I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_...
It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between a list, a category, and a query? Not much, really.
I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the same as the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries
Any thoughts about it?
Cheers, Micru
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_...
It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between a list, a category, and a query? Not much, really.
I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the same as the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries
Any thoughts about it?
I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately.
The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work: * someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg "everything that has author = Douglas Adams") * the result of the query is a list of items matching the query * the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article "List of works by Douglas Adams" would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata)
Cheers Lydia
Hi Lydia, in languages such as OWL, a class of item can be defined by a predicate on the properties and values of the item. Will we be able to link a class Qitem to a Wikidata complex query in the corresponding namespace ? For example if we define a class "Douglas Adams Novels" whose instances are the members of the example query you gave ?
2014-03-06 19:24 GMT+01:00 Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de:
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_...
It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between a
list,
a category, and a query? Not much, really.
I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the same
as
the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries
Any thoughts about it?
I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately.
The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work:
- someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg
"everything that has author = Douglas Adams")
- the result of the query is a list of items matching the query
- the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it
in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article "List of works by Douglas Adams" would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata)
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 8:32 PM, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Lydia, in languages such as OWL, a class of item can be defined by a predicate on the properties and values of the item. Will we be able to link a class Qitem to a Wikidata complex query in the corresponding namespace ? For example if we define a class "Douglas Adams Novels" whose instances are the members of the example query you gave ?
I can imagine a statement you can make on the item linking to the query. This would work in a similar way that you can now link to other items. But I'm not sure I see the reason beyond "because we can" yet.
Cheers Lydia
I think the issue is simply a problem of terminology right now.
Wikidata as it is does have no support for "Classes".
In the future, there will be Wikidata Queries.
A Wikidata Query is similar to a class description in OWL.
There is no need to create an item "Douglas Adams Novels". You can, though, have a Query "Douglas Adams Novels", and change its label, etc. Wikidata Queries will also have labels, an ID, etc.
Does this make sense?
On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 11:33:36 AM, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lydia, in languages such as OWL, a class of item can be defined by a predicate on the properties and values of the item. Will we be able to link a class Qitem to a Wikidata complex query in the corresponding namespace ? For example if we define a class "Douglas Adams Novels" whose instances are the members of the example query you gave ?
2014-03-06 19:24 GMT+01:00 Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de:
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_...
It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between a
list,
a category, and a query? Not much, really.
I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the same
as
the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries
Any thoughts about it?
I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately.
The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work:
- someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg
"everything that has author = Douglas Adams")
- the result of the query is a list of items matching the query
- the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it
in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article "List of works by Douglas Adams" would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata)
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
I guess then the question is how we will handle the articulation between class and queries then, we have a ''subclass of" property which uses items as value. The same relation exists beetween queries.
In my view the answers of the query as instances and explicitely stating that an item as instance of some class are not totally redundant, at least in reality : we can have a situation in Wikidata where someone just entered the instance of value on an item without setting other properties which would make it a result in the corresponding query.
This would be an inconsistency for a OWL reasoner maybe, but it's a hint that there is missing properties or omething wrong in the database for Wikidatans ... So it's not totally redundant in term on vandalism robustness or error handling : if a change is made the put an item out of a query result but the equivalent instance of statement is set, we can have a hint in a database report. As Wikidata is a wiki, I think this is something that is worth thinking of.
2014-03-06 20:42 GMT+01:00 Denny Vrandečić vrandecic@gmail.com:
I think the issue is simply a problem of terminology right now.
Wikidata as it is does have no support for "Classes".
In the future, there will be Wikidata Queries.
A Wikidata Query is similar to a class description in OWL.
There is no need to create an item "Douglas Adams Novels". You can, though, have a Query "Douglas Adams Novels", and change its label, etc. Wikidata Queries will also have labels, an ID, etc.
Does this make sense?
On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 11:33:36 AM, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lydia, in languages such as OWL, a class of item can be defined by a predicate on the properties and values of the item. Will we be able to link a class Qitem to a Wikidata complex query in the corresponding namespace ? For example if we define a class "Douglas Adams Novels" whose instances are the members of the example query you gave ?
2014-03-06 19:24 GMT+01:00 Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de :
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_...
It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between a
list,
a category, and a query? Not much, really.
I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the
same as
the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries
Any thoughts about it?
I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately.
The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work:
- someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg
"everything that has author = Douglas Adams")
- the result of the query is a list of items matching the query
- the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it
in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article "List of works by Douglas Adams" would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata)
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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Thomas,
I have asked you several times to talk with me one on one. You seem not to be willing to do so and you continue to spout what is nonsense to me. I am frustrated. For instance what do you call queries. Thanks, GerardM
PS you know how to reach me.
