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Fabrizio Carrai

7 Sep 2019 7 Sep '19

6:53 a.m.

Hello All, I'm writing asking your opinion Before some words on the context: I'm in the process of creating a Wikidata use case example to present and I have chosen a subject that I hope is of interest by many persons: sports. I want to present a query for the the athletes that are ACTIVE TODAY in a certain discipline, e.g. "soccer".

...

From the results of the query on the players I have had to

1) filter out the retired (I want only the active ones) 2) filter out the death persons The second is required since the date for the end of career is not always available, especially for athletes of the past. Here the point: I found athletes with the "Date of born" but with NO "date of death". So a query on the age show me athletes up to 149 years old. Since the oldest know person was 122, what about to set "date of death = unknown value" for all the persons resulting older such age ? Thanks in advance for you opinion -- *FabC*

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Federico Leva (Nemo)

7 Sep 7 Sep

7:14 a.m.

Fabrizio Carrai, 07/09/19 09:53:

...

Since the oldest know person was 122, what about to set "date of death = unknown value" for all the persons resulting older such age ?

It seems to me a sensible thing to do. It's good you asked because it's better to avoid the risk of conflicting mass changes. I wounder if we need a qualifier to allow identifying this as an inferred piece of data: do people sometimes state "unknown value" when someone is known to be dead, but we don't know when they did? I would place a date of death with a precision of a decade or century in such a case, but I've not checked what's the frequency of such qualifiers yet. Federico

Thomas Douillard

9:24 a.m.

We have already a qualifier for this kind of stuffs, I think : P887 <https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P887> this is a bit of a corner case because it’s not the value that is computed here but the existence of a value, but I think it will do. We just need an item for this, something such as « most likely dead because born long before » should do the trick. Le sam. 7 sept. 2019 à 09:14, Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki(a)gmail.com> a écrit :

...

Fabrizio Carrai, 07/09/19 09:53:

Since the oldest know person was 122, what about to set "date of death = unknown value" for all the persons resulting older such age ?

Denny Vrandečić

19 Sep 19 Sep

5 p.m.

"unknown value" was made for exactly that use case - a person that has died, but we don't know when. I would just add that on the "date of death" property. On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 2:25 AM Thomas Douillard <thomas.douillard(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Fabrizio Carrai, 07/09/19 09:53:

Since the oldest know person was 122, what about to set "date of death

unknown value" for all the persons resulting older such age ?

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Andy Mabbett

7:28 p.m.

On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 07:53, Fabrizio Carrai <fabrizio.carrai(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

I found athletes with the "Date of born" but with NO "date of death". So a query on the age show me athletes up to 149 years old. Since the oldest know person was 122, what about to set "date of death = unknown value" for all the persons resulting older such age ?

Fabrizio Carrai

8:13 p.m.

So, the question is if it would be fine and ethic to set the "Date of death" to "unknown" on the base of an old date of birth. And about the biography of living persons, I found this [1] Deceased persons, corporations, or groups of personsRecently dead or probably dead Anyone born within the past 115 years (on or after 19 September 1904) is covered by this policy unless a reliable source has confirmed their death. Generally, this policy does not apply to material concerning people who are confirmed dead by reliable sources. The only exception would be for people who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend for an indeterminate period beyond the date of death—six months, one year, two years at the outside. Such extensions would apply particularly to contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or a particularly gruesome crime. *Even absent confirmation of death, for the purposes of this policy anyone born more than 115 years ago is presumed dead* *unless* reliable sources confirm the person to have been living within the past two years. If the date of birth is unknown, editors should use reasonable judgement to infer—from dates of events noted in the article—if it is plausible that the person was born within the last 115 years and is therefore covered by this policy. This would support the set of "Date of death" to "unknown" on the base of the "Date of birth". It remains hard to verify typo errors, but we are doing our best to verify the data of the several wikiprojects. The property set would become effective if done in mass by a bot or similar. By the way, I would extend be period to 122 years [2] FabC [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Decea… [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people Il giorno gio 19 set 2019 alle ore 21:29 Andy Mabbett < andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk> ha scritto:

...

On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 07:53, Fabrizio Carrai <fabrizio.carrai(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, but check that the date of birth isn't a typo (i.e. 1875 instead of 1975; or 1894 instead of 1984). Showing a living person as being dead would be a serious breach of the BLP policy. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

-- *Fabrizio*

Andy Mabbett

10:18 p.m.

On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 21:13, Fabrizio Carrai <fabrizio.carrai(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

It remains hard to verify typo errors, but we are doing our best to verify the data of the several wikiprojects.

One could always look at the source(s) cited for the DoB.

...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Decea… [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people

Wikidata's policy (which contains text based on [1]) is: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Living_people The WMF's over-arching policy is: https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Resolution:Biographies_of_living_peop… -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

Olaf Simons

10:25 p.m.

