I don’t know what you disagree with but personally I investd a lot of time in those discussions in frwiki, and I keep a lot of bitterness over the process. This seems like a wierdly very very similar redux of those discussions with the exact same arguments, and I’m done with all this. I’m also done with the « it’s not the use by itself who is the problem it’s the advocacy » who is very close to the one of conspiracy theory (a group of outsider want to steal the control of your wiki and invade it) who is a serious attack on the good faith of everyone borderline to push everything on fire. Enough with this.
2017-09-20 11:41 GMT+02:00 Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com:
No, I actually disagree. There is a number of English Wikipedia users who advocate banning Wikidata completely (I mean, not banning it as a project, but banning any direct interaction with Wikidata). Some of them are reasonable, some of them are not reasonable. Some of their arguments have merit, other arguments do not (for instance, one argument frequently repeated is that everything what shows up on a Wikipedia page should be in the code of the page - whereas it is not true already for many years for pages using complex templates such as railway lines etc). If we just ignore this, they open an RfC at some point and ban Wikidata. Also, discussing arguments help to convince those who are sane that at least something from Wikidata can be eventually used. There are of course always people who are centered on the Default Language Wikipedia and do not care about other projects, but completely ignoring the argument would not help here.
Cheers Yaroslav
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com wrote:
Yes the hostility is so general that it is pointless to try to discuss anything with those anti-WD people at this point. We can better disregard such discussions and focus on ways to help any Wikipedia editors who are eager to tap into WD resources, such as enabling people to easily add high quality references to Wikipedia in cases of articles that currently have zero references, for example. I think that was the original idea behind the cite-Q thing before the implementation got completely derailed, wasn't it? The main question in this type of situation, namely where Wikidata has something truly useful that Wikipedia lacks, is how to indicate this to potential editor/readers at the Wikipedia-level? Maybe some sort of basic gadget that indicates the number of statements in the associated item?
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com wrote:
There is also a more general and very useful discussion of the same issues at this page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikidata/2017_S tate_of_affairs
(check recent edits, last 5 days or so).
Since it is not related to any decision-making (at least not yet) I would expect it is easier to comment there, though some editors are really hostile (I was at some point labeled as a "part of Wikidata crowd" in a negative sense and had to point out that I have 15 times as many edits on the English Wikipedia than the editor who was attacking me).
Cheers Yaroslav
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com wrote:
Yes Yaroslav, I totally agree with you (and don't worry, I wouldn't dream of commenting there). On the other hand, this is extremely relevant for the Wikidata mailing list and I am really grateful to Dario for posting about it, because I had no idea. I stopped following that "2017 state of affairs" thing when it first got ugly back in January. I suggest that in cases where (as Dario suggests) highly structured and superior data from Wikidata *could* be used in Wikipedia, that we create some sort of property to indicate this on Wikidata, along the lines of the P31->Q17362920 we use to show that a certain Wikipedia has a pending merge problem. If the information is ever used on that Wikipedia (either with or without that "Cite-Q" template) then the property for that specific Wikipedia should be removed. Ideally this property could be used as a qualifier at the statement level (so e.g. for paintings, a statement on a collection property for a painting that it was stolen and rediscovered, or on a significant event property that it was restored and reattributed, or that it was owned by the Hitler museum and stored it the depot in Linz during WWII, etc).
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks Dario.
May I please add that whereas the deletion discussion is of course open to everyone, a sudden influx of users who are not regular editors of the English Wikipedia will be looked at extremely negatively. Please be considerate.
Cheers Yaroslav
On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Dario Taraborelli < dtaraborelli@wikimedia.org> wrote:
Hey folks,
I wanted to draw your attention to a deletion nomination discussion for an experimental template – {{Cite Q}} https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cite_Q – pulling bibliographic data from Wikidata:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discus sion/Log/2017_September_15#Template:Cite_Q
As you'll see, there is significant resistance against the broader usage of a template which exemplifies how structured bibliographic data in WIkidata could be reused across Wikimedia projects.
I personally think many of the concerns brought up by editors who support the deletion request are legitimate. As the editor who nominated the template for deletion notes: "The existence of the template is one thing; the advocacy to use this systematically is another one altogether. Anybody seeking that kind of systematic, radical change in Wikipedia must get consensus for that in Wikipedia first. Being BOLD is fine but has its limits, and this kind of thing is one of them."
I find myself in agreement with this statement, which I believe applies to much more than just bibliographic data from Wikidata: it's about virtually any kind of data and contents reused across projects governed by different policies and expectations. I think what's happening is that an experimental template – primarily meant to showcase how data reuse from Wikidata *might *work – is perceived as a norm for how references *will* or *should* work in the future.
If you're involved in the WikiCite initiative, and are considering participating in the deletion discussion, I encourage you to keep a constructive tone and understand the perspective of people who are concerned about the use and misuse of this template.
As one of the WikiCite organizers, I see the success of the initiative as coming from rich, highly curated data that other projects will want to reuse, and from technical and usability advances for all contributors, not from giving an impression that the goal is to use Wikidata to subvert how other Wikimedia communities do their job. I'll post a note explaining my perspective.
Dario
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