Hello, Claims with surname properties are sometimes impossible. For instance, I tried to add the surname of René Grivart https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18330867, but as I typed "Grivart" in the property value, the "save" link stays unclickable. Should we systematically create an item associated with the surname ? Thanks,
On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 2:55 PM, Jean-Baptiste Pressac Jean-Baptiste.Pressac@univ-brest.fr wrote:
Hello, Claims with surname properties are sometimes impossible. For instance, I tried to add the surname of René Grivart, but as I typed "Grivart" in the property value, the "save" link stays unclickable. Should we systematically create an item associated with the surname ?
That's how the community set it up, yes. The property has type item. This means it can only link to existing items.
Cheers Lydia
Am 03.11.2014 17:31, schrieb Lydia Pintscher:
On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 2:55 PM, Jean-Baptiste Pressac Jean-Baptiste.Pressac@univ-brest.fr wrote:
Hello, Claims with surname properties are sometimes impossible. For instance, I tried to add the surname of René Grivart, but as I typed "Grivart" in the property value, the "save" link stays unclickable. Should we systematically create an item associated with the surname ?
That's how the community set it up, yes. The property has type item. This means it can only link to existing items.
I think the idea is to use this property only if the surename itself is of interested, and thus has a data item. The same is true for the corresponding "given name" property. In many instances, this would not be the case.
Having a separate field for the surname in general doesn't seem to useful to me, and could even be misleading. The concept of a "surname" as such is a western concept, and doesn't translate well to other culures. In fact, there isn't much we can assume about names at all, see http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-nam...
Generally, there's just "the name", which would be given as the item's label (or an alias). IF that isn't sufficient, perhaps P1448 ("official name") could be used: that's a (monolingual) text property.
For many surnames there are list articles or disambiguation items that can be used as the target for this property but not, I think, in this case.
Joe On 3 Nov 2014 17:04, "Daniel Kinzler" daniel.kinzler@wikimedia.de wrote:
Am 03.11.2014 17:31, schrieb Lydia Pintscher:
On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 2:55 PM, Jean-Baptiste Pressac Jean-Baptiste.Pressac@univ-brest.fr wrote:
Hello, Claims with surname properties are sometimes impossible. For instance,
I tried to add the surname of René Grivart, but as I typed "Grivart" in the property value, the "save" link stays unclickable. Should we systematically create an item associated with the surname ?
That's how the community set it up, yes. The property has type item. This means it can only link to existing items.
I think the idea is to use this property only if the surename itself is of interested, and thus has a data item. The same is true for the corresponding "given name" property. In many instances, this would not be the case.
Having a separate field for the surname in general doesn't seem to useful to me, and could even be misleading. The concept of a "surname" as such is a western concept, and doesn't translate well to other culures. In fact, there isn't much we can assume about names at all, see
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-nam...
Generally, there's just "the name", which would be given as the item's label (or an alias). IF that isn't sufficient, perhaps P1448 ("official name") could be used: that's a (monolingual) text property.
-- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer
Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Am 03.11.2014 20:31, schrieb Joe Filceolaire:
For many surnames there are list articles or disambiguation items that can be used as the target for this property but not, I think, in this case.
Note that articles about surnames often cover various spelling variants. This means that the value of the "surname" property may not use/show the "correct" spelling for the person in question.
On 11/03/2014 09:10 PM, Daniel Kinzler wrote:
Am 03.11.2014 20:31, schrieb Joe Filceolaire:
For many surnames there are list articles or disambiguation items that can be used as the target for this property but not, I think, in this case.
Note that articles about surnames often cover various spelling variants. This means that the value of the "surname" property may not use/show the "correct" spelling for the person in question.
I think there recently has been a tendency to move away from one Q incorporating multiple spellings in name descriptions. For example
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q2782528 (Nelson) https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q15829860 (Nilsson) https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q16744689 (Nielsen)
Although one will find, e.g., Brigitte Nielsen claimed with the given name Brigit still. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q154519
best regards Finn Årup Nielsen
On 11/03/2014 06:03 PM, Daniel Kinzler wrote:
Having a separate field for the surname in general doesn't seem to useful to me, and could even be misleading. The concept of a "surname" as such is a western concept, and doesn't translate well to other culures. In fact, there isn't much we can assume about names at all, see http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-nam...
Perhaps it is better to call it "family name" rather than surname to accommodate Asian ordering of given name and family name. Familienname and nom de famille are "correct" in that sense.
-- Finn Årup Nielsen
On 04/11/2014 09:38, "Finn Årup Nielsen" fn@imm.dtu.dk wrote:
On 11/03/2014 06:03 PM, Daniel Kinzler wrote:
Having a separate field for the surname in general doesn't seem to useful to me, and could even be misleading. The concept of a "surname" as such is a western concept, and doesn't translate well to other culures. In fact, there isn't much we can assume about names at all, see
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about- names/
Perhaps it is better to call it "family name" rather than surname to accommodate Asian ordering of given name and family name. Familienname and nom de famille are "correct" in that sense.
If this is about sorting names in lists, then I am a big fan of the MusicBrainz approach of a Sort Name field - this is a field than can be used for sorting but doesn't typically get displayed - this makes it very flexible and compatible with all kinds of different naming conventions from around the world:
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Style/Artist/Sort_Name
Examples: Humfrey, Nicholas Beatles, The Connick Jr., Harry
nick.
On 04/11/2014 09:51, Nicholas Humfrey wrote:
On 04/11/2014 09:38, "Finn Årup Nielsen" fn@imm.dtu.dk wrote:
On 11/03/2014 06:03 PM, Daniel Kinzler wrote:
Having a separate field for the surname in general doesn't seem to useful to me, and could even be misleading. The concept of a "surname" as such is a western concept, and doesn't translate well to other culures. In fact, there isn't much we can assume about names at all, see
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about- names/
Perhaps it is better to call it "family name" rather than surname to accommodate Asian ordering of given name and family name. Familienname and nom de famille are "correct" in that sense.
If this is about sorting names in lists, then I am a big fan of the MusicBrainz approach of a Sort Name field - this is a field than can be used for sorting but doesn't typically get displayed - this makes it very flexible and compatible with all kinds of different naming conventions from around the world:
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Style/Artist/Sort_Name
Examples: Humfrey, Nicholas Beatles, The Connick Jr., Harry
Note that there is a proposal currently open to create a property for just this:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Property_proposal/Generic#Sort_key
More eyes and input on that discussion would be useful.
-- James
Jean-Baptiste Pressac, 03/11/2014 14:55:
Claims with surname properties are sometimes impossible. For instance, I tried to add the surname of René Grivart https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18330867, but as I typed "Grivart" in the property value, the "save" link stays unclickable. Should we systematically create an item associated with the surname ?
It would be interesting to know how many given names and family names were not imported from it.wiki's {{bio}} by Amir due to not existing.
In general the notability policy states that you can create an item if it's required to state something about a notable item, IIRC. As Daniel noted, however, the usefulness of these properties (and statements) may be questionable.
Nemo