On FactGrid we created two properties for this (maybe clever, maybe daft): P290 and P291 for estimates (or for knowledge) of an earliest and latest point in the life span. The necessity is here that we have loads of people with just a single data point like "studied in Jena in 1776" or "appeared on a list of voters in 1849". If that is all you know, you do actually know that the person is likely to have a birth date some 17 (or in the voters case at least 21) years before. If a person is only once mentioned as retired that stretches the P290 date to some 60 years before and so on - you qualify the estimate accordingly. I have no idea whether this is a good move on our site since we are not really that advanced in running the more intriguing SPARQL searches. Olaf

...

Fabrizio Carrai <fabrizio.carrai(a)gmail.com> hat am 19. September 2019 um 22:13 geschrieben: So, the question is if it would be fine and ethic to set the "Date of death" to "unknown" on the base of an old date of birth. And about the biography of living persons, I found this [1] Deceased persons, corporations, or groups of personsRecently dead or probably dead Anyone born within the past 115 years (on or after 19 September 1904) is covered by this policy unless a reliable source has confirmed their death. Generally, this policy does not apply to material concerning people who are confirmed dead by reliable sources. The only exception would be for people who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend for an indeterminate period beyond the date of death—six months, one year, two years at the outside. Such extensions would apply particularly to contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or a particularly gruesome crime. *Even absent confirmation of death, for the purposes of this policy anyone born more than 115 years ago is presumed dead* *unless* reliable sources confirm the person to have been living within the past two years. If the date of birth is unknown, editors should use reasonable judgement to infer—from dates of events noted in the article—if it is plausible that the person was born within the last 115 years and is therefore covered by this policy. This would support the set of "Date of death" to "unknown" on the base of the "Date of birth". It remains hard to verify typo errors, but we are doing our best to verify the data of the several wikiprojects. The property set would become effective if done in mass by a bot or similar. By the way, I would extend be period to 122 years [2] FabC [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Decea… [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people Il giorno gio 19 set 2019 alle ore 21:29 Andy Mabbett < andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk> ha scritto:

On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 07:53, Fabrizio Carrai <fabrizio.carrai(a)gmail.com> wrote:

-- *Fabrizio* _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Dr. Olaf Simons Forschungszentrum Gotha der Universität Erfurt Schloss Friedenstein, Pagenhaus 99867 Gotha Büro: +49-361-737-1722 Mobil: +49-179-5196880 Privat: Hauptmarkt 17b/ 99867 Gotha

Denny Vrandečić

10:33 p.m.

I think if we wanted to do this with a bot, we should go through the usual bot approval process, and discuss this on wiki? But in general, as said, adding unknown value to people who are very very sure to be dead sounds like a good idea ( https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q266668 ) On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 3:25 PM Olaf Simons <olaf.simons(a)pierre-marteau.com> wrote:

...

Fabrizio Carrai <fabrizio.carrai(a)gmail.com> hat am 19. September 2019

um 22:13 geschrieben:

death.

Generally, this policy does not apply to material concerning people who

are

confirmed dead by reliable sources. The only exception would be for

people

who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend for an indeterminate period beyond the date of death—six months, one year, two years at the outside. Such extensions would apply particularly to contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or a particularly gruesome crime. *Even absent confirmation of death, for the purposes of this policy anyone born more than 115 years

ago

is presumed dead* *unless* reliable sources confirm the person to have

been

living within the past two years. If the date of birth is unknown,

editors

should use reasonable judgement to infer—from dates of events noted in

the

article—if it is plausible that the person was born within the last 115 years and is therefore covered by this policy. This would support the set of "Date of death" to "unknown" on the base of the "Date of birth". It remains hard to verify typo errors, but we are doing our best to verify the data of the several wikiprojects. The property set would become effective if done in mass by a bot or

similar.

By the way, I would extend be period to 122 years [2] FabC [1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Decea…

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people Il giorno gio 19 set 2019 alle ore 21:29 Andy Mabbett < andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk> ha scritto: > On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 07:53, Fabrizio Carrai <

fabrizio.carrai(a)gmail.com>

wrote:

-- *Fabrizio* _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Dr. Olaf Simons Forschungszentrum Gotha der Universität Erfurt Schloss Friedenstein, Pagenhaus 99867 Gotha Büro: +49-361-737-1722 <+49%20361%207371722> Mobil: +49-179-5196880 <+49%20179%205196880> Privat: Hauptmarkt 17b/ 99867 Gotha _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Thomas Douillard

20 Sep 20 Sep

3:58 p.m.

We have also other properties on Wikidata to refine partial knowledge about the chronology of a life : https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1317 – floruit https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P2032 / https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P2031 — floruit begin and end that may overlap with https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1319 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1326 I found myself sometimes using a century precision date for somebody we don’t really have information about the date of death but know it lived on some century. Le ven. 20 sept. 2019 à 00:25, Olaf Simons <olaf.simons(a)pierre-marteau.com> a écrit :

...

