Hey folks :)
People have been bugging me for a while now about this so I started a page to gather input.
If you are searching for a topic on a Wikipedia for example but it doesn't have an article about it then we can look at Wikidata and see if there is a matching item for that topic. If we have data about it on Wikidata then we can show some kind of placeholder. But how should this look like and work? I'd love your input at https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Article_placeholder_input Please keep in mind the important points at the beginning of that page.
Also: If someone comes up with a better name for this that'd be awesome.
<3
Cheers Lydia
The problem is that we don't really know what topic the user is looking for, we just know a term (the search string or page title). The easiest thin to do would be to show an automatic disambiguation page, listing items that have a matching label or alias. That page would show the description for each such item, and a link to the corresponding page on the local wiki, if there is one.
This sidesteps the question of how we might show a "summary" of some sort of a specific data item. If we want that, picking the appropriate infobox template would be nice, but I'm not sure how that could be done.
-- daniel
Am 29.12.2014 18:11, schrieb Lydia Pintscher:
Hey folks :)
People have been bugging me for a while now about this so I started a page to gather input.
If you are searching for a topic on a Wikipedia for example but it doesn't have an article about it then we can look at Wikidata and see if there is a matching item for that topic. If we have data about it on Wikidata then we can show some kind of placeholder. But how should this look like and work? I'd love your input at https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Article_placeholder_input Please keep in mind the important points at the beginning of that page.
Also: If someone comes up with a better name for this that'd be awesome.
<3
Cheers Lydia
Hoi, With all due respect. We have something that works already in Reasonator. It covers most if not all requirements that we can possibly think of. We have gained a lot of experience in that way.. Why not implement it and improve on it conform any potential additional requirements ? Thanks, GerardM
On 29 December 2014 at 19:11, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de wrote:
Hey folks :)
People have been bugging me for a while now about this so I started a page to gather input.
If you are searching for a topic on a Wikipedia for example but it doesn't have an article about it then we can look at Wikidata and see if there is a matching item for that topic. If we have data about it on Wikidata then we can show some kind of placeholder. But how should this look like and work? I'd love your input at https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Article_placeholder_input Please keep in mind the important points at the beginning of that page.
Also: If someone comes up with a better name for this that'd be awesome.
<3
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:39 PM, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinzler@wikimedia.de wrote:
The problem is that we don't really know what topic the user is looking for, we just know a term (the search string or page title). The easiest thin to do would be to show an automatic disambiguation page, listing items that have a matching label or alias. That page would show the description for each such item, and a link to the corresponding page on the local wiki, if there is one.
Yeah we need some kind of disambiguation. But even then we want to show the user more about each of those topics. We're talking mostly about small wikis that have no article coverage for a lot of topics. I'll add the disambiguation point to the wiki page. Let's keep discussion there if possible.
This sidesteps the question of how we might show a "summary" of some sort of a specific data item. If we want that, picking the appropriate infobox template would be nice, but I'm not sure how that could be done.
Well there could be a very generic infobox template for example. On a small Wikipedia that would already be a win.
Cheers Lydia
On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, With all due respect. We have something that works already in Reasonator. It covers most if not all requirements that we can possibly think of. We have gained a lot of experience in that way.. Why not implement it and improve on it conform any potential additional requirements ?
Reasonator is awesome and obviously one of the things to look at. But I'd like us to be open about if this is what we want and then build on top of. Maybe people want something completely different - maybe not. In either case it'll be more work than just taking what is there and putting it in production ;-)
Cheers Lydia
Hoi, Our aim is to "share in the sum of all knowledge". While building on top of what Reasonator offers makes sense, Reasonator works now.
So yes, do have a look at what it is missing and what could be improved but do not let that notion prevent us from sharing in the sum of all knowledge that is already available to us.
Reasonator works now and anything else will take a LONG time before it can be used. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 10:16, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de wrote:
On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, With all due respect. We have something that works already in
Reasonator. It
covers most if not all requirements that we can possibly think of. We
have
gained a lot of experience in that way.. Why not implement it and
improve on
it conform any potential additional requirements ?
Reasonator is awesome and obviously one of the things to look at. But I'd like us to be open about if this is what we want and then build on top of. Maybe people want something completely different - maybe not. In either case it'll be more work than just taking what is there and putting it in production ;-)
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Hi,
Wiadomość napisana przez Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com w dniu 30 gru 2014, o godz. 10:24:
Reasonator works now.