On 7 March 2014 11:47, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
I guess then the question is how we will handle the articulation between class and queries then, we have a ''subclass of" property which uses items as value. The same relation exists beetween queries.
In my view the answers of the query as instances and explicitely stating that an item as instance of some class are not totally redundant, at least in reality : we can have a situation in Wikidata where someone just entered the instance of value on an item without setting other properties which would make it a result in the corresponding query.
This would be an inconsistency for a OWL reasoner maybe, but it's a hint that there is missing properties or omething wrong in the database for Wikidatans ... So it's not totally redundant in term on vandalism robustness or error handling : if a change is made the put an item out of a query result but the equivalent instance of statement is set, we can have a hint in a database report. As Wikidata is a wiki, I think this is something that is worth thinking of.
2014-03-06 20:42 GMT+01:00 Denny Vrandečić vrandecic@gmail.com:
I think the issue is simply a problem of terminology right now.
Wikidata as it is does have no support for "Classes".
In the future, there will be Wikidata Queries.
A Wikidata Query is similar to a class description in OWL.
There is no need to create an item "Douglas Adams Novels". You can, though, have a Query "Douglas Adams Novels", and change its label, etc. Wikidata Queries will also have labels, an ID, etc.
Does this make sense?
On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 11:33:36 AM, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lydia, in languages such as OWL, a class of item can be defined by a predicate on the properties and values of the item. Will we be able to link a class Qitem to a Wikidata complex query in the corresponding namespace ? For example if we define a class "Douglas Adams Novels" whose instances are the members of the example query you gave ?
2014-03-06 19:24 GMT+01:00 Lydia Pintscher <lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de
:
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_...
It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between
a list,
a category, and a query? Not much, really.
I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the
same as
the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries
Any thoughts about it?
I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately.
The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work:
- someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg
"everything that has author = Douglas Adams")
- the result of the query is a list of items matching the query
- the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it
in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article "List of works by Douglas Adams" would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata)
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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The point I wanted to make (following your example), is that the Wikidata Query "All novels by Douglas Adams" is equivalent to the item "Category:Novels by Douglas Adams" [1]. In other cases there will be even 3 items representing the same information: the wd query, the category item, and a "list of..." item. So I'm just wondering if this complexity is really needed for structural/technical reasons.
Maybe there is an easier way instead of linking to the wd query with a "category's main query" property?
Cheers, Micru
[1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8687492
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_...
It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between a
list,
a category, and a query? Not much, really.
I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the same
as
the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries
Any thoughts about it?
I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately.
The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work:
- someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg
"everything that has author = Douglas Adams")
- the result of the query is a list of items matching the query
- the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it
in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article "List of works by Douglas Adams" would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata)
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
But that's simply not the case. The Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre [1] or Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien [2} neither are a complete list of books by those authors (e.g. Sartre's fictional books are missing, Tolkien's non-fictional *and* Middle earth books are missing), nor are they only including books by Tolkien (e.g. they also include templates and other categories, which are likely not written by Sartre or Tolkien).
If the plan is to change the way categories are used in Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia wikis, I'd say this is a very different goal, but should be discussed on those wikis.
List-articles often contain much more love and care than a Wikidata query result will for a while. I don't think that replacing an article like the list of books by David Foster Wallace [3] the List of US Presidents [4] with a single simple query is a short-term goal.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_Jean-Paul_Sartre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_J._R._R._Tolkien [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_by_David_Foster_Wallace [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_Presidents
On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 1:49:54 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
The point I wanted to make (following your example), is that the Wikidata Query "All novels by Douglas Adams" is equivalent to the item "Category:Novels by Douglas Adams" [1]. In other cases there will be even 3 items representing the same information: the wd query, the category item, and a "list of..." item. So I'm just wondering if this complexity is really needed for structural/technical reasons.
Maybe there is an easier way instead of linking to the wd query with a "category's main query" property?
Cheers, Micru
[1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8687492
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_...
It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between a
list,
a category, and a query? Not much, really.
I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the same
as
the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries
Any thoughts about it?
I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately.
The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work:
- someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg
"everything that has author = Douglas Adams")
- the result of the query is a list of items matching the query
- the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it
in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article "List of works by Douglas Adams" would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata)
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
-- Etiamsi omnes, ego non _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
I'm not saying that the results yielded by "Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre" or "Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien" are or should be the same as the result yielded by a corresponding Wikidata query, but the concepts they represent, they are the same. Ditto for lists. (As a further clarification, I didn't mention anything about changing Wikipedia categories or Wikipedia lists either.)
My question was regarding the functionality of WD items associated with Wikipedia categories and Wikipedia lists. Conceptually those items represent (or can represent) queries. WDQ, the tool by Magnus, already can interpret certain statements as queries [1]. Would it make sense to replicate that functionality on Wikidata?
Cheers, Micru
[1] http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 11:16 PM, Denny Vrandečić vrandecic@gmail.comwrote:
But that's simply not the case. The Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre [1] or Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien [2} neither are a complete list of books by those authors (e.g. Sartre's fictional books are missing, Tolkien's non-fictional *and* Middle earth books are missing), nor are they only including books by Tolkien (e.g. they also include templates and other categories, which are likely not written by Sartre or Tolkien).
If the plan is to change the way categories are used in Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia wikis, I'd say this is a very different goal, but should be discussed on those wikis.
List-articles often contain much more love and care than a Wikidata query result will for a while. I don't think that replacing an article like the list of books by David Foster Wallace [3] the List of US Presidents [4] with a single simple query is a short-term goal.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_Jean-Paul_Sartre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_J._R._R._Tolkien [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_by_David_Foster_Wallace [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_Presidents
On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 1:49:54 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
The point I wanted to make (following your example), is that the Wikidata Query "All novels by Douglas Adams" is equivalent to the item "Category:Novels by Douglas Adams" [1]. In other cases there will be even 3 items representing the same information: the wd query, the category item, and a "list of..." item. So I'm just wondering if this complexity is really needed for structural/technical reasons.
Maybe there is an easier way instead of linking to the wd query with a "category's main query" property?
Cheers, Micru
[1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8687492
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_...
It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between a
list,
a category, and a query? Not much, really.
I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the
same as
the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries
Any thoughts about it?
I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately.
The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work:
- someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg
"everything that has author = Douglas Adams")
- the result of the query is a list of items matching the query
- the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it
in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article "List of works by Douglas Adams" would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata)
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
-- Etiamsi omnes, ego non _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Since I am obviously bad at guessing what you mean, can you please explicate what you mean with "replicate that functionality on Wikidata"?
Sorry, I am too dense to understand it.
What do you want to happen, explicitly?
I go to http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6573995 - how should it be different from what it displays today?
Do you want the item pages to have the feature to directly embed query results, instead of having a one-click distance to the actual query page and its results?
Or is there more to it?
On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 3:10:44 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not saying that the results yielded by "Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre" or "Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien" are or should be the same as the result yielded by a corresponding Wikidata query, but the concepts they represent, they are the same. Ditto for lists. (As a further clarification, I didn't mention anything about changing Wikipedia categories or Wikipedia lists either.)
My question was regarding the functionality of WD items associated with Wikipedia categories and Wikipedia lists. Conceptually those items represent (or can represent) queries. WDQ, the tool by Magnus, already can interpret certain statements as queries [1]. Would it make sense to replicate that functionality on Wikidata?
Cheers, Micru
[1] http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 11:16 PM, Denny Vrandečić vrandecic@gmail.comwrote:
But that's simply not the case. The Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre [1] or Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien [2} neither are a complete list of books by those authors (e.g. Sartre's fictional books are missing, Tolkien's non-fictional *and* Middle earth books are missing), nor are they only including books by Tolkien (e.g. they also include templates and other categories, which are likely not written by Sartre or Tolkien).
If the plan is to change the way categories are used in Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia wikis, I'd say this is a very different goal, but should be discussed on those wikis.
List-articles often contain much more love and care than a Wikidata query result will for a while. I don't think that replacing an article like the list of books by David Foster Wallace [3] the List of US Presidents [4] with a single simple query is a short-term goal.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_Jean-Paul_Sartre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_J._R._R._Tolkien [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_by_David_Foster_Wallace [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_Presidents
On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 1:49:54 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
The point I wanted to make (following your example), is that the Wikidata Query "All novels by Douglas Adams" is equivalent to the item "Category:Novels by Douglas Adams" [1]. In other cases there will be even 3 items representing the same information: the wd query, the category item, and a "list of..." item. So I'm just wondering if this complexity is really needed for structural/technical reasons.
Maybe there is an easier way instead of linking to the wd query with a "category's main query" property?
Cheers, Micru
[1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8687492
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_...
It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between
a list,
a category, and a query? Not much, really.
I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the
same as
the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries
Any thoughts about it?
I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately.
The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work:
- someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg
"everything that has author = Douglas Adams")
- the result of the query is a list of items matching the query
- the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it
in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article "List of works by Douglas Adams" would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata)
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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I think the question is, should we have WDQ-like queries run (automatically?) on Wikidata list/category items? (yes, we should!)
On a separate note, the list vs. category issue is simply solved: On Wikidata, a list is the same as a category. On Wikipedia, this would be true if (and only if) all entries in the list also have pages in the category, that is, there are no red links in the list.
IMHO we could make "complete" (were possible) lists on Wikidata by just creating the missing items and add the statements putting them into the list/category; the fact that a list exists should make the items notable enough, even if they will stay "stub items" for a while.
To make things even more confusing: Lists based on qualifiers! ;-) http://magnusmanske.de/wordpress/?p=178
Cheers, Magnus
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 11:18 PM, Denny Vrandečić vrandecic@gmail.comwrote:
Since I am obviously bad at guessing what you mean, can you please explicate what you mean with "replicate that functionality on Wikidata"?
Sorry, I am too dense to understand it.
What do you want to happen, explicitly?
I go to http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6573995 - how should it be different from what it displays today?
Do you want the item pages to have the feature to directly embed query results, instead of having a one-click distance to the actual query page and its results?
Or is there more to it?
On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 3:10:44 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not saying that the results yielded by "Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre" or "Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien" are or should be the same as the result yielded by a corresponding Wikidata query, but the concepts they represent, they are the same. Ditto for lists. (As a further clarification, I didn't mention anything about changing Wikipedia categories or Wikipedia lists either.)
My question was regarding the functionality of WD items associated with Wikipedia categories and Wikipedia lists. Conceptually those items represent (or can represent) queries. WDQ, the tool by Magnus, already can interpret certain statements as queries [1]. Would it make sense to replicate that functionality on Wikidata?
Cheers, Micru
[1] http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 11:16 PM, Denny Vrandečić vrandecic@gmail.comwrote:
But that's simply not the case. The Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre [1] or Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien [2} neither are a complete list of books by those authors (e.g. Sartre's fictional books are missing, Tolkien's non-fictional *and* Middle earth books are missing), nor are they only including books by Tolkien (e.g. they also include templates and other categories, which are likely not written by Sartre or Tolkien).
If the plan is to change the way categories are used in Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia wikis, I'd say this is a very different goal, but should be discussed on those wikis.
List-articles often contain much more love and care than a Wikidata query result will for a while. I don't think that replacing an article like the list of books by David Foster Wallace [3] the List of US Presidents [4] with a single simple query is a short-term goal.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_Jean-Paul_Sartre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_J._R._R._Tolkien [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_by_David_Foster_Wallace [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_Presidents
On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 1:49:54 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
The point I wanted to make (following your example), is that the Wikidata Query "All novels by Douglas Adams" is equivalent to the item "Category:Novels by Douglas Adams" [1]. In other cases there will be even 3 items representing the same information: the wd query, the category item, and a "list of..." item. So I'm just wondering if this complexity is really needed for structural/technical reasons.
Maybe there is an easier way instead of linking to the wd query with a "category's main query" property?
Cheers, Micru
[1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8687492
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_...
It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between
a list,
a category, and a query? Not much, really.
I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the
same as
the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries
Any thoughts about it?
I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately.
The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work:
- someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg
"everything that has author = Douglas Adams")
- the result of the query is a list of items matching the query
- the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it
in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article "List of works by Douglas Adams" would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata)
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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I think that's a bit early to discuss right now. Yes, it is definitively a possibility.
Wikidata will have pages to display query results, and those pages will have names and everything. We first should implement these, and queries and query pages, and only once there are there and we understand them, we will understand if it makes sense to run the queries and display the queries result automatically in some way on item pages - or if that makes item pages maybe too heavy weight, and having them one click away - like the incoming links - is OK.
Now, I find it a bit preliminary (and will thus click out of this conversation :) )
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 3:41 PM, Magnus Manske magnusmanske@googlemail.comwrote:
I think the question is, should we have WDQ-like queries run (automatically?) on Wikidata list/category items? (yes, we should!)
On a separate note, the list vs. category issue is simply solved: On Wikidata, a list is the same as a category. On Wikipedia, this would be true if (and only if) all entries in the list also have pages in the category, that is, there are no red links in the list.
IMHO we could make "complete" (were possible) lists on Wikidata by just creating the missing items and add the statements putting them into the list/category; the fact that a list exists should make the items notable enough, even if they will stay "stub items" for a while.
To make things even more confusing: Lists based on qualifiers! ;-) http://magnusmanske.de/wordpress/?p=178
Cheers, Magnus
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 11:18 PM, Denny Vrandečić vrandecic@gmail.comwrote:
Since I am obviously bad at guessing what you mean, can you please explicate what you mean with "replicate that functionality on Wikidata"?
Sorry, I am too dense to understand it.
What do you want to happen, explicitly?
I go to http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6573995 - how should it be different from what it displays today?
Do you want the item pages to have the feature to directly embed query results, instead of having a one-click distance to the actual query page and its results?
Or is there more to it?
On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 3:10:44 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not saying that the results yielded by "Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre" or "Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien" are or should be the same as the result yielded by a corresponding Wikidata query, but the concepts they represent, they are the same. Ditto for lists. (As a further clarification, I didn't mention anything about changing Wikipedia categories or Wikipedia lists either.)
My question was regarding the functionality of WD items associated with Wikipedia categories and Wikipedia lists. Conceptually those items represent (or can represent) queries. WDQ, the tool by Magnus, already can interpret certain statements as queries [1]. Would it make sense to replicate that functionality on Wikidata?
Cheers, Micru
[1] http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 11:16 PM, Denny Vrandečić vrandecic@gmail.comwrote:
But that's simply not the case. The Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre [1] or Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien [2} neither are a complete list of books by those authors (e.g. Sartre's fictional books are missing, Tolkien's non-fictional *and* Middle earth books are missing), nor are they only including books by Tolkien (e.g. they also include templates and other categories, which are likely not written by Sartre or Tolkien).
If the plan is to change the way categories are used in Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia wikis, I'd say this is a very different goal, but should be discussed on those wikis.
List-articles often contain much more love and care than a Wikidata query result will for a while. I don't think that replacing an article like the list of books by David Foster Wallace [3] the List of US Presidents [4] with a single simple query is a short-term goal.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_Jean-Paul_Sartre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_J._R._R._Tolkien [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_by_David_Foster_Wallace [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_Presidents
On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 1:49:54 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
The point I wanted to make (following your example), is that the Wikidata Query "All novels by Douglas Adams" is equivalent to the item "Category:Novels by Douglas Adams" [1]. In other cases there will be even 3 items representing the same information: the wd query, the category item, and a "list of..." item. So I'm just wondering if this complexity is really needed for structural/technical reasons.
Maybe there is an easier way instead of linking to the wd query with a "category's main query" property?
Cheers, Micru
[1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8687492
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote: > I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard: > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_... > > It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between a list, > a category, and a query? Not much, really. > > I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the same as > the WDQ > http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995 > > Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the > development notes don't state if this is the intended path > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries > > Any thoughts about it?
I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately.
The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work:
- someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg
"everything that has author = Douglas Adams")
- the result of the query is a list of items matching the query
- the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it
in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article "List of works by Douglas Adams" would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata)
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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-- undefined
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Denny, sorry for the confusion, it is a complex topic, or it could also be that I am terribly bad at explaining :) Based on that item page I have made a mock-up which perhaps makes things easier: http://i.imgur.com/1dSfrqx.png
The reasoning for this being: 1) there is a well-defined set of queries that are equivalent to categories/lists, so there is no need to have independent query pages 2) if a wikipedia wants to include query results on a page, it is quite probable that the query already exists as a list/category 3) and if it doesn't then it will be *very* specific to that language wikipedia. In that case there is no need to define a query page on wikidata, but on the wikipedia page itself as an inclusion syntax command or another similar module
You are right that it might be a bit preliminary, as there are not even simple queries yet, but since this kind of decisions might have an impact on later design, I think it is worth start presenting the concepts/options now. Besides, ideas and a common understanding take time to develop, and the RFC was started, so I thought it was worth giving it some attention.
Cheers, Micru
On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 12:18 AM, Denny Vrandečić vrandecic@gmail.comwrote:
Since I am obviously bad at guessing what you mean, can you please explicate what you mean with "replicate that functionality on Wikidata"?
Sorry, I am too dense to understand it.
What do you want to happen, explicitly?
I go to http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6573995 - how should it be different from what it displays today?
Do you want the item pages to have the feature to directly embed query results, instead of having a one-click distance to the actual query page and its results?
Or is there more to it?
On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 3:10:44 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not saying that the results yielded by "Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre" or "Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien" are or should be the same as the result yielded by a corresponding Wikidata query, but the concepts they represent, they are the same. Ditto for lists. (As a further clarification, I didn't mention anything about changing Wikipedia categories or Wikipedia lists either.)
My question was regarding the functionality of WD items associated with Wikipedia categories and Wikipedia lists. Conceptually those items represent (or can represent) queries. WDQ, the tool by Magnus, already can interpret certain statements as queries [1]. Would it make sense to replicate that functionality on Wikidata?
Cheers, Micru
[1] http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 11:16 PM, Denny Vrandečić vrandecic@gmail.comwrote:
But that's simply not the case. The Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre [1] or Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien [2} neither are a complete list of books by those authors (e.g. Sartre's fictional books are missing, Tolkien's non-fictional *and* Middle earth books are missing), nor are they only including books by Tolkien (e.g. they also include templates and other categories, which are likely not written by Sartre or Tolkien).
If the plan is to change the way categories are used in Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia wikis, I'd say this is a very different goal, but should be discussed on those wikis.
List-articles often contain much more love and care than a Wikidata query result will for a while. I don't think that replacing an article like the list of books by David Foster Wallace [3] the List of US Presidents [4] with a single simple query is a short-term goal.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_Jean-Paul_Sartre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_J._R._R._Tolkien [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_by_David_Foster_Wallace [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_Presidents
On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 1:49:54 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
The point I wanted to make (following your example), is that the Wikidata Query "All novels by Douglas Adams" is equivalent to the item "Category:Novels by Douglas Adams" [1]. In other cases there will be even 3 items representing the same information: the wd query, the category item, and a "list of..." item. So I'm just wondering if this complexity is really needed for structural/technical reasons.
Maybe there is an easier way instead of linking to the wd query with a "category's main query" property?
Cheers, Micru
[1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8687492
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_...
It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between
a list,
a category, and a query? Not much, really.
I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the
same as
the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries
Any thoughts about it?
I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately.
The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work:
- someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg
"everything that has author = Douglas Adams")
- the result of the query is a list of items matching the query
- the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it
in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article "List of works by Douglas Adams" would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata)
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
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Micru,
thank you for the explanation. I understand better now what you mean.
I still disagree - let me explain why. I think that trying to express a query definition into a single statement is very hard. Having a specific Query namespace allows us to create a completely new UI for them, allows us to use a different data model for Queries than for items, and allows us to treat Query pages very different (e.g. for caching) than, e.g. item pages.
For example, the different data model would allow us to restrict the number of queries on a page. If they were just a statement, what would stop a contributor from creating several such statements on one page? What happens when someone removes the "same as query" statement? What happens if someone adds it to the page for USA (e.g. "same as query" "instance of"->"country", "continent"->"North America", "population"->>300M)? Would this page suddenly be treated differently? Also, you already show in your mock up that the "same as query" statement requires plenty of special code (e.g. for the different visualizations, etc.)
One option would be to have them as item pages, but then treat them continuously different. This would mean more and more exceptions and special casing in the code. I think that Queries and Items are sufficiently different to deserve their own treatment. In my personal opinion, this is provides sufficient reasons for Query pages and Item pages being distinct.
What would be the advantage of having Queries being expressed in the Items? Less entities? Less confusion about what these "list of"- and "category"-items mean? Both reasons I don't find sufficiently enticing to change my opinion on this.
Cheers, Denny
On Fri Mar 07 2014 at 5:00:19 AM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
Denny, sorry for the confusion, it is a complex topic, or it could also be that I am terribly bad at explaining :) Based on that item page I have made a mock-up which perhaps makes things easier: http://i.imgur.com/1dSfrqx.png
The reasoning for this being:
- there is a well-defined set of queries that are equivalent to
categories/lists, so there is no need to have independent query pages 2) if a wikipedia wants to include query results on a page, it is quite probable that the query already exists as a list/category 3) and if it doesn't then it will be *very* specific to that language wikipedia. In that case there is no need to define a query page on wikidata, but on the wikipedia page itself as an inclusion syntax command or another similar module
You are right that it might be a bit preliminary, as there are not even simple queries yet, but since this kind of decisions might have an impact on later design, I think it is worth start presenting the concepts/options now. Besides, ideas and a common understanding take time to develop, and the RFC was started, so I thought it was worth giving it some attention.
Cheers, Micru
On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 12:18 AM, Denny Vrandečić vrandecic@gmail.comwrote:
Since I am obviously bad at guessing what you mean, can you please explicate what you mean with "replicate that functionality on Wikidata"?
Sorry, I am too dense to understand it.
What do you want to happen, explicitly?
I go to http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6573995 - how should it be different from what it displays today?
Do you want the item pages to have the feature to directly embed query results, instead of having a one-click distance to the actual query page and its results?
Or is there more to it?
On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 3:10:44 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not saying that the results yielded by "Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre" or "Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien" are or should be the same as the result yielded by a corresponding Wikidata query, but the concepts they represent, they are the same. Ditto for lists. (As a further clarification, I didn't mention anything about changing Wikipedia categories or Wikipedia lists either.)
My question was regarding the functionality of WD items associated with Wikipedia categories and Wikipedia lists. Conceptually those items represent (or can represent) queries. WDQ, the tool by Magnus, already can interpret certain statements as queries [1]. Would it make sense to replicate that functionality on Wikidata?
Cheers, Micru
[1] http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 11:16 PM, Denny Vrandečić vrandecic@gmail.comwrote:
But that's simply not the case. The Category:Books by Jean-Paul Sartre [1] or Category:Books by J.R.R. Tolkien [2} neither are a complete list of books by those authors (e.g. Sartre's fictional books are missing, Tolkien's non-fictional *and* Middle earth books are missing), nor are they only including books by Tolkien (e.g. they also include templates and other categories, which are likely not written by Sartre or Tolkien).
If the plan is to change the way categories are used in Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia wikis, I'd say this is a very different goal, but should be discussed on those wikis.
List-articles often contain much more love and care than a Wikidata query result will for a while. I don't think that replacing an article like the list of books by David Foster Wallace [3] the List of US Presidents [4] with a single simple query is a short-term goal.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_Jean-Paul_Sartre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_J._R._R._Tolkien [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_by_David_Foster_Wallace [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_Presidents
On Thu Mar 06 2014 at 1:49:54 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
The point I wanted to make (following your example), is that the Wikidata Query "All novels by Douglas Adams" is equivalent to the item "Category:Novels by Douglas Adams" [1]. In other cases there will be even 3 items representing the same information: the wd query, the category item, and a "list of..." item. So I'm just wondering if this complexity is really needed for structural/technical reasons.
Maybe there is an easier way instead of linking to the wd query with a "category's main query" property?
Cheers, Micru
[1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8687492
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote: > I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard: > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_... > > It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between a list, > a category, and a query? Not much, really. > > I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the same as > the WDQ > http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995 > > Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the > development notes don't state if this is the intended path > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries > > Any thoughts about it?
I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately.
The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work:
- someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg
"everything that has author = Douglas Adams")
- the result of the query is a list of items matching the query
- the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it
in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article "List of works by Douglas Adams" would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata)
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 6:37 PM, Denny Vrandečić vrandecic@gmail.com wrote:
I still disagree - let me explain why. I think that trying to express a query definition into a single statement is very hard. Having a specific Query namespace allows us to create a completely new UI for them, allows us to use a different data model for Queries than for items, and allows us to treat Query pages very different (e.g. for caching) than, e.g. item pages.
Maybe I'm wrong, but "to create a completely new UI for [queries]" in my head translates as "more barriers for users to understand and navigate Wikidata". The query doesn't need to be a single statement, but a single property for queries (I called it "same as query" but it could be named differently). You should be able to combine two statements of such property, or more, to create a complex query. What I think it also matters is to reuse the concepts the users are familiar with as much as possible.
For example, the different data model would allow us to restrict the number of queries on a page. If they were just a statement, what would stop a contributor from creating several such statements on one page?
On the mockup I intended to represent that the property "same as query" can have several statements, but they combine into a single query.
What happens when someone removes the "same as query" statement?
Same as now happens with other statements transcluded into wikipedia pages, when somebody notices the deletion, it gets restored.
What happens if someone adds it to the page for USA (e.g. "same as query" "instance of"->"country", "continent"->"North America", "population"->>300M)?
It will get corrected, it is a wiki, right? :)
Would this page suddenly be treated differently?
Not necessarily.
Also, you already show in your mock up that the "same as query" statement requires plenty of special code (e.g. for the different visualizations, etc.)
Same requirements as having queries as independent pages.
One option would be to have them as item pages, but then treat them continuously different. This would mean more and more exceptions and special casing in the code. I think that Queries and Items are sufficiently different to deserve their own treatment. In my personal opinion, this is provides sufficient reasons for Query pages and Item pages being distinct.
No need for different treatment, or exceptions. Just a property that acts as a query descriptor with as many modifiers as needed.
What would be the advantage of having Queries being expressed in the Items? Less entities?
Yes!
Less confusion about what these "list of"- and "category"-items mean?
Yes!
Both reasons I don't find sufficiently enticing to change my opinion on this.
And better navigation, and more simplicity to create a query, and no need of creating artificial divisions between pages that represent the same concept...
Cheers, Micru
Gerard's RFC proposes that we add statements to 'Category' items and then Reasonator can use those statements to define a query and get a list of wikidata items which correspond to that Category.
The justification is mostly that 'Category' items don't really have a function in wikidata and this would give them one.
