Mark Richards wrote: But how to "not feed" him? Let him have his way with an article? Shall we allow Paul Vogel to have his way and post articles advocating for Cosmotheism and White Separatism? --Jimbo

Yes, well described. Fred

Christopher Mahan wrote: Indeed. And reasonable people can (and do!) differ in how to make that separation, both in principle and in terms of the evaluation of specific facts. --Jimbo

Well, I'm not advocating for the rights to troll (I don't think vandalism has anything to do with this, since its already covered) - I'm just saying that the current way of dealing with trolling isn't very effective. Ignoring things that are not vandalism or malicious article edits might be better than providing fertile ground for more trolling. The username issue is the biggest one of concern to me, I think that we're setting ourselves up for a whole new round of trolling over 'if admins can ban users with 'troll' in their name, what other names can I get away with'. By just ignoring these usernames (unless they are attacks on users, genuinely offensive etc) this game would not start. Mark --- Rick <giantsrick13(a)yahoo.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover

Well, I don't know, I havn't been following the details, my frustration is just over the level of time and energy that is put into this. I thought that there were moves afoot to ban people simply for having 'troll' in their username, but honestly couldn't care less one way or another, the whole discussion (on the talk etc pages) just seems to me to be troll food. Sorry to go on about this, I'm just kind of fed up of the whole thing, but then, I guess we all are. Mark --- Jimmy Wales <jwales(a)bomis.com> wrote: __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover

The current policy on blocking provides that users with names that are objectionable to at least "some" users can be blocked after refusal to select another name. I have been treatening to block [[Troll Silent, Troll Deep]] under that policy but am awaiting a decision in JRR Trollkien. See TSTD's talk page. JRR Trollkien was unblocked so he could participate in arbitration. By the way, it is only the name not the user who would be blocked. Jimbo, do you feel that policy should be changed? Or that it doesn't exist? Fred

Fred Bauder wrote: This is far removed from objectionable names. That had to do with names that were broadly objectionable for political, religious or obscenity grounds. "Troll" doesn't fall into any of these categories. From what I can see these individuals have done nothing more offensive than to choose names that are not approved by a self-appointed cabal of constipated con-troll freaks. If they have engaged in other misbehaviour that would be a separate matter which should be judged on its own merits. By creating this alleged policy you generate a whole new class of offended people who will quite rightly take steps to challenge the policy, such as by choosing names that include "troll". Are all of these so-called policies really valid? They are mostly driven my people with an axe to grind, and ignored by the rest of us who prefer to spend our time constructively. This is bound to produce biased votes. Democratic principles are fine with me until I start to realize that the old benevolent monarch is being replaced by a cadre of crypto-dictators who have banned benevolence from their vocabularies. Or from the 12th Hexagram of the I Ching (Wilhelm/Baynes edition) Heaven and earth do not unite; The image of STANDSTILL. Thus the superior man falls back upon his inner worth In order to escape the difficulties. He does not permit himself to be honored with revenue. And in Wilhelm's commentary thereon "When, owing to the influence of inferior men, mutual mistrust prevails in public life, fruitful activity is rendered impossible, because the fundaments are wrong. Therefore the superior man knows what he must do under such circumstances; he does not allow himself to be tempted by dazzling offers to take part in public activities. This would only expose him to danger, since he cannot assent to the meanness of the others. Hetherefore hides his worth and withdraws into seclusion." Ec

You should write a sociology of trolling Fred! I guess I agree that 'troll' usernames are probably a flag indicating disatisfaction with something, but there has to be a way to funnel that into an opportunity to express that, otherwise you just drive it into more and more nefarious trolling. I don't think I really approve of removing comments (however inflamatory) from the request for review of admin actions - let them stay there, let people have their say, and archive it later. Its kind of a troll ju-jitsu - let them post on discussion pages (as long as it's not offensive etc), but ignore it, if there's enough, shift it to a sub-page and ignore it. Responding to it (even by reverting it) is playing along, which is feeding the trolls. I understand I hold a somewhat extreme view on this, so feel free to ignore me, but I would love to get agreement from everyone to try it for a week or so, just to see... Mark --- Fred Bauder <fredbaud(a)ctelco.net> wrote: __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover

Because I'm tired of being criticised for doing the right thing? RickK Charles Matthews <charles.r.matthews(a)ntlworld.com> wrote: little actual editing of articles) who are more concerned about giving the trolls the right to troll and vandalize, and will attack and try to get banned those of us actually out to make an Encyclopedia instead of a trollopedia. RickK I don't like posts that use the existence of trolls on Wikipedia to attack others. How can this help? Charles _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

It certainly is. So why do they do it? RickK Charles Matthews <charles.r.matthews(a)ntlworld.com> wrote: Point: isn't it PLAYING INTO THE HANDS of trolldom to attack colleagues, who happen to disagree with your version of troll-handling? Point: against WHAT IS THE POINT OF HAVING THE POWER IF YOU NEVER USE IT, there is WHAT IS THE POINT OF HAVING THE POWER IF YOU CONSTANTLY HAVE TO USE IT. The world today ... oh well, some people are just blinkered, anyway. Charles _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs