I look for this: "Elevation in metres above 'mean high water spring' level."
Which means the geographic hight above MHWS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_high_water_spring https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springtide#Mittleres_Springhochwasser
I did find only this: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6452016 which is 'above MSL': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metres_above_sea_level https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6he_%C3%BCber_dem_Meeresspiegel
Bests, Markus
Am 27.09.2016 um 19:10 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
I look for this: "Elevation in metres above 'mean high water spring' level."
Which means the geographic hight above MHWS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_high_water_spring
By clicking on "Wikidata Item" in the sidebar of that page, I get to https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6803625 ("highest level that spring tides reach on average over a period of time")
Is that what you need?
Hallo Daniel,
nein, ich suche nicht einen WP-Artikel über MHWS, (diesen habe ich nur verlinkt als Erklärung)
sondern eine Einheit/unit, um MHWS als Bezugshorizont für geografische Höhen zu beschreiben.
MHWS wird verwendet, um Brückendurchfahrtshöhen über Wasser zu definieren, sowie für die geografische Höhe von Leuchtfeuern.
Mit herzlichem Gruss, Markus
Am 27.09.2016 um 19:28 schrieb Daniel Kinzler:
Am 27.09.2016 um 19:10 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
I look for this: "Elevation in metres above 'mean high water spring' level."
Which means the geographic hight above MHWS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_high_water_spring
By clicking on "Wikidata Item" in the sidebar of that page, I get to https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6803625 ("highest level that spring tides reach on average over a period of time")
Is that what you need?
So you want to e.g. give the height of a bridge above the "mean high water spring" level of the river it crosses?
You wouldn't use a unit for that, but a qualifier. The unit would be meter (or feet or whatever).
The "elevation" property we have (P2044) is defined to refer to NN, so it's no good for your purpose. To model what you want nicely, you would need a more general "elevation" property, and a "reference level" property to use as a qualifier. Then you could express something like "elevation: 28.3m; reference-level: Q6803625".
I'm sure there are other options, but I see no good option that would be possible with the properties I know.
Anyway, this is really a modelling question, and it can't really be solved with units.
Am 27.09.2016 um 20:26 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
Hallo Daniel,
nein, ich suche nicht einen WP-Artikel über MHWS, (diesen habe ich nur verlinkt als Erklärung)
sondern eine Einheit/unit, um MHWS als Bezugshorizont für geografische Höhen zu beschreiben.
MHWS wird verwendet, um Brückendurchfahrtshöhen über Wasser zu definieren, sowie für die geografische Höhe von Leuchtfeuern.
Mit herzlichem Gruss, Markus
Am 27.09.2016 um 19:28 schrieb Daniel Kinzler:
Am 27.09.2016 um 19:10 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
I look for this: "Elevation in metres above 'mean high water spring' level."
Which means the geographic hight above MHWS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_high_water_spring
By clicking on "Wikidata Item" in the sidebar of that page, I get to https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6803625 ("highest level that spring tides reach on average over a period of time")
Is that what you need?
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Hi Daniel,
So you want to e.g. give the height of a bridge above the "mean high water spring" level of the river it crosses?
Yes.
use a qualifier. The unit would be meter
Yes.
The "elevation" property we have (P2044) is defined to refer to NN
It is not a good idea, to define 'elevation' like it is "defined" in P2044: there are hundreds of reference-levels (not only NN)...
NN was used from 1879 to 1992 in Germany.
Now in Germany we use NHN !
In other countries there are different reference levels changing in different epoches ...
you would need a more general "elevation" property, and a "reference level" property to use as a qualifier.
Yes, every elevation needs a reference level. (without a elevation measurement is not usable)
Then you could express something like "elevation: 28.3m;
In WD there is a confusion between altitude and elevation? (may be in American and British English? or geographic and aviation and astronomy?)
reference-level: Q6803625".
_reference-level_ could be: 'NN' 'NHN' 'LAT' 'MSL' 'MHWS' and a lot of others...
But this is a combination of unit and reference-level: 'm ü.M.'
We should not mix or confound this modellings...
What will be the WD-way? (you should discuss this with a geodetic specialist...!)
Additionally we need an expression for 'accuracy' and 'source': If the hight unit is 'meter' and the source value is in 'feet', the new value could have a lot more/less digits than the source, but no better/worse accuracy...
Bests, Markus
Am 27.09.2016 um 20:26 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
Hallo Daniel,
nein, ich suche nicht einen WP-Artikel über MHWS, (diesen habe ich nur verlinkt als Erklärung)
sondern eine Einheit/unit, um MHWS als Bezugshorizont für geografische Höhen zu beschreiben.
MHWS wird verwendet, um Brückendurchfahrtshöhen über Wasser zu definieren, sowie für die geografische Höhe von Leuchtfeuern.
Mit herzlichem Gruss, Markus
Am 27.09.2016 um 19:28 schrieb Daniel Kinzler:
Am 27.09.2016 um 19:10 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
I look for this: "Elevation in metres above 'mean high water spring' level."