Yes, but the thing is that putting anything on production is not just including it there. The whole code needs to be reviewed and there are some limitations, especially with 3rd party libraries. Bootstrap is a no-go. There are code conventions, performance and compatibility issues (mediawiki has to support IE 8) and internationalisation. And tests.
Maybe some of these things are already there, but still the review would have to be done.
Michał
Hoi, They are mostly excuses. The software has been in use for a LONG time. It is known for its relevance for the same long time.. So the value of this need is diminished by the lack of attention in the past.
The point is that these excuses are very much in the way of us achieving our goal.. sharing in the sum of all knowledge. The knowledge in Wikidata is available knowledge to us so we do not have a valid excuse. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 11:38, Michał Łazowik mlazowik@me.com wrote:
Hi,
Wiadomość napisana przez Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com w
dniu 30 gru 2014, o godz. 10:24:
Reasonator works now.
Yes, but the thing is that putting anything on production is not just including it there. The whole code needs to be reviewed and there are some limitations, especially with 3rd party libraries. Bootstrap is a no-go. There are code conventions, performance and compatibility issues (mediawiki has to support IE 8) and internationalisation. And tests.
Maybe some of these things are already there, but still the review would have to be done.
Michał _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Hoi, You also forget that it HAS been in use on several Wikipedias in the past. So when that was no problem why is it a problem that can not be overcome now and for now? Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 12:15, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, They are mostly excuses. The software has been in use for a LONG time. It is known for its relevance for the same long time.. So the value of this need is diminished by the lack of attention in the past.
The point is that these excuses are very much in the way of us achieving our goal.. sharing in the sum of all knowledge. The knowledge in Wikidata is available knowledge to us so we do not have a valid excuse. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 11:38, Michał Łazowik mlazowik@me.com wrote:
Hi,
Wiadomość napisana przez Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com w
dniu 30 gru 2014, o godz. 10:24:
Reasonator works now.
Yes, but the thing is that putting anything on production is not just including it there. The whole code needs to be reviewed and there are some limitations, especially with 3rd party libraries. Bootstrap is a no-go. There are code conventions, performance and compatibility issues (mediawiki has to support IE 8) and internationalisation. And tests.
Maybe some of these things are already there, but still the review would have to be done.
Michał _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Hi Gerard, I like Reasonator a lot, but there is several advantages to an integrated solution : * We can reuse technologies of the mediawiki ecosystem, like for example a very important one : templates, that are already used an that a lot of wikimedians knows. It can be used to build template articles. I don't know if reasonator atm had a lot of contributions. It needs a github or something account and Javascript knowledge. * community is reluctant to use not in wiki tools for such needs, it's politically hard to push Reasonator integration into Wikidata fundamental templates, I can tell. * A solution based on prebuilt queries to select the appropriate template seems not so hard to implement only with Wikibase concepts, and deeply integrated to the mediawiki ecosystem, integrate Reasonator will probably eventually not result into such result.
And yes, Reasonator is usable right now. So it's cool that this feature is not implemented right now :) And reasonator can follow its own path.
2014-12-30 12:28 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, You also forget that it HAS been in use on several Wikipedias in the past. So when that was no problem why is it a problem that can not be overcome now and for now? Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 12:15, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, They are mostly excuses. The software has been in use for a LONG time. It is known for its relevance for the same long time.. So the value of this need is diminished by the lack of attention in the past.
The point is that these excuses are very much in the way of us achieving our goal.. sharing in the sum of all knowledge. The knowledge in Wikidata is available knowledge to us so we do not have a valid excuse. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 11:38, Michał Łazowik mlazowik@me.com wrote:
Hi,
Wiadomość napisana przez Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
w dniu 30 gru 2014, o godz. 10:24:
Reasonator works now.
Yes, but the thing is that putting anything on production is not just including it there. The whole code needs to be reviewed and there are some limitations, especially with 3rd party libraries. Bootstrap is a no-go. There are code conventions, performance and compatibility issues (mediawiki has to support IE 8) and internationalisation. And tests.
Maybe some of these things are already there, but still the review would have to be done.
Michał _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Hoi, One of the requisites as mentioned on the page by Lydia is that it is usable on any and all projects. Relying on local only technoloy like templates do not make sense.
