So I have been noticing that Twitter links often found in the External link section is starting to move to Wikidata on English Wikipedia. {{Twitter}} template is used much like with {{Authority control}}
Was there consensus or discussion about this before it's implementation? I am hoping there is also really good documentation so Wikipedia editors know how to create and/or edit this value.
Apologies if I didn't see this mentioned or addressed previously.
- Erika
Hi, I'm afraid this is the wrong place to talk about this.
We're incompetent on this list to talk about this as it's wikipedias and their community matter to discuss on how Wikidata datas are used. There is documentation indeed on how to modify Wikidata for contributors : https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Help:Contents especially the https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Tours are interesting on basis on how to edit Wikidata for beginners.
2016-10-09 13:34 GMT+02:00 Brill Lyle wp.brilllyle@gmail.com:
So I have been noticing that Twitter links often found in the External link section is starting to move to Wikidata on English Wikipedia. {{Twitter}} template is used much like with {{Authority control}}
Was there consensus or discussion about this before it's implementation? I am hoping there is also really good documentation so Wikipedia editors know how to create and/or edit this value.
Apologies if I didn't see this mentioned or addressed previously.
- Erika
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
This made me laugh. Thank you. It is a rainy Sunday and this brightened it up a bit.
How on EARTH could this be the wrong place to talk about this? I am still laughing.
Anyway, I would be happy to generate something for Wikipedia editors like I did for Authority Control.
I suspect there will be many more of these datasets moved to Wikidata.
I plan on doing at least one lightning talk on these at upcoming editathons and/or WikiWednesdays. I think in addition to training folks on Wikipedia editing it is becoming very clear we need to do some basic Wikidata editing that dovetails with these items.
Best,
- Erika
On Oct 9, 2016, at 7:54 AM, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, I'm afraid this is the wrong place to talk about this.
We're incompetent on this list to talk about this as it's wikipedias and their community matter to discuss on how Wikidata datas are used. There is documentation indeed on how to modify Wikidata for contributors : https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Help:Contents especially the https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Tours are interesting on basis on how to edit Wikidata for beginners.
2016-10-09 13:34 GMT+02:00 Brill Lyle wp.brilllyle@gmail.com:
So I have been noticing that Twitter links often found in the External link section is starting to move to Wikidata on English Wikipedia. {{Twitter}} template is used much like with {{Authority control}}
Was there consensus or discussion about this before it's implementation? I am hoping there is also really good documentation so Wikipedia editors know how to create and/or edit this value.
Apologies if I didn't see this mentioned or addressed previously.
- Erika
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 5:25 PM, Brill Lyle wp.brilllyle@gmail.com wrote:
How on EARTH could this be the wrong place to talk about this? I am still laughing.
Because it's a political/social decision to make, not technical. Wikidata can only provide solutions, but the decision is with each Wikipedia, not Wikidata.
Egon
I guess we disagree. I don't see this issue as being particularly political or social. That seems like a very odd distinction to make.
Because in that approach, how would I have the technical information to know, if I was editing Wikipedia, how to add or update this information?
I don't get this distinction -- or the lack of communication -- about these types of changes. Changes which are having a pretty significant impact on Wikipedia editing. Without discussion that I have seen.
If this "Wikidata can only provide solutions" approach (as you describe it) is taken I think that does a HUGE disservice to to intersectionality and potential outreach and future growth of Wikidata as both a platform and as a semantic backbone of Wikipedia, English or otherwise.
I totally disagree with this, as is probably evident. I am actually really sad to read this.
So I guess if Wikidata is seen as purely technical there is no place for end-user issues. Which is what I see this as? That also doesn't really seem logical.
- Erika
*Erika Herzog* Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrillLyle*
On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 12:08 PM, Egon Willighagen < egon.willighagen@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 5:25 PM, Brill Lyle wp.brilllyle@gmail.com wrote:
How on EARTH could this be the wrong place to talk about this? I am still laughing.
