Hoi, You assume that it is not good to have lexicological information in our existing items. With Wiktionary support you bring such information on board. It would be really awkward when for every concept there has to be an item in two databases. Why is there this problem with lexicologival information and how will the current data be linked to the future "Wiktionary-data" information if there are to be two databases? Thanks, GerardM PS I cannot find this question or an answer in the PDF. On 13 September 2016 at 15:17, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher(a)wikimedia.de&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Am 13.09.2016 um 15:37 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: existing would be databases. It will be two namespaces in the same project. But we will not duplicate items. The proposed structure is not concept-centered like Omegawiki is. It will be centered about lexemes, like Wiktionary is, but with a higher level of granularity (a lexeme corresponds to one "morphological" section on a Wiktionary page). there are Because "bumblebee" <instance-of> "noun" conflicts with "bumblebee" <subclass-of> "insect". They can't both be true for the same thing, because nouns are not insects. One is true for the word, the other is true for the concept. So they need to be treated separately. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Am 13.09.2016 um 17:16 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: and all Wikidata will have Lexemes and their Forms and Senses. English "hommels" Wikidata would have a Lexeme for "bumblebee" (english noun) and one for "Hommel" (dutch noun). Both would have a sense that would describe them as a flying insect (and perhaps other word senses, such as Q1626135, a creater on the moon). The senses that refer to the flying insect would be considered translations of each other, and both senses would refer to the same concept. So "bumblebee" (insect) is a translation of "Hommel" (insect), and both refer to the genus Bombus (Q25407). "Hommel" (creater) would share the morphology of "Hommel" (insect), as it has the same forms (I assume), but it won't share the translations. Having lexeme-specific word-senses avoids the loss of connotation and nuance that you get when you force words of different languages on a shared meaning. The effect of referring to the same concept can still be achieved via the reference to a concept (item). -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Héllo, I am very happy of this news. I a wiki newbie interested in using wikidata to do text analysis. I try to follow the discussion here and on french wiktionary. I take this as opportunity to try to sum up some concerns that are raised on french wiktionary [0]: - How wikidata and wiktionary databases will be synchronized? - Will editing wiktionary change? The concern is that this will make editing wiktionary more difficult for people. - Also, what about bots. Will bots be allowed/able to edit wiktionary pages after the support of wikidata in wiktionary? - Another concern is that if edits are done in some wiktionary and that edit has an impact on another wiktionary. People will have trouble to reconcil their opinion given they don't speak the same language. Can an edit in a wiktionary A break wiktionary B? I understand that wikidata requires new code to support the organisation of new relations between the data. I understand that with wikidata it will be easy to create interwiki links and thesaurus kind of pages but what else can provide wikidata to wiktionary? [0] https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Projet:Coop%C3%A9ration/Wikidata Thanks, i⋅am⋅amz3 On 2016-09-13 15:17, Lydia Pintscher wrote: -- Amirouche ~ amz3 ~ http://www.hyperdev.fr _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Hello, Thanks a lot for your questions and feedbacks. Here are some answers, I hope these will be useful. /- How wikidata and wiktionary databases will be synchronized?/ New entity types will be created in Wikidata database, with new ids (ex. L for lexemes). A Wiktionary will have the possibility to include data from Wikidata in their pages (the complete entity or only some chosen statements, as the community decides) /- Will editing wiktionary change?/ Yes, changes will happen, but we're working on making editing Wiktionary easier. Soon as we can provide some mockups, we will share them with you for collecting feedbacks. /- Will bots be allowed/able to edit wiktionary pages after the support of wikidata in wiktionary?/ Yes, of course, we want the data to be machine-readable and editable, and with the new structure, bots will be able to edit data stored in Wikidata and still Wiktionary pages. /- Can an edit in a wiktionary A break wiktionary B?/ Data about lexemes will be stored on Wikidata, and Wiktionaries will choose if they want to use this data, which part of it and how. Yes, if an information stored in Wikidata and displayed on several Wiktionaries is modified, via Wikidata or a Wiktionary interface, this will affect all the pages where the information is included. Because Wikidata is a multilingual project, we already have to deal with the language issue, and we hope that with the increase of the numbers of editors coming from Wikidata and Wiktionaries, it will become easier to find people with at least one common language to communicate between the different projects. /- What else can provide wikidata to wiktionary?/ Machine-readable data will allow users to create new tools, useful for editors, based on the communities' needs. By helping the different communities (Wiktionaries and Wikidata) working together on the same project, we expect a growth of the number of people editing the lexicographical data, providing more review and a better quality of the data. Finally, when centralized and structured, the data will be easily reusable by third parties, other websites or applications... and give a better visibility of the volunteers' work. On 13 September 2016 at 22:53, Amirouche Boubekki &lt;amirouche(a)hypermove.net <mailto:amirouche@hypermove.net>> wrote: Héllo, I am very happy of this news. I a wiki newbie interested in using wikidata to do text analysis. I try to follow the discussion here and on french wiktionary. I take this as opportunity to try to sum up some concerns that are raised on french wiktionary [0]: - How wikidata and wiktionary databases will be synchronized? - Will editing wiktionary change? The concern is that this will make editing wiktionary more difficult for people. - Also, what about bots. Will bots be allowed/able to edit wiktionary pages after the support of wikidata in wiktionary? - Another concern is that if edits are done in some wiktionary and that edit has an impact on another wiktionary. People will have trouble to reconcil their opinion given they don't speak the same language. Can an edit in a wiktionary A break wiktionary B? I understand that wikidata requires new code to support the organisation of new relations between the data. I understand that with wikidata it will be easy to create interwiki links and thesaurus kind of pages but what else can provide wikidata to wiktionary? [0] https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Projet:Coop%C3%A9ration/Wikidata <https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Projet:Coop%C3%A9ration/Wikidata> Thanks, i⋅am⋅amz3 On 2016-09-13 15:17, Lydia Pintscher wrote: Hey everyone :) Wiktionary is our third-largest sister project, both in term of active editors and readers. It is a unique resource, with the goal to provide a dictionary for every language, in every language. Since the beginning of Wikidata but increasingly over the past months I have been getting more and more requests for supporting Wiktionary and lexicographical data in Wikidata. Having this data available openly and freely licensed would be a major step forward in automated translation, text analysis, text generation and much more. It will enable and ease research. And most importantly it will enable the individual Wiktionary communities to work more closely together and benefit from each other’s work. With this and the increased demand to support Wikimedia Commons with Wikidata, we have looked at the bigger picture and our options. I am seeing a lot of overlap in the work we need to do to support Wiktionary and Commons. I am also seeing increasing pressure to store lexicographical data in existing items (which would be bad for many reasons). Because of this we will start implementing support for Wiktionary in parallel to Commons based on our annual plan and quarterly plans. We contacted several of our partners in order to get funding for this additional work. I am happy that Google agreed to provide funding (restricted to work on Wikidata). With this we can reorganize our team and set up one part of the team to continue working on building out the core of Wikidata and support for Wikipedia and Commons and the other part will concentrate on Wiktionary. (To support and to extend our work around Wikidata with the help of external funding sources was our plan in our annual plan 2016: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/Proposals/2015-2016_round1/Wikim… <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/Proposals/2015-2016_round1/Wikimedia_Deutschland_e.V./Proposal_form#Financials:_current_funding_period>) As a next step I’d like us all to have another careful look at the latest proposal at https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary/Development <https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary/Development>. It has been online for input in its current form for a year and the first version is 3 years old now. So I am confident that the proposal is in a good shape to start implementation. However I’d like to do a last round of feedback with you all to make sure the concept really is sane. To make it easier to understand there is now also a pdf explaining the concept in a slightly different way: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikidata_for_Wiktionary_announcemen… <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikidata_for_Wiktionary_announcement.pdf> Please do go ahead and review it. If you have comments or questions please leave them on the talk page of the latest proposal at https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata_talk:Wiktionary/Development/Proposal… <https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata_talk:Wiktionary/Development/Proposals/2015-05>. I’d be especially interested in feedback from editors who are familiar with both Wiktionary and Wikidata. Getting support for Wiktionary done - just like for Commons - will take some time but I am really excited about the opportunities it will open up especially for languages that have so far not gotten much or any technological support. Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher <http://about.me/lydia.pintscher> Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de <http://www.wikimedia.de> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207 <tel:27%2F029%2F42207>. _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata> -- Amirouche ~ amz3 ~ http://www.hyperdev.fr _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata> -- Léa Lacroix Community Communication Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de <http://www.wikimedia.de> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207. _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

*- How wikidata and wiktionary databases will be synchronized?* New entity types will be created in Wikidata database, with new ids (ex. L for lexemes). A Wiktionary will have the possibility to include data from Wikidata in their pages (the complete entity or only some chosen statements, as the community decides) The pdf mentions 4 new entity types: Lexeme, Statement, Form, Embedded (?). Curious, was the existing data model not flexible enough? Will these new entities be restricted to the usage in a lexicographical context, i.e. Wiktionary? How will they fit into the existing data model, will there be links from existing Wikidata items to the new entities? (i.e. how will Wikidata benefit from the new data?) *- Will editing wiktionary change?* Yes, changes will happen, but we're working on making editing Wiktionary easier. Soon as we can provide some mockups, we will share them with you for collecting feedbacks. Making contributing to Wiktionary easier will be a huge help. Right now the learning curve is extremely steep, and turning away potential contributors. One thing to keep in mind is that Wiktionary is more than just the content in the page namespace. A big part of what you see is actually generated dynamically, for example transliteration, pronunciation and grammatical forms (conjugations, plurals etc). I imagine in an integrated Wikidata/Wiktionary world "content" and code lives in various places, and we'll have a range of automated processes to copy things back and forth, and to automatically create new entries derived from existing ones? – Jan _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Yes, there should be some connection between items and lexemes, but I am still hazy about details on how exactly this should look like. If someone could actually make a strawman proposal, that would be great. I think the connection should live in the statement space, and not be on the level of labels, but that is just a hunch. I'd be happy to see proposals incoming.

Denny, I would suggest to use https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/product as that strawman proposal. Because it has 2 levels of Senses. 3. Anything that is produced (contains 6 sub-senses)

Daniel, I wasn't trying to help solve the issues - I'll be quite now :) ​I was helping to expose one of your test cases :)​

'product' is a lexeme - a headword - a basic unit of meaning that has a 'set of forms' and those have 'a set of definitions'

​But a thought just occured to me... A. In order to model this perhaps would be to have those headwords stored in Wikidata. Those headwords ideally would not actually be a Q or a P ... but what about instead ... L​ ? Wrapping the graph structure itself ? Pros / Cons ?

B. or do we go with Daniel's suggestion of linking out to headwords and not actually storing them in Wikidata ? Pros / Cons ?

Am 16.09.2016 um 19:41 schrieb Denny Vrandečić: still the incoming. My thinking is this: On some Sense of a Lexeme, there is a Statement saying that this Sense refers to a given concept (Item). If the property for stating this is well-known, we can track the Sense-to-Item relationship in the database. We can then automatically show the lexeme's lemma as a (pseudo-)alias on the Item, and perhaps also use it (and maybe all forms of the lexeme!) for indexing the item for search. So: from ( Lexeme - Sense - Statement -> Item ) we can derive ( Item -> Lexeme - Forms ) In the beginning of Wikidata, I was very reluctant about the software knowing about "magic" properties. Now I feel better about this, since wikidata properties are established as a permanent vocabulary that can be used by any software, including our own. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

The pdf mentions 4 new entity types: Lexeme, Statement, Form, Embedded (?).

Curious, was the existing data model not flexible enough?

Will these new entities be restricted to the usage in a lexicographical context, i.e. Wiktionary?

How will they fit into the existing data model, will there be links from existing Wikidata items to the new entities? (i.e. how will Wikidata benefit from the new data?)

I imagine in an integrated Wikidata/Wiktionary world "content" and code lives in various places, and we'll have a range of automated processes to copy things back and forth, and to automatically create new entries derived from existing ones?

A substantial amount of work in the LOD community seems to have gone into Ontolex: https://www.w3.org/community/ontolex/wiki/Final_Model_Specification Is there any concern with aligning WD's model to this standard?

From a first look, the models seem to roughly align:

The DBnary project "Wiktionary as Linguistic Linked Open Data" at: http://kaiko.getalp.org/about-dbnary/ http://kaiko.getalp.org/sparql can be used as a reference. I am basing my IEG project to visualize etymologies from Wktionary on it: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/A_graphical_and_interactive_etym… is based on at project/ Cheers, Ester On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 7:39 PM, Daniel Kinzler < daniel.kinzler(a)wikimedia.de&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata