people's gender. does knowing someone's
gender increase bias? My guess
based on the real life experiments is yes.
On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 1:23 PM, <koltzenburg(a)w4w.net> wrote:
when what is known? gender discrimination?
---------- Original Message -----------
From:Sam Katz <smkatz(a)gmail.com>
To:Research into Wikimedia content and communities
<wiki-research-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent:Sat, 7 Mar 2015 10:28:55 -0600
Subject:Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on gender
stats Re: Fwd: [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers
> does a wiki have single authorship (like the
> original britannica) or multiple authorship? does
> it value anonymity? is gender discrimination more
> likely when it is known?
>
> On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 1:32 AM,
> <koltzenburg(a)w4w.net> wrote:
> >> I would prefer we not track gender at all.
> >
> > why not for a wiki like Wikipedia?
> >
> > and, in your opinion, what exactly makes this wiki "a
ton harder" to deal
> > with?
> >
> > thanks,
> > Claudia
> >
> > ---------- Original Message -----------
> > From:Sam Katz <smkatz(a)gmail.com>
> > To:Research into Wikimedia content and communities
<wiki-research-
> > l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Sent:Fri, 6 Mar 2015 17:29:22 -0600
> > Subject:Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on gender
stats Re: Fwd:
> > [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers
> >
> >> It seems to me you are extrapolating from
> >> insufficient data. identity and presentation are
> >> not the same thing, but I guess the question in
> >> this context is "what is presentation in an online
> >> setting?" "how is gender shown in an online setting?"
> >>
> >> That's pretty easy in one sense, but then you have
> >> "in a wiki like wikipedia" and it's a ton harder.
> >>
> >> I would prefer we not track gender at all.
> >>
> >> --Sam
> >>
> >> On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 5:16 PM,
> >> <koltzenburg(a)w4w.net> wrote:
> >> > yes, I agree the point you raise is interesting
> >> >
> >> > in attacks, however, the perceived gender is probably
more
> >> > important than how the attacked user might identify
(or not)
> >> >
> >> > and again, this might be one of the reasons why people
> >> > identifying as female* tend to refrain from joining
surveys
> >> > and simply prefer not to be forced to say "who" they
"are" -
> >> > just like many others who do not identify as (e.g.,
> >> > heterosexual) males feel that online spaces get less
safe if
> >> > they say anything about their gender/s or sexual
> >> > identity/identities... how come?
> >> >
> >> > sometimes I think: if only more contemporaries in
hegemonic
> >> > positions would be willing to switch perspectives for a
> >> > minute or two, nonsensical statements like "less than
20%" -
> >> > posited as outcomes of "research" - could be done
away with,
> >> > I guess
> >> >
> >> > as for another attempt at switching one's
perspective, who
> >> > are those 80%? trans*, inter*, and male people? or fluid
> >> > identities, maybe?
> >> >
> >> > best, Claudia
> >> >
> >> > ---------- Original Message -----------
> >> > From:Sam Katz <smkatz(a)gmail.com>
> >> > To:kerry.raymond@gmail.com, Research into Wikimedia
content
> >> > and communities <wiki-research-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> >> > Sent:Fri, 6 Mar 2015 16:57:58 -0600
> >> > Subject:Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on gender
> >> > stats Re: Fwd: [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers
> >> >
> >> >> To those following:
> >> >> I think this is a valid question I am raising. The
> >> >> question of whether written communication has a
> >> >> different way of relating than oral, in the
> >> >> context of a wiki, which by definition is
> >> >> collaborative, tracks users but allows anonymous
> >> >> editing, is a valid question.
> >> >>
> >> >> Anonymity and pen names were first used often
> >> >> times by women.
> >> >>
> >> >> I will also note that in terms of interface biases,
> >> >> Facebook and other platforms (Acquia Commons)
> >> >> that use photos of their users as adornments, to
> >> >> show what users have posted do worse than
> >> >> wikipedia in terms of encouraging safety and
> >> >> courage ("be bold in editing") among their users.
> >> >>
> >> >> Clarifying what the question is in this thread is
> >> >> a good first step towards answering it. If I was
> >> >> confused, I stand corrected, but I believe this is
> >> >> an important discussion to have.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Kerry Raymond
> >> >> <kerry.raymond(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > Do you say that as a man or as a woman?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > As a woman, you are assumed to be male routinely
in real
> >> > life and online.
