal data, perhaps too much so, but of course I respect her hesitation. >>> >> >> I see. What do you think makes her so sensitive? Was she >> experiencing some kind of trauma? Most adult LGBT+ people did in one way or >> another. >> >> >>> It so happens that I have done a lot of reading on the issue, for >>> totally different reasons, and I can confirm that incidents have occured in >>> settings where an individual who is male on all accounts (physical >>> features) enters a female space (restrooms, lockers) by self-identifying as >>> a woman and then proceeds to harass women using the space. >>> >> >> Interesting. Do you mind sharing the references to that literature? >> Maybe this is worth a Wikipedia article? >> >> >>> I'm not saying it's a frequent occurence, or that it will happen >>> at Wikimania (haha she actually liked the name of the annual event :) but >>> it is a valid concern that needs to be addressed, if the organisers want >>> all participants to feel safe and comfortable. >>> >> >> I agree for valid concerns to be addressed whenever possible. I >> would love to learn how this can be proven valid. >> >> >>> In the past these issues would go by "rule of thumb": you see a >>> man in the women's toilets, you report it. Now I'm confused: if you report >>> it, would you be offending the gender access policy for the restrooms? >>> >> >> I do not know. I am queer identifying and male presenting, though >> not always and in the most patriarchal normative ways. I would not go >> around reporting people from just being around, but that is my choice as I >> feel I have no traumas with gender representation, but ideological ones >> with rightwing Croatian extremist who obducted the HR Wikipedia for decade >> and were visiting Wikimanias and CEE Meetings without WMF's intervention >> for a decade. >> >> Self-identification can be tricky... >>> >> >> I am not sure what you mean. I think if people are not putting >> others in direct danger through action, usually I am OK with whatever they >> identify as long as it is legal (no Nazi symbols and similar..) >> >> >>> That said, I would be happy to participate in any discussions on >>> the topic, provided I can fit them into my hectic schedule (more hectic >>> than I care, which is one of the reasons I have not edited in quite a >>> while...) >>> >> >> Indeed, maybe you should reconsider if you travel too much and edit >> too little and pass on the chance to others? >> >> Thanks again :) >>> >> >> You are most welcome! >> >> >> >> On Sat, 24 Jun 2023, 08:59 Željko Blaće, zblace@mi2.hr wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Mina! I am not sure if we got to meet online, but I see you >>>> are Greek and involved in Outreach activities so I hope we will eventually >>>> even meet in person in the Balkans. Meanwhile I see you attended many >>>> Wikimanias and glad to see you have friendly friends who claim to be pro >>>> diversity and confortable with LGBTQ folx, so I am curious about the one >>>> you ask a question for. Is she not comfortable asking this question >>>> herself? Why do you think that is the case? >>>> >>>> Queering Wikipedia 2023 event organizing team is planning offline >>>> events and we would like to have them welcoming to all well intendended and >>>> tolerant folx. I am curious to know which exact incidents of harassment by >>>> 'males who identify as women' do you refer to? Also as you think it is a >>>> valid concern, I would love to know why you think this could happen in >>>> Wikimania? Because people are mostly Wikipedians and Wikimedians? (hope >>>> your friend did not misunderstand the wikiMANIA part of the brand) >>>> >>>> Unrelated to our context, do you and your friend think harassment >>>> happens because someone is not-cis? >>>> I would think it is mostly because those people are harassers and >>>> they are in bigger numbers as cis. >>>> >>>> Thank you for your answers in advance! >>>> >>>> >>>> Best Z. Blace >>>> >>>> p.s. As a neo-nazi and right-wing militants attack victim (also >>>> known to be on their lists) I would love to raise concerns over tolerance >>>> for neo-nazi, right-wing and pro-gun militants in Wikimedia, but there was >>>> historically no or very little support for concrete work, so I would love >>>> for us to brainstorm at one point what makes sense to do, where and when. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:23 PM Mina Theofilatou < >>>> saintfevrier@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask, but on behalf >>>>> of a friend who is considering attending I'd like to know about the policy >>>>> on gendered restrooms in the conference venue. She is very comfortable with >>>>> the LGBTQ community and celebrates diversity, but is concerned about the >>>>> possibility of AMAB individuals who self-identify as women using the >>>>> women's restrooms. I have been to several Wikimanias and I don't recall any >>>>> related problems having occurred, but I do see that it is a vald concern as >>>>> there have been incidients of harassment by males who identify as women in >>>>> other public events. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, best wishes for a safe and fruitful Wikimania :) >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, 20:22 Wikimania, wikimania@wikimedia.org >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> Many of you are starting to plan your trips, and we’ve been >>>>>> receiving a lot of questions related to travel to Singapore: visas, >>>>>> vaccines, hotels, weather… We invite you to take a look at our Travel >>>>>> page on the Wikimania Wiki >>>>>> https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2023:Travel, with >>>>>> subpages for e-visas, attendee information, and accommodations. Feel free >>>>>> to leave a message on any relevant talk pages or reach out to us at >>>>>> wikimania@wikimedia.org http://Wikimania@wikimedia.org if >>>>>> anything is unclear or incomplete. >>>>>> >>>>>> To highlight one point–many countries are visa-free for >>>>>> Singapore, but everyone needs to fill out a Singapore entry card before >>>>>> arrival. Also Singapore requires a yellow fever vaccine from many >>>>>> countries–please see if yours is on the list! >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Butch Bustria* >>>>>> >>>>>> On behalf of the Core Organizing Team >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org >> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe send an email to > wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org >
-- Boodarwun Gnangarra 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar koortaboodjar'
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