Personally I agree that Category items don't have a function in wikidata but my solution is to merge all Category items with the corresponding Main wikidata items. Both deal with different aspects of the same concept so they should be the same item - just as a wikipedia article and a wikivoyage article about the same thing link to the same item. The problem is that, at the moment, the software doesn't allow this.
I just created bug 62526https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=62526 for this.
Joe
On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 12:58 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 6:37 PM, Denny Vrandečić vrandecic@gmail.comwrote:
I still disagree - let me explain why. I think that trying to express a query definition into a single statement is very hard. Having a specific Query namespace allows us to create a completely new UI for them, allows us to use a different data model for Queries than for items, and allows us to treat Query pages very different (e.g. for caching) than, e.g. item pages.
Maybe I'm wrong, but "to create a completely new UI for [queries]" in my head translates as "more barriers for users to understand and navigate Wikidata". The query doesn't need to be a single statement, but a single property for queries (I called it "same as query" but it could be named differently). You should be able to combine two statements of such property, or more, to create a complex query. What I think it also matters is to reuse the concepts the users are familiar with as much as possible.
For example, the different data model would allow us to restrict the number of queries on a page. If they were just a statement, what would stop a contributor from creating several such statements on one page?
On the mockup I intended to represent that the property "same as query" can have several statements, but they combine into a single query.
What happens when someone removes the "same as query" statement?
Same as now happens with other statements transcluded into wikipedia pages, when somebody notices the deletion, it gets restored.
What happens if someone adds it to the page for USA (e.g. "same as query" "instance of"->"country", "continent"->"North America", "population"->>300M)?
It will get corrected, it is a wiki, right? :)
Would this page suddenly be treated differently?
Not necessarily.
Also, you already show in your mock up that the "same as query" statement requires plenty of special code (e.g. for the different visualizations, etc.)
Same requirements as having queries as independent pages.
One option would be to have them as item pages, but then treat them continuously different. This would mean more and more exceptions and special casing in the code. I think that Queries and Items are sufficiently different to deserve their own treatment. In my personal opinion, this is provides sufficient reasons for Query pages and Item pages being distinct.
No need for different treatment, or exceptions. Just a property that acts as a query descriptor with as many modifiers as needed.
What would be the advantage of having Queries being expressed in the Items? Less entities?
Yes!
Less confusion about what these "list of"- and "category"-items mean?
Yes!
Both reasons I don't find sufficiently enticing to change my opinion on this.
And better navigation, and more simplicity to create a query, and no need of creating artificial divisions between pages that represent the same concept...
Cheers, Micru
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Hoi, What the RFC is about is actually quite simple. It states that the content of most of the lists and categories can be expressed as queries. So when an item is an instance of "Wikimedia list article" or "Wikimedia category page" it can be complemented by an "is a list of" property. For examples, [1] and [2]
The confusion is about something that turned up as a result; Wikipedia has lists where they expect Wikidata to treat them NOT as a list. Take for instance the info about "Wikimedia Deutschland" [3]. It is an "instance of" "list of Wikimedia chapters". This is patent nonsense. Obviously it is a "Wikimedia chapter".
The discussion is about should we maintain that is a "list" in Wikipedia as a list and consequently apply the property "is a Wikimedia list article" or should we make it an instance of whatever is applicable. In this case the German chapter is an instance of "Wikimedia chapter". All that it takes is having appropriate statements that reflect the function of the item.
As far as I am concerned, we only need both the subclass and the list when at least one Wikipedia has both. Where the other "lists" should live? Probably on the lowest level ie not on the list.
NB I do not consider what Wikidata will bring in query functionality. It does not exist so I consider what can be done now with WDQ. It escapes me why we need a special namespace for queries.I am however eager to learn more. Thanks, GerardM
[1] http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=Q8860958 [2] http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=967762 [3] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8288 or with Reasonator .. http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=8288https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8288
On 6 March 2014 19:24, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de wrote:
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
I would like to make you aware of this RFC started by Gerard:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Define_lists_on_...
It is interesting because in the end, what is the difference between a
list,
a category, and a query? Not much, really.
I'm curious to know if the approach taken with queries will be the same
as
the WDQ http://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=6573995
Items like "List of..." or "Category:" would have some use, but the development notes don't state if this is the intended path https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Queries
Any thoughts about it?
I've been trying to understand the RfC 3 times now and still fail. So I can't answer your questions unfortunately.
The short and simplified version of how complex queries will work:
- someone defines a query on a page in a special query namespace (eg
"everything that has author = Douglas Adams")
- the result of the query is a list of items matching the query
- the Wikipedias can include the result of the query and visualize it
in certain ways on a page. (eg the wikitext of the article "List of works by Douglas Adams" would have a call to include the query result from Wikidata)
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l