Reasonator DOES provide functionality that is similar to what can be achieved with templating. When a person has relatives, for instance it will show. When something is in a particular location, it will show the hierarchy. when there is a geo coordinate, it shows a map,
Now citing "political reasons" begs the question since when our community decides NOT to implement things that are so manifestly in line what our mission.
When you consider in build queries... That is what Reasonator offers for a long long time.
Do you really know what Reasonator is about ? Do you speak for the community ?? Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 13:30, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Gerard, I like Reasonator a lot, but there is several advantages to an integrated solution :
- We can reuse technologies of the mediawiki ecosystem, like for example a
very important one : templates, that are already used an that a lot of wikimedians knows. It can be used to build template articles. I don't know if reasonator atm had a lot of contributions. It needs a github or something account and Javascript knowledge.
- community is reluctant to use not in wiki tools for such needs, it's
politically hard to push Reasonator integration into Wikidata fundamental templates, I can tell.
- A solution based on prebuilt queries to select the appropriate template
seems not so hard to implement only with Wikibase concepts, and deeply integrated to the mediawiki ecosystem, integrate Reasonator will probably eventually not result into such result.
And yes, Reasonator is usable right now. So it's cool that this feature is not implemented right now :) And reasonator can follow its own path.
2014-12-30 12:28 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, You also forget that it HAS been in use on several Wikipedias in the past. So when that was no problem why is it a problem that can not be overcome now and for now? Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 12:15, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, They are mostly excuses. The software has been in use for a LONG time. It is known for its relevance for the same long time.. So the value of this need is diminished by the lack of attention in the past.
The point is that these excuses are very much in the way of us achieving our goal.. sharing in the sum of all knowledge. The knowledge in Wikidata is available knowledge to us so we do not have a valid excuse. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 11:38, Michał Łazowik mlazowik@me.com wrote:
Hi,
Wiadomość napisana przez Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
w dniu 30 gru 2014, o godz. 10:24:
Reasonator works now.
Yes, but the thing is that putting anything on production is not just including it there. The whole code needs to be reviewed and there are some limitations, especially with 3rd party libraries. Bootstrap is a no-go. There are code conventions, performance and compatibility issues (mediawiki has to support IE 8) and internationalisation. And tests.
Maybe some of these things are already there, but still the review would have to be done.
Michał _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Do you speak for the community ??
Nope, I speak for myself. Nether told anything else.
Do you really know what Reasonator is about ?
I don't really appreciate the tone, I think reasonator is really cool and I'm probably one of the people who pushed its use the most in Wikidata. Do you have a useful answer to your own question ?
One point is that Reasonator uses Wikidata query, who, last time I checked, was not planned to be integrated into Wikibase. Wikibase will have its own query engine. It would be a giant software architecture mess if the core mediawiki/wikibase depends on external query engine.
2014-12-30 13:48 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, One of the requisites as mentioned on the page by Lydia is that it is usable on any and all projects. Relying on local only technoloy like templates do not make sense.
Reasonator DOES provide functionality that is similar to what can be achieved with templating. When a person has relatives, for instance it will show. When something is in a particular location, it will show the hierarchy. when there is a geo coordinate, it shows a map,
Now citing "political reasons" begs the question since when our community decides NOT to implement things that are so manifestly in line what our mission.
When you consider in build queries... That is what Reasonator offers for a long long time.
Do you really know what Reasonator is about ? Do you speak for the community ?? Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 13:30, Thomas Douillard <thomas.douillard@gmail.com
wrote:
Hi Gerard, I like Reasonator a lot, but there is several advantages to an integrated solution :
- We can reuse technologies of the mediawiki ecosystem, like for example
a very important one : templates, that are already used an that a lot of wikimedians knows. It can be used to build template articles. I don't know if reasonator atm had a lot of contributions. It needs a github or something account and Javascript knowledge.
- community is reluctant to use not in wiki tools for such needs, it's
politically hard to push Reasonator integration into Wikidata fundamental templates, I can tell.
- A solution based on prebuilt queries to select the appropriate template
seems not so hard to implement only with Wikibase concepts, and deeply integrated to the mediawiki ecosystem, integrate Reasonator will probably eventually not result into such result.
And yes, Reasonator is usable right now. So it's cool that this feature is not implemented right now :) And reasonator can follow its own path.
