I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/ project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the discussions and vote! * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_

* The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all the creative discussions that go on when so many international Wikimedians get together. If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively' Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL Thanks Fae Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+ https://telegram.me/wmlgbt On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra <gnangarra(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I beg to differ with Anders final comment; > >> >> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in >> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream >> (if >> it ever will be) > > > I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use

> neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one

> the key pillars of the community. We can and must do better to ensure > that > everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis. > > If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual > then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which

> best express our neutral position > > On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on >> the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the >> general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1] >> >> "* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but >> in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the >> French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have >> the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is >> the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I >> would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for >> all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non >> violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the >> French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk >> / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults >> and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat" >> >> It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying >> respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise, >> and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern >> language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting, >> keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can, >> even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers! >> >> The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last >> week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German >> Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment >> yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do >> include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a >> disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that >> even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful >> comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our >> civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3] >> >> P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using >> Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening >> for yahoo addresses to this list. >> >> Links >> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump# >> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages >> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL >> 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use >> >> Thanks, >> Fae >> >> On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard <anthere9(a)yahoo.com>

>> > A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin -

>> > change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for >> > participation to the month of Francophonie. >> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki: >> Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259 >> > >> > The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral >> > terminology. >> > >> > "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral >> "les >> > Wikimédiens". >> > >> > That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the >> term by >> > "nous" (we). Seems to settle things. >> > >> > Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the

>> > neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. >> > Alternatives >> > (such as the "we") are possible but not always. >> > >> > Florence >> > >> > >> > >> > Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit : >> >> >> >> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our

>> >> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn >> >> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to

>> >> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for >> >> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for >> >> journalists writing in English.[1] >> >> >> >> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know >> >> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. >> >> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and

>> >> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for

>> >> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors.

>> >> >> >> Links >> >> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> Fae >> >> Wikimedia LGBT+ >> >> >> >> On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso <hashar+wmf(a)free.fr> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit : >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm taking that further by >> >>>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies

>> >>>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he

>> >>>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely >> >>> confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from >> >>> Commons:FAQ >> >>> which roughly looks like: >> >>> >> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is >> >>> used. >> >>> >> >>> With the proposal to instead: >> >>> >> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used. >> >>> >> >>> Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a

>> >>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one >> >>> can >> >>> instead write: >> >>> >> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other

>> >>> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender

>> >>> >> >>> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une'

>> >>> What some are advocating is using: >> >>> >> >>> Un/une photographe >> >>> >> >>> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for >> >>> 'administrateur': >> >>> >> >>> Un/une adminstra-teur-trice >> >>> >> >>> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages >> >>> most >> >>> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!). >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Antoine "hashar" Musso >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/

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yes, i remember the meetup, where they created the manel article. there is a distinct lack of self-awareness in the community. On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Neotarf <neotarf(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Nicely done. If you want to tweak the language, I would suggest to > put the recommended usage first, then the suggested corrections, as it > sometimes confuses people to give them examples then say they are > examples of incorrect usage. Also it would be nice to explain things > in very plain language, so people don't have to look things up. For > example, Urban Dictionary tells me there are "10 kinds of people in > the world, those who understand 'binary' and those who don't." > > The enwiki RFC I think is confusing because it was rewritten to answer > objections of people who originally voted against it, but the rewrite > was not introduced as a new proposal, "option 2" or whatever. Perhaps > this was the best thing to do, but whoever closes the discussion may > not be able to tell what people are voting for. > > Originally I wondered if such a proposal was really necessary as we > have MOS:GNL. Editors often use WP:MOS as a convenience even if the > page they are working with does not have its own guidelines. But when > I looked at the policy page for the requested change, the first thing > I saw was a photograph of sixteen men, two of them smoking pipes, and > zero women, with the caption: "Talk page discussions are usually held > before substantive changes are made to policies."[1] IIRC this is > called a "manel". A quick check of the "manel" article reveals a big > orange template disputing notability at the top of the page, in spite > of ample citations from the usual RS.[2] > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_ > guidelines#Content > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manel_(term) > > > On 4/12/17, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/ > > project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its > > policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming > > environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the > > discussions and vote! > > > > * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_ > neutral_language > > * > > > > The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group > > taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all > > the creative discussions that go on when so many international > > Wikimedians get together. > > > > If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively' > > Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies, > > see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL > > > > Thanks > > Fae > > Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+ > > https://telegram.me/wmlgbt > > > > On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra <gnangarra(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> I beg to differ with Anders final comment; > >> > >>> > >>> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in > >>> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become > >>> mainstream > >>> (if > >>> it ever will be) > >> > >> > >> I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the > >> use > of > >> neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is > >> one > of > >> the key pillars of the community. We can and must do better to

