yes, exactly, Chitu.
Aaron - per your comment:
I'd argue that anyone who does not value a publication purely because the
venue is called a "conference" regardless of the impact/restrictiveness is making a mistake.
I don't think anybody here depreciated the value of conference publications. All I'm saying is that in my discipline (management/organization science, and afaik sociology, too) conference papers do not count for any career moves, grants, etc., period. You can list them, you can give acceptance rates, but it doesn't matter. It is not my preference, it is the system I have to operate in. This is why conferences such as WikiSym are not very attractive for my field, as they require some copyright transfer (which may effectively make publishing in the final destination difficult).
Btw, in my discipline book chapters do not matter much neither, but they still do count in some way, while conference papers do not count at all. This is why some conference organizers game the system and publish "monographs", de facto basing on the conference proceedings.
best,
dj
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Chitu Okoli Chitu.Okoli@concordia.cawrote:
I can't speak for every field, but at least for my own field of information systems, where conferences count for zero, at least among the most research-intensive universities:
Counting conference publications or not is in no way a judgment either way of the quality of the papers. In information systems, it is well known that some high-quality conferences (such as ICIS, HICSS and AoM-OCIS) regularly field higher quality papers than many journals. However, such publication often counted as zero in promotion and tenure considerations.
What is going on is that in our field (and I suspect also in similar fields) *conferences are not considered terminal publication outlets--only journals are*. That is, when you present a paper in a conference, even when it is published in the proceedings, you are expected to later publish a significantly revised and significantly extended version of that paper in a journal article (and I would guess that in 90% of the time, this is what happens, at least for high-quality papers). A high-quality conference paper is expected to yield a high-quality journal article. Thus, *to avoid double-counting*, conference publications are ignored in promotion and tenure considerations.
From what I understand, in fields like computer science where conferences are terminal publication outlets (that is, conference papers are often not republished in journals), then it naturally makes sense that the conference papers should be considered the measure of a researcher's productive quality.
~ Chitu
Aaron Halfaker a écrit :
As for disciplines that do not count conference papers, I cannot comment because my discipline (Computer Science) looks at top tier conference publications in a similar way to journal publications. However, I'd argue that anyone who does not value a publication purely because the venue is called a "conference" regardless of the impact/restrictiveness is making a mistake. I've seen people include the acceptance rates on their CV to avoid this situation.
-Aaron
Wiki-research-l mailing list Wiki-research-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
Hi Dariusz,
This is interesting, because if we can articulate problems in the copyright notice, we may be able to fix them. Currently, for WikiSym, the ACM Publications copyright form for proceedings is used:
*http://www.acm.org/publications/CopyReleaseProc-9-12.pdf* This includes: * The right to reuse any portion of the Work, without fee, in future works of the Author’s (or Author’s Employer’s) own, including books, lectures and presentations in all media, provided that the ACM citation, notice of the Copyright and the ACM DOI are included ...
* The right to revise the work.
What is a typical copyright notice for conferences you *do* publish in? What rights do you need?
In computer science, typically a journal publication arising in part from a conference paper would include new results, or several papers would be combined.
-Jodi
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak darekj@alk.edu.plwrote:
This is why conferences such as WikiSym are not very attractive for my field, as they require some copyright transfer (which may effectively make publishing in the final destination difficult).
hi Jodi,
the conferences I attend or follow (e.g. EGOS, AoM, APROS. SFAA) afaik do not typically require signed copyright notices at all, and if they do, the copyright is granted specifically for publishing in the proceedings, and legally resembles a license more, than a full copyright transfer. The problem with your copyright form, as I read it, is that ACM receives and retains all rights (which may be not welcome by some journal publishers, and you never know where eventually you're going to try to publish, so why risk?), and also that it does not specify journal articles as acceptable forms of future reusing the paper.
In fact, the copyright form is very similar to the forms used by journals (many of which allow publishing the article on a personal page or in future book works, if proper attribution is provided). This also may indicate to some possible attendants that WikiSym conference publication is an alternative to a journal publication.
In my field a conference paper does not count as a publication and is usually treated as a way of improving the paper before submitting it to a journal. Thus the possibility that you're going to use the paper almost verbatim in a journal submission is quite real. These differences possibly may result in WikiSym, as a conference and only in some disciplines, being less popular than it deserves.
best,
dariusz
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Jodi Schneider jschneider@pobox.com wrote:
Hi Dariusz,
This is interesting, because if we can articulate problems in the copyright notice, we may be able to fix them. Currently, for WikiSym, the ACM Publications copyright form for proceedings is used:
*http://www.acm.org/publications/CopyReleaseProc-9-12.pdf* This includes:
- The right to reuse any portion of the Work, without fee, in future works
of the Author's (or Author's Employer's) own, including books, lectures and presentations in all media, provided that the ACM citation, notice of the Copyright and the ACM DOI are included ...