Which means the geographic hight above MHWS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_high_water_spring
By clicking on "Wikidata Item" in the sidebar of that page, I get to https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6803625 ("highest level that spring tides reach on average over a period of time")
Is that what you need?
Hi Daniel, Markus and Wikidatans,
Thanks for your interesting "modeling elevation with Wikidata" conversation.
Daniel, in a related vein and conceptually, how would you model elevation change over time (e.g. in a Google Street View/Maps/Earth with TIME SLIDER, conceptually, for example) with Wikidata, building on the example you've already shared?
For example if one wanted to use Wikidata to model the 9 levels or 46 sublevels of Troy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy) and when they were excavated and how (so a time horizon with a place horizon), how would one do so?
(On behalf of CC WUaS I'd like to explore facilitating doing this eventually in a realistic virtual earth, something like Google Street View/Maps/Earth with time slider with OPEN SIMULATOR, conceptually, and as a World Univ & Sch "classroom" and as a way, for example, for archaeologists and related scientists to add each of their own videos and photographic data, say, from all of their digs in 1910 of level X and contrast this with each of all of their own videos from level Y in 1958 (if digs were happening in these years) - https://radalma.wikispaces.com/file/view/troy-the-nine-periods-of-troy-cross... (e.g. https://radalma.wikispaces.com/Timeline+of+Troy) - with great STEM precision of time and place elevation, - and also in ANY language, so involving Wiktionary and translation?)
Would there be a wikidata Q-item for all 46 sub levels, for example?
Thank you.
Bests, Scott
On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Markus Bärlocher < markus.baerlocher@lau-net.de> wrote:
Hi Daniel,
So you want to e.g. give the height of a bridge above the "mean high
water
spring" level of the river it crosses?
Yes.
use a qualifier. The unit would be meter
Yes.
The "elevation" property we have (P2044) is defined to refer to NN
It is not a good idea, to define 'elevation' like it is "defined" in P2044: there are hundreds of reference-levels (not only NN)...
NN was used from 1879 to 1992 in Germany.
Now in Germany we use NHN !
In other countries there are different reference levels changing in different epoches ...
you would need a more general "elevation" property, and a "reference level" property to use as a qualifier.
Yes, every elevation needs a reference level. (without a elevation measurement is not usable)
Then you could express something like "elevation: 28.3m;
In WD there is a confusion between altitude and elevation? (may be in American and British English? or geographic and aviation and astronomy?)
reference-level: Q6803625".
_reference-level_ could be: 'NN' 'NHN' 'LAT' 'MSL' 'MHWS' and a lot of others...
But this is a combination of unit and reference-level: 'm ü.M.'
We should not mix or confound this modellings...
What will be the WD-way? (you should discuss this with a geodetic specialist...!)
Additionally we need an expression for 'accuracy' and 'source': If the hight unit is 'meter' and the source value is in 'feet', the new value could have a lot more/less digits than the source, but no better/worse accuracy...
Bests, Markus
Am 27.09.2016 um 20:26 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
Hallo Daniel,
nein, ich suche nicht einen WP-Artikel über MHWS, (diesen habe ich nur verlinkt als Erklärung)
sondern eine Einheit/unit, um MHWS als Bezugshorizont für geografische Höhen zu beschreiben.
MHWS wird verwendet, um Brückendurchfahrtshöhen über Wasser zu definieren, sowie für die geografische Höhe von Leuchtfeuern.
Mit herzlichem Gruss, Markus
Am 27.09.2016 um 19:28 schrieb Daniel Kinzler:
Am 27.09.2016 um 19:10 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
I look for this: "Elevation in metres above 'mean high water spring' level."
Which means the geographic hight above MHWS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_high_water_spring
By clicking on "Wikidata Item" in the sidebar of that page, I get to https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6803625 ("highest level that spring
tides reach
on average over a period of time")
Is that what you need?
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Am 27.09.2016 um 23:14 schrieb Info WorldUniversity:
Hi Daniel, Markus and Wikidatans,
Thanks for your interesting "modeling elevation with Wikidata" conversation.
Daniel, in a related vein and conceptually, how would you model elevation change over time (e.g. in a Google Street View/Maps/Earth with TIME SLIDER, conceptually, for example) with Wikidata, building on the example you've already shared?
You would use the "point in time" qualifier. We use this a lot with population data, see for instance https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q64#P1082.
Would there be a wikidata Q-item for all 46 sub levels, for example?
That's a question of desirable modelling granularity. I would suppose that for troy, we would have one item per sub-level, since it's such a famous site. But we would probably not have every sub-level of every archeological excavation. This is always a question of balance, and always a matter of debate.
Am 27.09.2016 um 22:21 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
The "elevation" property we have (P2044) is defined to refer to NN
It is not a good idea, to define 'elevation' like it is "defined" in P2044: there are hundreds of reference-levels (not only NN)...
Yes, I agree. But that's how it currently is. You can start a discussion about it on the property's talk page, or on the project chat page, or some other appropriate place.
Then you could express something like "elevation: 28.3m;
In WD there is a confusion between altitude and elevation? (may be in American and British English? or geographic and aviation and astronomy?)