2014-12-30 12:28 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, You also forget that it HAS been in use on several Wikipedias in the past. So when that was no problem why is it a problem that can not be overcome now and for now? Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 12:15, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, They are mostly excuses. The software has been in use for a LONG time. It is known for its relevance for the same long time.. So the value of this need is diminished by the lack of attention in the past.
The point is that these excuses are very much in the way of us achieving our goal.. sharing in the sum of all knowledge. The knowledge in Wikidata is available knowledge to us so we do not have a valid excuse. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 11:38, Michał Łazowik mlazowik@me.com wrote:
Hi,
Wiadomość napisana przez Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
w dniu 30 gru 2014, o godz. 10:24:
Reasonator works now.
Yes, but the thing is that putting anything on production is not just including it there. The whole code needs to be reviewed and there are some limitations, especially with 3rd party libraries. Bootstrap is a no-go. There are code conventions, performance and compatibility issues (mediawiki has to support IE 8) and internationalisation. And tests.
Maybe some of these things are already there, but still the review would have to be done.
Michał _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Hoi, Until Wikidata provides query functionality, any arguments about it are without much merit. Until that time WDQ provides functionality. That functionality can be implemented in new functionality when it arrives.
As to the question if I know Reasonator ... Read my blog ... [1] Thanks, GerardM
[1] http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com
On 30 December 2014 at 14:08, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
Do you speak for the community ??
Nope, I speak for myself. Nether told anything else.
Do you really know what Reasonator is about ?
I don't really appreciate the tone, I think reasonator is really cool and I'm probably one of the people who pushed its use the most in Wikidata. Do you have a useful answer to your own question ?
One point is that Reasonator uses Wikidata query, who, last time I checked, was not planned to be integrated into Wikibase. Wikibase will have its own query engine. It would be a giant software architecture mess if the core mediawiki/wikibase depends on external query engine.
2014-12-30 13:48 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, One of the requisites as mentioned on the page by Lydia is that it is usable on any and all projects. Relying on local only technoloy like templates do not make sense.
Reasonator DOES provide functionality that is similar to what can be achieved with templating. When a person has relatives, for instance it will show. When something is in a particular location, it will show the hierarchy. when there is a geo coordinate, it shows a map,
Now citing "political reasons" begs the question since when our community decides NOT to implement things that are so manifestly in line what our mission.
When you consider in build queries... That is what Reasonator offers for a long long time.
Do you really know what Reasonator is about ? Do you speak for the community ?? Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 13:30, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gerard, I like Reasonator a lot, but there is several advantages to an integrated solution :
- We can reuse technologies of the mediawiki ecosystem, like for example
a very important one : templates, that are already used an that a lot of wikimedians knows. It can be used to build template articles. I don't know if reasonator atm had a lot of contributions. It needs a github or something account and Javascript knowledge.
- community is reluctant to use not in wiki tools for such needs, it's
politically hard to push Reasonator integration into Wikidata fundamental templates, I can tell.
- A solution based on prebuilt queries to select the appropriate
template seems not so hard to implement only with Wikibase concepts, and deeply integrated to the mediawiki ecosystem, integrate Reasonator will probably eventually not result into such result.
And yes, Reasonator is usable right now. So it's cool that this feature is not implemented right now :) And reasonator can follow its own path.
2014-12-30 12:28 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, You also forget that it HAS been in use on several Wikipedias in the past. So when that was no problem why is it a problem that can not be overcome now and for now? Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 12:15, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hoi, They are mostly excuses. The software has been in use for a LONG time. It is known for its relevance for the same long time.. So the value of this need is diminished by the lack of attention in the past.
The point is that these excuses are very much in the way of us achieving our goal.. sharing in the sum of all knowledge. The knowledge in Wikidata is available knowledge to us so we do not have a valid excuse. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 11:38, Michał Łazowik mlazowik@me.com wrote:
Hi,
> Wiadomość napisana przez Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com w dniu 30 gru 2014, o godz. 10:24: > > Reasonator works now.
Yes, but the thing is that putting anything on production is not just including it there. The whole code needs to be reviewed and there are some limitations, especially with 3rd party libraries. Bootstrap is a no-go. There are code conventions, performance and compatibility issues (mediawiki has to support IE 8) and internationalisation. And tests.
Maybe some of these things are already there, but still the review would have to be done.
Michał _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
At this step queries are planned https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Development_plan I guess placeholder articles are lower in Lydia's list, this seems only a preliminar steps.