- The right to revise the work.
What is a typical copyright notice for conferences you *do* publish in? What rights do you need?
In computer science, typically a journal publication arising in part from a conference paper would include new results, or several papers would be combined.
-Jodi
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak darekj@alk.edu.plwrote:
This is why conferences such as WikiSym are not very attractive for my field, as they require some copyright transfer (which may effectively make publishing in the final destination difficult).
Hi Dariusz,
For reusing the paper unchanged this is indeed a problem. "Journal" could be added to the list of mentioned reuse venues--but this still wouldn't imply that the entirety of the paper could be used without change, I suspect. For ACM conferences, there are two types of papers:
- archival - non-archival
Archival papers are published in the ACM digital library, in the conference proceedings, and are considered final research products to be cited.
Non-archival papers are not considered final research products and (as far as I know) don't require copyright transfer.
Aside from making papers destined to be used VERBATIM without change in journals 'non-archival', how could this be addressed?
-Jodi
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 6:16 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak darekj@alk.edu.plwrote:
hi Jodi,
the conferences I attend or follow (e.g. EGOS, AoM, APROS. SFAA) afaik do not typically require signed copyright notices at all, and if they do, the copyright is granted specifically for publishing in the proceedings, and legally resembles a license more, than a full copyright transfer. The problem with your copyright form, as I read it, is that ACM receives and retains all rights (which may be not welcome by some journal publishers, and you never know where eventually you're going to try to publish, so why risk?), and also that it does not specify journal articles as acceptable forms of future reusing the paper.
In fact, the copyright form is very similar to the forms used by journals (many of which allow publishing the article on a personal page or in future book works, if proper attribution is provided). This also may indicate to some possible attendants that WikiSym conference publication is an alternative to a journal publication.
In my field a conference paper does not count as a publication and is usually treated as a way of improving the paper before submitting it to a journal. Thus the possibility that you're going to use the paper almost verbatim in a journal submission is quite real. These differences possibly may result in WikiSym, as a conference and only in some disciplines, being less popular than it deserves.
best,
dariusz
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Jodi Schneider jschneider@pobox.comwrote:
Hi Dariusz,
This is interesting, because if we can articulate problems in the copyright notice, we may be able to fix them. Currently, for WikiSym, the ACM Publications copyright form for proceedings is used:
*http://www.acm.org/publications/CopyReleaseProc-9-12.pdf* This includes:
- The right to reuse any portion of the Work, without fee, in future
works of the Author's (or Author's Employer's) own, including books, lectures and presentations in all media, provided that the ACM citation, notice of the Copyright and the ACM DOI are included ...
- The right to revise the work.
What is a typical copyright notice for conferences you *do* publish in? What rights do you need?
In computer science, typically a journal publication arising in part from a conference paper would include new results, or several papers would be combined.
-Jodi
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak darekj@alk.edu.plwrote:
This is why conferences such as WikiSym are not very attractive for my field, as they require some copyright transfer (which may effectively make publishing in the final destination difficult).
--
dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak profesor zarządzania kierownik katedry Zarządzania Międzynarodowego i centrum badawczego CROW Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego http://www.crow.alk.edu.pl
I think it basically is a different publication model. You probably could have two track (one for final, the other for working papers) so as to address the disciplines which rely on journals as final outlets.
Best, Dj 20 lis 2012 20:26, "Jodi Schneider" jschneider@pobox.com napisał(a):
Hi Dariusz,
For reusing the paper unchanged this is indeed a problem. "Journal" could be added to the list of mentioned reuse venues--but this still wouldn't imply that the entirety of the paper could be used without change, I suspect. For ACM conferences, there are two types of papers:
- archival
- non-archival
Archival papers are published in the ACM digital library, in the conference proceedings, and are considered final research products to be cited.
Non-archival papers are not considered final research products and (as far as I know) don't require copyright transfer.
Aside from making papers destined to be used VERBATIM without change in journals 'non-archival', how could this be addressed?
-Jodi
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 6:16 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak darekj@alk.edu.plwrote:
hi Jodi,
the conferences I attend or follow (e.g. EGOS, AoM, APROS. SFAA) afaik do not typically require signed copyright notices at all, and if they do, the copyright is granted specifically for publishing in the proceedings, and legally resembles a license more, than a full copyright transfer. The problem with your copyright form, as I read it, is that ACM receives and retains all rights (which may be not welcome by some journal publishers, and you never know where eventually you're going to try to publish, so why risk?), and also that it does not specify journal articles as acceptable forms of future reusing the paper.
In fact, the copyright form is very similar to the forms used by journals (many of which allow publishing the article on a personal page or in future book works, if proper attribution is provided). This also may indicate to some possible attendants that WikiSym conference publication is an alternative to a journal publication.
In my field a conference paper does not count as a publication and is usually treated as a way of improving the paper before submitting it to a journal. Thus the possibility that you're going to use the paper almost verbatim in a journal submission is quite real. These differences possibly may result in WikiSym, as a conference and only in some disciplines, being less popular than it deserves.
best,
dariusz
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Jodi Schneider jschneider@pobox.comwrote:
Hi Dariusz,
This is interesting, because if we can articulate problems in the copyright notice, we may be able to fix them. Currently, for WikiSym, the ACM Publications copyright form for proceedings is used:
*http://www.acm.org/publications/CopyReleaseProc-9-12.pdf* This includes:
- The right to reuse any portion of the Work, without fee, in future
works of the Author's (or Author's Employer's) own, including books, lectures and presentations in all media, provided that the ACM citation, notice of the Copyright and the ACM DOI are included ...
- The right to revise the work.
What is a typical copyright notice for conferences you *do* publish in? What rights do you need?
In computer science, typically a journal publication arising in part from a conference paper would include new results, or several papers would be combined.
-Jodi
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak darekj@alk.edu.plwrote:
This is why conferences such as WikiSym are not very attractive for my field, as they require some copyright transfer (which may effectively make publishing in the final destination difficult).
--
dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak profesor zarządzania kierownik katedry Zarządzania Międzynarodowego i centrum badawczego CROW Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego http://www.crow.alk.edu.pl
Can we not just label which of our accepted papers are archival? It seems that some disciplines assume Journal == Archival and Conference != Archival. This is apparently inaccurate in other disciplines so there must be some reason we don't just note which papers are archived and which are not. I don't see it though.
-Aaron
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Dariusz Jemielniak darekj@alk.edu.plwrote:
I think it basically is a different publication model. You probably could have two track (one for final, the other for working papers) so as to address the disciplines which rely on journals as final outlets.
Best, Dj 20 lis 2012 20:26, "Jodi Schneider" jschneider@pobox.com napisał(a):
Hi Dariusz,
For reusing the paper unchanged this is indeed a problem. "Journal" could be added to the list of mentioned reuse venues--but this still wouldn't imply that the entirety of the paper could be used without change, I suspect. For ACM conferences, there are two types of papers:
- archival
- non-archival
Archival papers are published in the ACM digital library, in the conference proceedings, and are considered final research products to be cited.
Non-archival papers are not considered final research products and (as far as I know) don't require copyright transfer.
Aside from making papers destined to be used VERBATIM without change in journals 'non-archival', how could this be addressed?
-Jodi
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 6:16 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak darekj@alk.edu.plwrote:
hi Jodi,
the conferences I attend or follow (e.g. EGOS, AoM, APROS. SFAA) afaik do not typically require signed copyright notices at all, and if they do, the copyright is granted specifically for publishing in the proceedings, and legally resembles a license more, than a full copyright transfer. The problem with your copyright form, as I read it, is that ACM receives and retains all rights (which may be not welcome by some journal publishers, and you never know where eventually you're going to try to publish, so why risk?), and also that it does not specify journal articles as acceptable forms of future reusing the paper.
In fact, the copyright form is very similar to the forms used by journals (many of which allow publishing the article on a personal page or in future book works, if proper attribution is provided). This also may indicate to some possible attendants that WikiSym conference publication is an alternative to a journal publication.
In my field a conference paper does not count as a publication and is usually treated as a way of improving the paper before submitting it to a journal. Thus the possibility that you're going to use the paper almost verbatim in a journal submission is quite real. These differences possibly may result in WikiSym, as a conference and only in some disciplines, being less popular than it deserves.
best,
dariusz
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Jodi Schneider jschneider@pobox.comwrote:
Hi Dariusz,
This is interesting, because if we can articulate problems in the copyright notice, we may be able to fix them. Currently, for WikiSym, the ACM Publications copyright form for proceedings is used:
*http://www.acm.org/publications/CopyReleaseProc-9-12.pdf* This includes:
- The right to reuse any portion of the Work, without fee, in future
works of the Author's (or Author's Employer's) own, including books, lectures and presentations in all media, provided that the ACM citation, notice of the Copyright and the ACM DOI are included ...