> >> that > >> everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis. > >> > >> If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an > >> individual > >> then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which > can > >> best express our neutral position > >> > >> On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>> Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on > >>> the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in

> >>> general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1] > >>> > >>> "* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community,

> >>> in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the > >>> French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have > >>> the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is > >>> the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French".

> >>> would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual

> >>> all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non > >>> violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the > >>> French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on > >>> talk > >>> / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults > >>> and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat" > >>> > >>> It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying > >>> respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions

> >>> and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern > >>> language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting, > >>> keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we > >>> can, > >>> even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers! > >>> > >>> The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the

> >>> week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German > >>> Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment > >>> yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do > >>> include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a > >>> disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that > >>> even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful > >>> comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our > >>> civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3] > >>> > >>> P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using > >>> Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening > >>> for yahoo addresses to this list. > >>> > >>> Links > >>> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump# > >>> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages > >>> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL > >>> 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Fae > >>> > >>> On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard <anthere9(a)yahoo.com> > wrote: > >>> > A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin

> to > >>> > change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for > >>> > participation to the month of Francophonie. > >>> > > >>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki: > >>> Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259 > >>> > > >>> > The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language

> >>> > terminology. > >>> > > >>> > "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non > >>> > neutral > >>> "les > >>> > Wikimédiens". > >>> > > >>> > That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced > >>> > the > >>> term by > >>> > "nous" (we). Seems to settle things. > >>> > > >>> > Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the > gender > >>> > neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. > >>> > Alternatives > >>> > (such as the "we") are possible but not always. > >>> > > >>> > Florence > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit : > >>> >> > >>> >> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our > experienced > >>> >> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to > >>> >> turn > >>> >> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to > show > >>> >> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable > >>> >> for > >>> >> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard

> >>> >> journalists writing in English.[1] > >>> >> > >>> >> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't > >>> >> know > >>> >> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. > >>> >> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons,

> I'm > >>> >> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example

> our > >>> >> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all

> :-) > >>> >> > >>> >> Links > >>> >> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they > >>> >> > >>> >> Thanks > >>> >> Fae > >>> >> Wikimedia LGBT+ > >>> >> > >>> >> On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso <hashar+wmf(a)free.fr> > >>> >> wrote: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit : > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> I'm taking that further by > >>> >>>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our

> and > >>> >>>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using

> or > >>> >>>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form > >>> >>> definitely > >>> >>> confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from > >>> >>> Commons:FAQ > >>> >>> which roughly looks like: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is > >>> >>> used. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> With the proposal to instead: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is

> >>> >>> > >>> >>> Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a > neutral > >>> >>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg > >>> >>> one > >>> >>> can > >>> >>> instead write: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other > languages. > >>> >>> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender > less. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' > (feminine). > >>> >>> What some are advocating is using: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Un/une photographe > >>> >>> > >>> >>> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for > >>> >>> 'administrateur': > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Un/une adminstra-teur-trice > >>> >>> > >>> >>> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based > >>> >>> languages > >>> >>> most > >>> >>> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!). > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> -- > >>> >>> Antoine "hashar" Musso > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > >>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=

> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> faewik(a)gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae > >>> Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote. > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:

> >>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > >>> wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > >>> Unsubscribe: > >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=