So it's not stupid to assume they will be ready.
I read your blog a long time, including your posts about reasonator. I'm on this project for as long as you, I hope you know that. I just don't see your point, nor a clear answer. And I don't want to guess.
2014-12-30 15:59 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Until Wikidata provides query functionality, any arguments about it are without much merit. Until that time WDQ provides functionality. That functionality can be implemented in new functionality when it arrives.
As to the question if I know Reasonator ... Read my blog ... [1] Thanks, GerardM
[1] http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com
On 30 December 2014 at 14:08, Thomas Douillard <thomas.douillard@gmail.com
wrote:
Do you speak for the community ??
Nope, I speak for myself. Nether told anything else.
Do you really know what Reasonator is about ?
I don't really appreciate the tone, I think reasonator is really cool and I'm probably one of the people who pushed its use the most in Wikidata. Do you have a useful answer to your own question ?
One point is that Reasonator uses Wikidata query, who, last time I checked, was not planned to be integrated into Wikibase. Wikibase will have its own query engine. It would be a giant software architecture mess if the core mediawiki/wikibase depends on external query engine.
2014-12-30 13:48 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, One of the requisites as mentioned on the page by Lydia is that it is usable on any and all projects. Relying on local only technoloy like templates do not make sense.
Reasonator DOES provide functionality that is similar to what can be achieved with templating. When a person has relatives, for instance it will show. When something is in a particular location, it will show the hierarchy. when there is a geo coordinate, it shows a map,
Now citing "political reasons" begs the question since when our community decides NOT to implement things that are so manifestly in line what our mission.
When you consider in build queries... That is what Reasonator offers for a long long time.
Do you really know what Reasonator is about ? Do you speak for the community ?? Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 13:30, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gerard, I like Reasonator a lot, but there is several advantages to an integrated solution :
- We can reuse technologies of the mediawiki ecosystem, like for
example a very important one : templates, that are already used an that a lot of wikimedians knows. It can be used to build template articles. I don't know if reasonator atm had a lot of contributions. It needs a github or something account and Javascript knowledge.
- community is reluctant to use not in wiki tools for such needs, it's
politically hard to push Reasonator integration into Wikidata fundamental templates, I can tell.
- A solution based on prebuilt queries to select the appropriate
template seems not so hard to implement only with Wikibase concepts, and deeply integrated to the mediawiki ecosystem, integrate Reasonator will probably eventually not result into such result.
And yes, Reasonator is usable right now. So it's cool that this feature is not implemented right now :) And reasonator can follow its own path.
2014-12-30 12:28 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, You also forget that it HAS been in use on several Wikipedias in the past. So when that was no problem why is it a problem that can not be overcome now and for now? Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 12:15, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hoi, They are mostly excuses. The software has been in use for a LONG time. It is known for its relevance for the same long time.. So the value of this need is diminished by the lack of attention in the past.
The point is that these excuses are very much in the way of us achieving our goal.. sharing in the sum of all knowledge. The knowledge in Wikidata is available knowledge to us so we do not have a valid excuse. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 11:38, Michał Łazowik mlazowik@me.com wrote:
> Hi, > > > Wiadomość napisana przez Gerard Meijssen < > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> w dniu 30 gru 2014, o godz. 10:24: > > > > Reasonator works now. > > Yes, but the thing is that putting anything on production is not > just including it there. > The whole code needs to be reviewed and there are some limitations, > especially > with 3rd party libraries. Bootstrap is a no-go. There are code > conventions, performance > and compatibility issues (mediawiki has to support IE 8) and > internationalisation. And > tests. > > Maybe some of these things are already there, but still the review > would have to be > done. > > Michał > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >
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Hello everyone,
Sure: Reasonator is a great example, but converting the whole code is taking more time then making new stuff. You just can't intergrate it.
Greetings,
Sjoerd de Bruin sjoerddebruin@me.com
Op 30 dec. 2014, om 16:31 heeft Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com het volgende geschreven:
At this step queries are planned https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Development_plan https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Development_plan I guess placeholder articles are lower in Lydia's list, this seems only a preliminar steps.
So it's not stupid to assume they will be ready.
I read your blog a long time, including your posts about reasonator. I'm on this project for as long as you, I hope you know that. I just don't see your point, nor a clear answer. And I don't want to guess.