Fabrizio Carrai <fabrizio.carrai(a)gmail.com> hat am 19. September 2019

um 22:13 geschrieben:

death.

Generally, this policy does not apply to material concerning people who

are

confirmed dead by reliable sources. The only exception would be for

people

ago

is presumed dead* *unless* reliable sources confirm the person to have

been

living within the past two years. If the date of birth is unknown,

editors

should use reasonable judgement to infer—from dates of events noted in

the

similar.

By the way, I would extend be period to 122 years [2] FabC [1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Decea…

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people Il giorno gio 19 set 2019 alle ore 21:29 Andy Mabbett < andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk> ha scritto: > On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 07:53, Fabrizio Carrai <

fabrizio.carrai(a)gmail.com>

wrote:

-- *Fabrizio* _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Dr. Olaf Simons Forschungszentrum Gotha der Universität Erfurt Schloss Friedenstein, Pagenhaus 99867 Gotha Büro: +49-361-737-1722 Mobil: +49-179-5196880 Privat: Hauptmarkt 17b/ 99867 Gotha _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Fabrizio Carrai

21 Sep 21 Sep

10:58 a.m.

The use of "unknown" for the date of death in "probably dead persons" is pretty diffused. According to this query <https://query.wikidata.org/#%23Persons%20presumibky%20dead%2C%20with%20date%20of%20birth%20but%20with%20an%20unknown%20date%20of%20death%0A%23%20Demonstrates%20filtering%20for%20%22unknown%20value%22%0ASELECT%20%3Fhuman%20%3FhumanLabel%20%3Fage%0AWHERE%0A%7B%0A%20%20%20%20%3Fhuman%20wdt%3AP31%20wd%3AQ5.%20%20%20%20%20%23%20Instance%20of%20humans%0A%20%20%20%20%3Fhuman%20wdt%3AP569%20%3Fbirth.%20%20%20%23%20get%20date%20of%20birth%20%0A%09%3Fhuman%20wdt%3AP570%20%3Fdeath.%20%20%20%23%20Filter%20for%20date%20of%20death%20set%20to%20%22unknown%22%0A%09FILTER%20isBLANK%28%3Fdeath%29.%0A%20%20%0A%20%20%20%20BIND%28FLOOR%28%28NOW%28%29%20-%20%3Fbirth%29%2F365.2425%29%20AS%20%3Fage%29.%20%0A%20%20%20%20FILTER%20%28%3Fage%3E%20122%29.%0A%20%20%0A%09SERVICE%20wikibase%3Alabel%20%7B%20bd%3AserviceParam%20wikibase%3Alanguage%20%22%5BAUTO_LANGUAGE%5D%2Cen%22%20%7D%0A%7D%0AORDER%20BY%20DESC%28%3Fage%29> it is used in 5861 humans. It would be interesting to know how many records would need to be updated (i.e. known date of birth, no date of death, age > 122 years), but I got a timeout. FabC Il giorno ven 20 set 2019 alle ore 17:59 Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard(a)gmail.com> ha scritto:

...

Fabrizio Carrai <fabrizio.carrai(a)gmail.com> hat am 19. September 2019

um 22:13 geschrieben:

death.

Generally, this policy does not apply to material concerning people who

are

confirmed dead by reliable sources. The only exception would be for

people

implications

for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a

possible

suicide or a particularly gruesome crime. *Even absent confirmation of death, for the purposes of this policy anyone born more than 115 years

ago

is presumed dead* *unless* reliable sources confirm the person to have

been

living within the past two years. If the date of birth is unknown,

editors

should use reasonable judgement to infer—from dates of events noted in

the

article—if it is plausible that the person was born within the last 115 years and is therefore covered by this policy. This would support the set of "Date of death" to "unknown" on the base

the "Date of birth". It remains hard to verify typo errors, but we are doing our best to verify the data of the several wikiprojects. The property set would become effective if done in mass by a bot or

similar.

By the way, I would extend be period to 122 years [2] FabC [1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Decea…

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people Il giorno gio 19 set 2019 alle ore 21:29 Andy Mabbett < andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk> ha scritto: > On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 07:53, Fabrizio Carrai <

fabrizio.carrai(a)gmail.com>

> wrote: > > > I found athletes with the "Date of born" but with NO "date of

death".

> > So a query on the age show me athletes up to 149 years old. > > Since the oldest know person was 122, what about to set "date of > > death = unknown value" for all the persons resulting older such age

-- *Fabrizio* _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

_______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

-- *Fabrizio*

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participants (6)

Andy Mabbett
Denny Vrandečić
Fabrizio Carrai
Federico Leva (Nemo)
Olaf Simons
Thomas Douillard