> >> >> > Many people make no effort whatsoever, letters
addressed
> >> > to "Dr Sir" etc.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Has it got better over the years? Yes, in my real
life,
> >> > it has got somewhat
> >> >> > better over the years. But getting involved in
Wikipedia
> >> > and its discussions
> >> >> > about gender is like being back in 1970s. "Do we
really
> >> > have a gender gap?"
> >> >> > "Does it matter if we have a gender gap?"
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Kerry
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >> > From: wiki-research-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> >> >> >
[mailto:wiki-research-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> >> > Behalf Of Sam Katz
> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, 7 March 2015 2:54 AM
> >> >> > To: Research into Wikimedia content and communities
> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on
gender
> >> > stats Re: Fwd:
> >> >> > [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers
> >> >> >
> >> >> > hey,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I just want to note that I am not convinced that
gender
> >> > expression
> >> >> > online or indeed expression in general is the same
as it
> >> > is in real
> >> >> > space. Granted, this may be stylistically what you are
> >> > trying to
> >> >> > prove. But I just wanted to add my two cents, that
> >> > indeed it may not
> >> >> > have a gender bias directly if the structure does not
> >> > impose it.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 9:08 AM, <koltzenburg(a)w4w.net>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> Hi Frances,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> your assumption (an "unknown" user in a
language
where
> >> >> >> personal nouns are gendered will always display the
> >> >> >> masculine form) is correct for deWP, I just tested it
> >> > from a
> >> >> >> new dummy account.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> you might call it a truly sytemic bias, and
especially so
> >> >> >> because community majority has not seen to
changing that
> >> >> >> space into gender friendly space for all, it seems.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> so this adds another item of disharmony to my
cautious note
> >> >> >> on gender stats
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> best,
> >> >> >> Claudia
> >> >> >> ---------- Original Message -----------
> >> >> >> From:Frances Hocutt <fhocutt(a)wikimedia.org>
> >> >> >> To:Research into Wikimedia content and communities
> >> >> >> <wiki-research-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> >> >> >> Sent:Thu, 5 Mar 2015 16:43:04 -0800
> >> >> >> Subject:Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on
gender
> >> >> >> stats Re: Fwd: [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:30 PM, Mark J. Nelson
> >> >> >>> <mjn(a)anadrome.org> wrote:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > Frances Hocutt <fhocutt(a)wikimedia.org>
writes:
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > > One change that could address the latter
incentive is
> >> >> >> to change the
> >> >> >>> > > defaults on MediaWiki so that masculine
grammatical
> >> >> >> gender is not the
> >> >> >>> > > default for new users. It could be randomly
assigned,
> >> >> >> and then some men
> >> >> >>> > as
> >> >> >>> > > well as some women would have the incentive
to set
> >> >> >> their gender
> >> >> >>> > preferences.
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > That's how it currently works, according to
the manual,
> >> >> >> with the default
> >> >> >>> > gender set to 'unknown':
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgDefaultUserOptions
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>> > I'm not sure if that's a recent change,
or
what's in
> >> >> >> effect on
> >> >> >>> > Wikimedia's own wikis, though.
> >> >> >>> >
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I'm aware that it defaults to "unknown".
My
> >> >> >>> understanding--and please correct me if I'm
wrong--
> >> >> >>> is that an "unknown" user in a language
where
> >> >> >>> personal nouns are gendered will always display
> >> >> >>> the masculine form (i.e. Usuario for a user of
> >> >> >>> unknown gender on es.wp). So, a male user doesn't
> >> >> >>> need to change his gender in preferences in order
> >> >> >>> to be described accurately where a female user
> >> >> >>> would need to set her gender in order to be
> >> >> >>> described as "Usuaria". Hence, different
> >> >> >>> incentives, and ones that could be addressed with
> >> >> >>> different default behavior for an "unknown"
user.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> -Frances
> >> >> >> ------- End of Original Message -------
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> Wiki-research-l mailing list
> >> >> >> Wiki-research-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> >> >> >>
> >> >
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> >> >> >
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> >> >
> >> >> >
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