2014-12-30 15:59 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>: Hoi, Until Wikidata provides query functionality, any arguments about it are without much merit. Until that time WDQ provides functionality. That functionality can be implemented in new functionality when it arrives.
As to the question if I know Reasonator ... Read my blog ... [1] Thanks, GerardM
[1] http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/
On 30 December 2014 at 14:08, Thomas Douillard <thomas.douillard@gmail.com mailto:thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you speak for the community ??
Nope, I speak for myself. Nether told anything else.
Do you really know what Reasonator is about ?
I don't really appreciate the tone, I think reasonator is really cool and I'm probably one of the people who pushed its use the most in Wikidata. Do you have a useful answer to your own question ?
One point is that Reasonator uses Wikidata query, who, last time I checked, was not planned to be integrated into Wikibase. Wikibase will have its own query engine. It would be a giant software architecture mess if the core mediawiki/wikibase depends on external query engine.
2014-12-30 13:48 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>: Hoi, One of the requisites as mentioned on the page by Lydia is that it is usable on any and all projects. Relying on local only technoloy like templates do not make sense.
Reasonator DOES provide functionality that is similar to what can be achieved with templating. When a person has relatives, for instance it will show. When something is in a particular location, it will show the hierarchy. when there is a geo coordinate, it shows a map,
Now citing "political reasons" begs the question since when our community decides NOT to implement things that are so manifestly in line what our mission.
When you consider in build queries... That is what Reasonator offers for a long long time.
Do you really know what Reasonator is about ? Do you speak for the community ?? Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 13:30, Thomas Douillard <thomas.douillard@gmail.com mailto:thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote: Hi Gerard, I like Reasonator a lot, but there is several advantages to an integrated solution :
- We can reuse technologies of the mediawiki ecosystem, like for example a very important one : templates, that are already used an that a lot of wikimedians knows. It can be used to build template articles. I don't know if reasonator atm had a lot of contributions. It needs a github or something account and Javascript knowledge.
- community is reluctant to use not in wiki tools for such needs, it's politically hard to push Reasonator integration into Wikidata fundamental templates, I can tell.
- A solution based on prebuilt queries to select the appropriate template seems not so hard to implement only with Wikibase concepts, and deeply integrated to the mediawiki ecosystem, integrate Reasonator will probably eventually not result into such result.
And yes, Reasonator is usable right now. So it's cool that this feature is not implemented right now :) And reasonator can follow its own path.
2014-12-30 12:28 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>: Hoi, You also forget that it HAS been in use on several Wikipedias in the past. So when that was no problem why is it a problem that can not be overcome now and for now? Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 12:15, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote: Hoi, They are mostly excuses. The software has been in use for a LONG time. It is known for its relevance for the same long time.. So the value of this need is diminished by the lack of attention in the past.
The point is that these excuses are very much in the way of us achieving our goal.. sharing in the sum of all knowledge. The knowledge in Wikidata is available knowledge to us so we do not have a valid excuse. Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 11:38, Michał Łazowik <mlazowik@me.com mailto:mlazowik@me.com> wrote: Hi,
Wiadomość napisana przez Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> w dniu 30 gru 2014, o godz. 10:24:
Reasonator works now.
Yes, but the thing is that putting anything on production is not just including it there. The whole code needs to be reviewed and there are some limitations, especially with 3rd party libraries. Bootstrap is a no-go. There are code conventions, performance and compatibility issues (mediawiki has to support IE 8) and internationalisation. And tests.
Maybe some of these things are already there, but still the review would have to be done.
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Hoi, What is your point ? Converting code ... it is about functionality. Functionality can be re-implemented. While we are waiting for that, we do not have to wait. Why should we ? What is achieved in that way ??
We certainly do not need to be in denial that query was announced more than a year ago and there is no point in guessing when it will work as well as WDQ. When it will come close. Thanks, Gerard
On 1 January 2015 at 18:43, Sjoerd de Bruin sjoerddebruin@me.com wrote:
Hello everyone,
Sure: Reasonator is a great example, but converting the whole code is taking more time then making new stuff. You just can't intergrate it.
Greetings,
Sjoerd de Bruin sjoerddebruin@me.com
Op 30 dec. 2014, om 16:31 heeft Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
At this step queries are planned https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Development_plan I guess placeholder articles are lower in Lydia's list, this seems only a preliminar steps.
So it's not stupid to assume they will be ready.