- The right to revise the work.
What is a typical copyright notice for conferences you *do* publish in? What rights do you need?
In computer science, typically a journal publication arising in part from a conference paper would include new results, or several papers would be combined.
-Jodi
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak darekj@alk.edu.plwrote:
This is why conferences such as WikiSym are not very attractive for my field, as they require some copyright transfer (which may effectively make publishing in the final destination difficult).
--
dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak profesor zarządzania kierownik katedry Zarządzania Międzynarodowego i centrum badawczego CROW Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego http://www.crow.alk.edu.pl
Wiki-research-l mailing list Wiki-research-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
Hi Aaron,
I think Dariusz' suggestion is that we add a conference track for non-archival "working papers" from social scientists.
It is much faster for WikiSym to change than for the recognition environment of all social scientists to change. Even if we mark papers as archival the 'conference' label may still be a downside.
What do you think?
-Jodi
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Aaron Halfaker aaron.halfaker@gmail.comwrote:
Can we not just label which of our accepted papers are archival? It seems that some disciplines assume Journal == Archival and Conference != Archival. This is apparently inaccurate in other disciplines so there must be some reason we don't just note which papers are archived and which are not. I don't see it though.
-Aaron
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Dariusz Jemielniak darekj@alk.edu.plwrote:
I think it basically is a different publication model. You probably could have two track (one for final, the other for working papers) so as to address the disciplines which rely on journals as final outlets.
Best, Dj 20 lis 2012 20:26, "Jodi Schneider" jschneider@pobox.com napisał(a):
Hi Dariusz,
For reusing the paper unchanged this is indeed a problem. "Journal" could be added to the list of mentioned reuse venues--but this still wouldn't imply that the entirety of the paper could be used without change, I suspect. For ACM conferences, there are two types of papers:
- archival
- non-archival
Archival papers are published in the ACM digital library, in the conference proceedings, and are considered final research products to be cited.
Non-archival papers are not considered final research products and (as far as I know) don't require copyright transfer.
Aside from making papers destined to be used VERBATIM without change in journals 'non-archival', how could this be addressed?
-Jodi
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 6:16 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak darekj@alk.edu.plwrote:
hi Jodi,
the conferences I attend or follow (e.g. EGOS, AoM, APROS. SFAA) afaik do not typically require signed copyright notices at all, and if they do, the copyright is granted specifically for publishing in the proceedings, and legally resembles a license more, than a full copyright transfer. The problem with your copyright form, as I read it, is that ACM receives and retains all rights (which may be not welcome by some journal publishers, and you never know where eventually you're going to try to publish, so why risk?), and also that it does not specify journal articles as acceptable forms of future reusing the paper.
In fact, the copyright form is very similar to the forms used by journals (many of which allow publishing the article on a personal page or in future book works, if proper attribution is provided). This also may indicate to some possible attendants that WikiSym conference publication is an alternative to a journal publication.
In my field a conference paper does not count as a publication and is usually treated as a way of improving the paper before submitting it to a journal. Thus the possibility that you're going to use the paper almost verbatim in a journal submission is quite real. These differences possibly may result in WikiSym, as a conference and only in some disciplines, being less popular than it deserves.
best,
dariusz
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Jodi Schneider jschneider@pobox.comwrote:
Hi Dariusz,
This is interesting, because if we can articulate problems in the copyright notice, we may be able to fix them. Currently, for WikiSym, the ACM Publications copyright form for proceedings is used:
*http://www.acm.org/publications/CopyReleaseProc-9-12.pdf* This includes:
- The right to reuse any portion of the Work, without fee, in future
works of the Author's (or Author's Employer's) own, including books, lectures and presentations in all media, provided that the ACM citation, notice of the Copyright and the ACM DOI are included ...
- The right to revise the work.
What is a typical copyright notice for conferences you *do* publish in? What rights do you need?
In computer science, typically a journal publication arising in part from a conference paper would include new results, or several papers would be combined.
-Jodi
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak darekj@alk.edu.plwrote:
This is why conferences such as WikiSym are not very attractive for my field, as they require some copyright transfer (which may effectively make publishing in the final destination difficult).