As far as I know, WD uses "altitude" only as an alias of "elevation". I'm not a native speaker of English, but as far as I know, you can use "altitude" as well as "elevation" when describing a geographical point. The definitions of the corresponding items (Q190200 and Q2633778) reflect that, and so do the definitions in Merriam Webster. However, "elevation" seems to be used only for fixed places - a plane has altitude, not elevation - so that's a reason not to merge the two items.
However, if I understood correctly, what you are looking for is actually not elevation, but "clearance" ("Lichte Höhe"): https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1823312. Interestingly, there is also Q2446632...
Oh, we actually do have a property for that! P2793 is the "distance between surface and bottom of a bridge deck". That's exactly what you need, no?
But this is a combination of unit and reference-level: 'm ü.M.'
We should not mix or confound this modellings...
What will be the WD-way? (you should discuss this with a geodetic specialist...!)
Indeed :) And a civil engineer. But for starters, maybe Aude has some thoughts on this.
Additionally we need an expression for 'accuracy' and 'source': If the hight unit is 'meter' and the source value is in 'feet', the new value could have a lot more/less digits than the source, but no better/worse accuracy...
Sources can be given for any statement. Accuracy can be qiven for any quantity value, just enter 32+-2m. If the source gives the number in feet, please enter it in feet in Wikidata, and leave the conversion to the software (we are just in the process of adding support for unit conversion)
HTH, Daniel
PS: I'm a software guy. I know how Wikibase and MediaWiki work, and I know the underlying data model of Wikidata quite well. But I do not know all the properties and conventions, and I may not be aware of the best place to discuss these things. So please don't rely on my opinion about modeling on Wikidata too much.
Hallo Daniel,
um Missverständnisse zu vermeiden antworte ich vorübergehend deutsch:
Ich weiss, dass Du hervorragender SW-Entwickler bist, aber vermutlich nicht der richtige Ansprechpartner für "geodätische Fragen" (ich leider auch nicht). Da es um grundlegende Modellierungsfragen geht - wer kann hier helfen?
Ich brauche ein System, um in WD geografische Höhen zu modellieren.
Eine geografische Höhenangabe besteht aus: 1. Zahl (127,53) 2. Einheit (Meter, feet) 3. Höhenreferenzebene (NN, NHN, LAT, MSL, MHWS, ...)
Wenn eine der drei Angaben fehlt, ist die Aussage unbrauchbar.
Sinnvoll wäre zusatzlich eine Angabe zu: 4. Genauigkeit
Verstehe ich Dich richtig? Du schlägst vor, die Genauigkeit hinter die Zahl zu schreiben? und beides in einen String zusammenzuführen? also 1., 2. und 4. in ein Feld zu packen?
Beispiel: 123,53±0,005m
Dann müsste man jede Zahl erst auseinanderdröseln um sie in einer Tabelle darstellen und numerisch sortieren zu können?
- - - -
WD uses "altitude" only as an alias of "elevation"
Seems not correct... Only native speaking professionals can clear this correctly :-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevation_(disambiguation) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevation
However, if I understood correctly, what you are looking for is actually not elevation, but "clearance" ("Lichte Höhe"):
"Lichte Höhe" = "vertical clearance" "Lichte Breite" = "horizontal clearance"
(both will need an exact definition concerning the shape of the hole in the building and the shape of the passing object)
Best regards, Markus
Am 28.09.2016 um 14:13 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
Da es um grundlegende Modellierungsfragen geht - wer kann hier helfen?
"Die Community"...
Ich brauche ein System, um in WD geografische Höhen zu modellieren.
Eine geografische Höhenangabe besteht aus:
- Zahl (127,53)
- Einheit (Meter, feet)
- Höhenreferenzebene (NN, NHN, LAT, MSL, MHWS, ...)
Wenn eine der drei Angaben fehlt, ist die Aussage unbrauchbar.
Die Referenzebene kann wie gersagt als Qualifier angegeben werden. Es wäre sinnvoll, die Property "Elevation over sea level" entsprechend umzudefinieren oder zu ersetzen. Eine andere Lösung fällt mir nicht ein. Es sei denn, es geht um "Lichte Höhe", dann kannst du P2793 benutzen. Du brauchst aber immernoch eine Property für "Reference level". Ich glaube, die gibt es noch nicht.
Sinnvoll wäre zusatzlich eine Angabe zu: 4. Genauigkeit
Verstehe ich Dich richtig? Du schlägst vor, die Genauigkeit hinter die Zahl zu schreiben? und beides in einen String zusammenzuführen? also 1., 2. und 4. in ein Feld zu packen?
Beispiel: 123,53±0,005m
Ja, genau so. Oder so ähnlich - bei der Eingabe muss die Einheit momentan noch separat ausgewählt werden.
Dann müsste man jede Zahl erst auseinanderdröseln um sie in einer Tabelle darstellen und numerisch sortieren zu können?
Nein, das ist ja kein Text-Feld. Wert, Genauigkeit, und Einheit werden separate gespeichert, dafür haben wir "data types." Details findest du hier: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikibase/DataModel/JSON#quantity und hier https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikibase/DataModel#Quantities.