I read your blog a long time, including your posts about reasonator. I'm on this project for as long as you, I hope you know that. I just don't see your point, nor a clear answer. And I don't want to guess.
2014-12-30 15:59 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Until Wikidata provides query functionality, any arguments about it are without much merit. Until that time WDQ provides functionality. That functionality can be implemented in new functionality when it arrives.
As to the question if I know Reasonator ... Read my blog ... [1] Thanks, GerardM
[1] http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com
On 30 December 2014 at 14:08, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you speak for the community ??
Nope, I speak for myself. Nether told anything else.
Do you really know what Reasonator is about ?
I don't really appreciate the tone, I think reasonator is really cool and I'm probably one of the people who pushed its use the most in Wikidata. Do you have a useful answer to your own question ?
One point is that Reasonator uses Wikidata query, who, last time I checked, was not planned to be integrated into Wikibase. Wikibase will have its own query engine. It would be a giant software architecture mess if the core mediawiki/wikibase depends on external query engine.
2014-12-30 13:48 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, One of the requisites as mentioned on the page by Lydia is that it is usable on any and all projects. Relying on local only technoloy like templates do not make sense.
Reasonator DOES provide functionality that is similar to what can be achieved with templating. When a person has relatives, for instance it will show. When something is in a particular location, it will show the hierarchy. when there is a geo coordinate, it shows a map,
Now citing "political reasons" begs the question since when our community decides NOT to implement things that are so manifestly in line what our mission.
When you consider in build queries... That is what Reasonator offers for a long long time.
Do you really know what Reasonator is about ? Do you speak for the community ?? Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 13:30, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gerard, I like Reasonator a lot, but there is several advantages to an integrated solution :
- We can reuse technologies of the mediawiki ecosystem, like for
example a very important one : templates, that are already used an that a lot of wikimedians knows. It can be used to build template articles. I don't know if reasonator atm had a lot of contributions. It needs a github or something account and Javascript knowledge.
- community is reluctant to use not in wiki tools for such needs, it's
politically hard to push Reasonator integration into Wikidata fundamental templates, I can tell.
- A solution based on prebuilt queries to select the appropriate
template seems not so hard to implement only with Wikibase concepts, and deeply integrated to the mediawiki ecosystem, integrate Reasonator will probably eventually not result into such result.
And yes, Reasonator is usable right now. So it's cool that this feature is not implemented right now :) And reasonator can follow its own path.
2014-12-30 12:28 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com :
Hoi, You also forget that it HAS been in use on several Wikipedias in the past. So when that was no problem why is it a problem that can not be overcome now and for now? Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 12:15, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi, > They are mostly excuses. The software has been in use for a LONG > time. It is known for its relevance for the same long time.. So the value > of this need is diminished by the lack of attention in the past. > > The point is that these excuses are very much in the way of us > achieving our goal.. sharing in the sum of all knowledge. The knowledge in > Wikidata is available knowledge to us so we do not have a valid excuse. > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 30 December 2014 at 11:38, Michał Łazowik mlazowik@me.com > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> > Wiadomość napisana przez Gerard Meijssen < >> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> w dniu 30 gru 2014, o godz. 10:24: >> > >> > Reasonator works now. >> >> Yes, but the thing is that putting anything on production is not >> just including it there. >> The whole code needs to be reviewed and there are some limitations, >> especially >> with 3rd party libraries. Bootstrap is a no-go. There are code >> conventions, performance >> and compatibility issues (mediawiki has to support IE 8) and >> internationalisation. And >> tests. >> >> Maybe some of these things are already there, but still the review >> would have to be >> done. >> >> Michał >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> > >
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Yeah, you're right, I'm pretty sure Lydia has something to hide ... It must be a smokescreen.
Ot maybe it's throwing a bone to Gerard such that Gerard has a bone to grumble to ;)
Seriously, I'd also like queries to be ready, but I'm pretty sure Lydia and the devteam are doing their best. No reason to be unpleasant.
2015-01-01 20:09 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, What is your point ? Converting code ... it is about functionality. Functionality can be re-implemented. While we are waiting for that, we do not have to wait. Why should we ? What is achieved in that way ??