--
dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak profesor zarządzania kierownik katedry Zarządzania Międzynarodowego i centrum badawczego CROW Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego http://www.crow.alk.edu.pl
Wiki-research-l mailing list Wiki-research-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
Wiki-research-l mailing list Wiki-research-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
Jodi,
You have a good point about the ease of changing WikiSym and opening a new track, but I wonder why an author might choose to submit a "working paper" and pay for travel to a conference if they'll end up submitting the final product to a place where they receive credit anyway.
Since WikiSym is intended to be a terminal publication venue, I'd like that all who submit (and are accepted) get the appropriate amount of credit for their work, but I understand that it would be naive to expect the world to be able/willing to quickly change.
-Aaron
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 10:00 AM, Jodi Schneider jschneider@pobox.comwrote:
Hi Aaron,
I think Dariusz' suggestion is that we add a conference track for non-archival "working papers" from social scientists.
It is much faster for WikiSym to change than for the recognition environment of all social scientists to change. Even if we mark papers as archival the 'conference' label may still be a downside.
What do you think?
-Jodi
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Aaron Halfaker aaron.halfaker@gmail.comwrote:
Can we not just label which of our accepted papers are archival? It seems that some disciplines assume Journal == Archival and Conference != Archival. This is apparently inaccurate in other disciplines so there must be some reason we don't just note which papers are archived and which are not. I don't see it though.
-Aaron
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Dariusz Jemielniak darekj@alk.edu.plwrote:
I think it basically is a different publication model. You probably could have two track (one for final, the other for working papers) so as to address the disciplines which rely on journals as final outlets.
Best, Dj 20 lis 2012 20:26, "Jodi Schneider" jschneider@pobox.com napisał(a):
Hi Dariusz,
For reusing the paper unchanged this is indeed a problem. "Journal" could be added to the list of mentioned reuse venues--but this still wouldn't imply that the entirety of the paper could be used without change, I suspect. For ACM conferences, there are two types of papers:
- archival
- non-archival
Archival papers are published in the ACM digital library, in the conference proceedings, and are considered final research products to be cited.
Non-archival papers are not considered final research products and (as far as I know) don't require copyright transfer.
Aside from making papers destined to be used VERBATIM without change in journals 'non-archival', how could this be addressed?
-Jodi
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 6:16 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak darekj@alk.edu.plwrote:
hi Jodi,
the conferences I attend or follow (e.g. EGOS, AoM, APROS. SFAA) afaik do not typically require signed copyright notices at all, and if they do, the copyright is granted specifically for publishing in the proceedings, and legally resembles a license more, than a full copyright transfer. The problem with your copyright form, as I read it, is that ACM receives and retains all rights (which may be not welcome by some journal publishers, and you never know where eventually you're going to try to publish, so why risk?), and also that it does not specify journal articles as acceptable forms of future reusing the paper.
In fact, the copyright form is very similar to the forms used by journals (many of which allow publishing the article on a personal page or in future book works, if proper attribution is provided). This also may indicate to some possible attendants that WikiSym conference publication is an alternative to a journal publication.
In my field a conference paper does not count as a publication and is usually treated as a way of improving the paper before submitting it to a journal. Thus the possibility that you're going to use the paper almost verbatim in a journal submission is quite real. These differences possibly may result in WikiSym, as a conference and only in some disciplines, being less popular than it deserves.
best,
dariusz
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Jodi Schneider jschneider@pobox.comwrote:
Hi Dariusz,
This is interesting, because if we can articulate problems in the copyright notice, we may be able to fix them. Currently, for WikiSym, the ACM Publications copyright form for proceedings is used:
*http://www.acm.org/publications/CopyReleaseProc-9-12.pdf* This includes:
- The right to reuse any portion of the Work, without fee, in future
works of the Author's (or Author's Employer's) own, including books, lectures and presentations in all media, provided that the ACM citation, notice of the Copyright and the ACM DOI are included ...
- The right to revise the work.
What is a typical copyright notice for conferences you *do* publish in? What rights do you need?
In computer science, typically a journal publication arising in part from a conference paper would include new results, or several papers would be combined.
-Jodi
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak <darekj@alk.edu.pl > wrote:
> This is why conferences such as WikiSym are not very attractive for > my field, as they require some copyright transfer (which may effectively > make publishing in the final destination difficult). > >
--
dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak profesor zarządzania kierownik katedry Zarządzania Międzynarodowego i centrum badawczego CROW Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego http://www.crow.alk.edu.pl
Wiki-research-l mailing list Wiki-research-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
Wiki-research-l mailing list Wiki-research-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
Wiki-research-l mailing list Wiki-research-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
wiki-research-l@lists.wikimedia.org