Because it's a political/social decision to make, not technical. Wikidata can only provide solutions, but the decision is with each Wikipedia, not Wikidata.
Egon
-- E.L. Willighagen Department of Bioinformatics - BiGCaT Maastricht University (http://www.bigcat.unimaas.nl/) Homepage: http://egonw.github.com/ LinkedIn: http://se.linkedin.com/in/egonw Blog: http://chem-bla-ics.blogspot.com/ PubList: http://www.citeulike.org/user/egonw/tag/papers ORCID: 0000-0001-7542-0286 ImpactStory: https://impactstory.org/u/egonwillighagen
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
So if this is not the place to discuss these issues, should I be going to the Wikipedia-l with them? Issues that directly relate to Wikidata?
I would really appreciate some clarification on this.
It seems that there are a lot of assumptions here that I don't understand or know about. I know everyone here is very smart. Maybe I am not qualified to be on this list because I am not an academic or a scientist or a computer programmer, and there is no place or desire to have someone not in those categories participating?
I create and edit Wikidata items. I have a library degree. Authority control and citations are my focus when editing Wikipedia/Wikidata. Yet I don't seem to fit in with the overarching schema here.
*Erika Herzog* Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrillLyle*
On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 12:08 PM, Egon Willighagen < egon.willighagen@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 5:25 PM, Brill Lyle wp.brilllyle@gmail.com wrote:
How on EARTH could this be the wrong place to talk about this? I am still laughing.
Because it's a political/social decision to make, not technical. Wikidata can only provide solutions, but the decision is with each Wikipedia, not Wikidata.
Egon
-- E.L. Willighagen Department of Bioinformatics - BiGCaT Maastricht University (http://www.bigcat.unimaas.nl/) Homepage: http://egonw.github.com/ LinkedIn: http://se.linkedin.com/in/egonw Blog: http://chem-bla-ics.blogspot.com/ PubList: http://www.citeulike.org/user/egonw/tag/papers ORCID: 0000-0001-7542-0286 ImpactStory: https://impactstory.org/u/egonwillighagen
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
On 09.10.2016 19:46, Brill Lyle wrote:
So if this is not the place to discuss these issues, should I be going to the Wikipedia-l with them? Issues that directly relate to Wikidata?
I would really appreciate some clarification on this.
Hi Erika,
I guess the starting point would be to contact on-wiki (e.g. on the English Wikipedia) the user who is removing the templates (or the bot owner) and ask for the venue where the issue was discussed. If such venue exists, I am pretty sure it is on Wikipedia. If this has not been discussed, it probably needs to be stopped.
Cheers Yaroslav
Thanks Yaroslav.
I can see a brief discussion that seems to have happened month ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Twitter
But the BLP that I edit have only started to be changed in the last couple of weeks.
I still think this is very disingenuous to expect no responsibility or communication by and with Wikidata. Wikidata is becoming the host repository for this information now. Doesn't that "ownership" imply some sort of responsibility, interactively, with its sister projects. Especially the largest one, English Wikipedia?
I have actually come over to the side of being convinced that Authority Control and datasets like Twitter are serviced well by Wikidata -- and support this process. But documentation and communication needs to be vastly improved so that both Wikidatans and Wikipedians know how the data is added, updated, etc.
- Erika
*Erika Herzog* Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrillLyle*
On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:
On 09.10.2016 19:46, Brill Lyle wrote:
So if this is not the place to discuss these issues, should I be going to the Wikipedia-l with them? Issues that directly relate to Wikidata?
I would really appreciate some clarification on this.
Hi Erika,
I guess the starting point would be to contact on-wiki (e.g. on the English Wikipedia) the user who is removing the templates (or the bot owner) and ask for the venue where the issue was discussed. If such venue exists, I am pretty sure it is on Wikipedia. If this has not been discussed, it probably needs to be stopped.
Cheers Yaroslav
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
I found the bot and the editors who are doing the change.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JJMC89_bot
I still think Wikidata needs to be part of this discussion, especially if more of these items push to Wikidata.
On 9 October 2016 at 12:34, Brill Lyle wp.brilllyle@gmail.com wrote:
So I have been noticing that Twitter links often found in the External link section is starting to move to Wikidata on English Wikipedia. {{Twitter}} template is used much like with {{Authority control}}
Was there consensus or discussion about this before it's implementation? I am hoping there is also really good documentation so Wikipedia editors know how to create and/or edit this value.
You have posted about this on at least three different venues on en.Wikipedia; I answered your original question at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:JJMC89#Twitter_--.3E_Wikidata
and your subsequent comment at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Twitter#Wikidata
Apologies if I didn't see this mentioned or addressed previously
Despite this apology, in each of the three conversations, started afterwards, you said you were "very concerned about the lack of transparency and notification". My first response, linked above, includes a link to the notification, which was in place for several weeks before the edits were made, and which invited objections, but attracted none.
Andy: Did it occur to you that maybe there were no objections because there was no visibility to the request?
Quite frankly, I am amenable to these changes and support pushing granulated data like this and Authority Control to Wikidata. I am. I recognize the value of these efforts, and how great it will be for Wikidata and Wikipedia.
However, without proper user-friendly documentation -- not just a template page update that unless you are familiar with templates it will be unintelligible, but a proper set of documentation for newbies and experienced editor alike -- and just as importantly, without communicating this change effectively to the larger spectrum of Wikipedia and Wikidata editors, this approach comes off as a rogue effort.
Of concern: I see a list of Bot changes you are initiating here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JJMC89_bot/Wikidata_external_link_templat... It is NOT a trivial amount of items, and will have an impact on both Wikipedia and Wikidata.
I am doing nothing wrong here by asking these questions. How you choose to respond and take the questions is your problem.
I don't want to take up any further bandwith on Wikidata's mailing list, as it has been explained to me that this is a Wikipedia project issue, not a Wikidata issue. Although the data will now reside and live on Wikidata's project pages.
- Erika
*Erika Herzog* Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrillLyle*
On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:57 AM, Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:
On 9 October 2016 at 12:34, Brill Lyle wp.brilllyle@gmail.com wrote:
So I have been noticing that Twitter links often found in the External
link section is starting to move to Wikidata on English Wikipedia. {{Twitter}} template is used much like with {{Authority control}}
Was there consensus or discussion about this before it's implementation?
I am hoping there is also really good documentation so Wikipedia editors know how to create and/or edit this value.
You have posted about this on at least three different venues on en.Wikipedia; I answered your original question at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:JJMC89#Twitter_--.3E_Wikidata
and your subsequent comment at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Twitter#Wikidata
Apologies if I didn't see this mentioned or addressed previously
Despite this apology, in each of the three conversations, started afterwards, you said you were "very concerned about the lack of transparency and notification". My first response, linked above, includes a link to the notification, which was in place for several weeks before the edits were made, and which invited objections, but attracted none.
-- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
On 10 October 2016 at 14:05, Brill Lyle wp.brilllyle@gmail.com wrote:
Andy: Did it occur to you that maybe there were no objections because there was no visibility to the request?
Yes; but given the number of well-watched pages on which it was discussed, I don't think that's a plausible proposition.
[...]
this approach comes off as a rogue effort.
"Rogue effort". that's a new one.
I am doing nothing wrong here by asking these questions.
Indeed not. But starting the same conversation, and continuing it, in multiple venues (rather than once, with brief pointers), as you have also done, is generally frowned upon.
How you choose to respond and take the questions is your problem.
Other than the above, I have no issue with your /questions/ As I've stated, I take issue with your false allegations.
I don't want to take up any further bandwith on Wikidata's mailing list
[...]
Then let's continue this, if we must, on Wikipedia.