We certainly do not need to be in denial that query was announced more than a year ago and there is no point in guessing when it will work as well as WDQ. When it will come close. Thanks, Gerard
On 1 January 2015 at 18:43, Sjoerd de Bruin sjoerddebruin@me.com wrote:
Hello everyone,
Sure: Reasonator is a great example, but converting the whole code is taking more time then making new stuff. You just can't intergrate it.
Greetings,
Sjoerd de Bruin sjoerddebruin@me.com
Op 30 dec. 2014, om 16:31 heeft Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
At this step queries are planned https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Development_plan I guess placeholder articles are lower in Lydia's list, this seems only a preliminar steps.
So it's not stupid to assume they will be ready.
I read your blog a long time, including your posts about reasonator. I'm on this project for as long as you, I hope you know that. I just don't see your point, nor a clear answer. And I don't want to guess.
2014-12-30 15:59 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Until Wikidata provides query functionality, any arguments about it are without much merit. Until that time WDQ provides functionality. That functionality can be implemented in new functionality when it arrives.
As to the question if I know Reasonator ... Read my blog ... [1] Thanks, GerardM
[1] http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com
On 30 December 2014 at 14:08, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you speak for the community ??
Nope, I speak for myself. Nether told anything else.
Do you really know what Reasonator is about ?
I don't really appreciate the tone, I think reasonator is really cool and I'm probably one of the people who pushed its use the most in Wikidata. Do you have a useful answer to your own question ?
One point is that Reasonator uses Wikidata query, who, last time I checked, was not planned to be integrated into Wikibase. Wikibase will have its own query engine. It would be a giant software architecture mess if the core mediawiki/wikibase depends on external query engine.
2014-12-30 13:48 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, One of the requisites as mentioned on the page by Lydia is that it is usable on any and all projects. Relying on local only technoloy like templates do not make sense.
Reasonator DOES provide functionality that is similar to what can be achieved with templating. When a person has relatives, for instance it will show. When something is in a particular location, it will show the hierarchy. when there is a geo coordinate, it shows a map,
Now citing "political reasons" begs the question since when our community decides NOT to implement things that are so manifestly in line what our mission.
When you consider in build queries... That is what Reasonator offers for a long long time.
Do you really know what Reasonator is about ? Do you speak for the community ?? Thanks, GerardM
On 30 December 2014 at 13:30, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gerard, I like Reasonator a lot, but there is several advantages to an integrated solution :
- We can reuse technologies of the mediawiki ecosystem, like for
example a very important one : templates, that are already used an that a lot of wikimedians knows. It can be used to build template articles. I don't know if reasonator atm had a lot of contributions. It needs a github or something account and Javascript knowledge.
- community is reluctant to use not in wiki tools for such needs,
it's politically hard to push Reasonator integration into Wikidata fundamental templates, I can tell.
- A solution based on prebuilt queries to select the appropriate
template seems not so hard to implement only with Wikibase concepts, and deeply integrated to the mediawiki ecosystem, integrate Reasonator will probably eventually not result into such result.
And yes, Reasonator is usable right now. So it's cool that this feature is not implemented right now :) And reasonator can follow its own path.
2014-12-30 12:28 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com >:
> Hoi, > You also forget that it HAS been in use on several Wikipedias in the > past. So when that was no problem why is it a problem that can not be > overcome now and for now? > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 30 December 2014 at 12:15, Gerard Meijssen < > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hoi, >> They are mostly excuses. The software has been in use for a LONG >> time. It is known for its relevance for the same long time.. So the value >> of this need is diminished by the lack of attention in the past. >> >> The point is that these excuses are very much in the way of us >> achieving our goal.. sharing in the sum of all knowledge. The knowledge in >> Wikidata is available knowledge to us so we do not have a valid excuse. >> Thanks, >> GerardM >> >> On 30 December 2014 at 11:38, Michał Łazowik mlazowik@me.com >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> > Wiadomość napisana przez Gerard Meijssen < >>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> w dniu 30 gru 2014, o godz. 10:24: >>> > >>> > Reasonator works now. >>> >>> Yes, but the thing is that putting anything on production is not >>> just including it there. >>> The whole code needs to be reviewed and there are some >>> limitations, especially >>> with 3rd party libraries. Bootstrap is a no-go. There are code >>> conventions, performance >>> and compatibility issues (mediawiki has to support IE 8) and >>> internationalisation. And >>> tests. >>> >>> Maybe some of these things are already there, but still the review >>> would have to be >>> done. >>> >>> Michał >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > >
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