I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/ project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the discussions and vote!
* https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_neutral_language *
The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all the creative discussions that go on when so many international Wikimedians get together.
If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively' Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
Thanks Fae Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+ https://telegram.me/wmlgbt
On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if it ever will be)
I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use of neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one of the key pillars of the community. We can and must do better to ensure that everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can best express our neutral position
On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
"* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise, and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting, keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can, even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening for yahoo addresses to this list.
Links
Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
Thanks, Fae
On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for participation to the month of Francophonie.
Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral terminology.
"les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
"les
Wikimédiens".
That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
term by
"nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
Florence
Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for journalists writing in English.[1]
Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
Links
Thanks Fae Wikimedia LGBT+
On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr wrote:
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
I'm taking that further by proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ which roughly looks like:
A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
With the proposal to instead:
A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a neutral pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can instead write:
A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages. For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine). What some are advocating is using:
Un/une photographe
If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
-- Antoine "hashar" Musso
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-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
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-- GN. President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
Nicely done. If you want to tweak the language, I would suggest to put the recommended usage first, then the suggested corrections, as it sometimes confuses people to give them examples then say they are examples of incorrect usage. Also it would be nice to explain things in very plain language, so people don't have to look things up. For example, Urban Dictionary tells me there are "10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand 'binary' and those who don't."
The enwiki RFC I think is confusing because it was rewritten to answer objections of people who originally voted against it, but the rewrite was not introduced as a new proposal, "option 2" or whatever. Perhaps this was the best thing to do, but whoever closes the discussion may not be able to tell what people are voting for.
Originally I wondered if such a proposal was really necessary as we have MOS:GNL. Editors often use WP:MOS as a convenience even if the page they are working with does not have its own guidelines. But when I looked at the policy page for the requested change, the first thing I saw was a photograph of sixteen men, two of them smoking pipes, and zero women, with the caption: "Talk page discussions are usually held before substantive changes are made to policies."[1] IIRC this is called a "manel". A quick check of the "manel" article reveals a big orange template disputing notability at the top of the page, in spite of ample citations from the usual RS.[2]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Content [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manel_(term)
On 4/12/17, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/ project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the discussions and vote!
The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all the creative discussions that go on when so many international Wikimedians get together.
If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively' Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
Thanks Fae Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+ https://telegram.me/wmlgbt
On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if it ever will be)
I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use of neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one of the key pillars of the community. We can and must do better to ensure that everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can best express our neutral position
On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
"* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise, and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting, keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can, even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening for yahoo addresses to this list.
Links
Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
Thanks, Fae
On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for participation to the month of Francophonie.
Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral terminology.
"les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
"les
Wikimédiens".
That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
term by
"nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
Florence
Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for journalists writing in English.[1]
Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
Links
Thanks Fae Wikimedia LGBT+
On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr wrote:
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit : > > I'm taking that further by > proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and > help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or > she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ which roughly looks like:
A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
With the proposal to instead:
A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a neutral pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can instead write:
A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages. For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine). What some are advocating is using:
Un/une photographe
If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
-- Antoine "hashar" Musso
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
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-- GN. President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
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yes, i remember the meetup, where they created the manel article. there is a distinct lack of self-awareness in the community.
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Nicely done. If you want to tweak the language, I would suggest to put the recommended usage first, then the suggested corrections, as it sometimes confuses people to give them examples then say they are examples of incorrect usage. Also it would be nice to explain things in very plain language, so people don't have to look things up. For example, Urban Dictionary tells me there are "10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand 'binary' and those who don't."
The enwiki RFC I think is confusing because it was rewritten to answer objections of people who originally voted against it, but the rewrite was not introduced as a new proposal, "option 2" or whatever. Perhaps this was the best thing to do, but whoever closes the discussion may not be able to tell what people are voting for.
Originally I wondered if such a proposal was really necessary as we have MOS:GNL. Editors often use WP:MOS as a convenience even if the page they are working with does not have its own guidelines. But when I looked at the policy page for the requested change, the first thing I saw was a photograph of sixteen men, two of them smoking pipes, and zero women, with the caption: "Talk page discussions are usually held before substantive changes are made to policies."[1] IIRC this is called a "manel". A quick check of the "manel" article reveals a big orange template disputing notability at the top of the page, in spite of ample citations from the usual RS.[2]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_ guidelines#Content [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manel_(term)
On 4/12/17, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/ project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the discussions and vote!
neutral_language
The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all the creative discussions that go on when so many international Wikimedians get together.
If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively' Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
Thanks Fae Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+ https://telegram.me/wmlgbt
On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if it ever will be)
I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use
of
neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one
of
the key pillars of the community. We can and must do better to ensure that everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which
can
best express our neutral position
On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
"* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise, and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting, keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can, even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening for yahoo addresses to this list.
Links
Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
Thanks, Fae
On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard anthere9@yahoo.com
wrote:
A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin -
to
change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for participation to the month of Francophonie.
Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral terminology.
"les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
"les
Wikimédiens".
That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
term by
"nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the
gender
neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
Florence
Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our
experienced
translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to
show
the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for journalists writing in English.[1]
Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and
I'm
hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for
our
fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors.
:-)
Links
Thanks Fae Wikimedia LGBT+
On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr wrote: > > Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit : >> >> I'm taking that further by >> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies
and
>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he
or
>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. > > > As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely > confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from > Commons:FAQ > which roughly looks like: > > A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is > used. > > With the proposal to instead: > > A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used. > > Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a
neutral
> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one > can > instead write: > > A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used. > > > That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other
languages.
> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender
less.
> > In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une'
(feminine).
> What some are advocating is using: > > Un/une photographe > > If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for > 'administrateur': > > Un/une adminstra-teur-trice > > That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages > most > probably have the same issue (blame Rome!). > > > -- > Antoine "hashar" Musso
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- GN. President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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Yes, the article was templated less than an hour after it was moved out from a user page. Looks like they removed 3 refs at the same time. At that point it had 6 refs, including WaPo and Foreign Policy, now it has 17, including BBC News, Guardian, Independent, NYT.
Adding templates seems to be automatic, but for what? No one seems to be monitoring them, or using them to track articles, but who has the authority to remove them when they are outdated? In this case it seems to be casting doubt on a solid article. The person who put it there is averaging an edit every two minutes, they have long moved on to something else.
The last time I got templated by a patroller, I convinced him to write his first article, lol, it was a decent article too, and he even joined my WikiProject.
On 4/12/17, J Hayes slowking4@gmail.com wrote:
yes, i remember the meetup, where they created the manel article. there is a distinct lack of self-awareness in the community.
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Nicely done. If you want to tweak the language, I would suggest to put the recommended usage first, then the suggested corrections, as it sometimes confuses people to give them examples then say they are examples of incorrect usage. Also it would be nice to explain things in very plain language, so people don't have to look things up. For example, Urban Dictionary tells me there are "10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand 'binary' and those who don't."
The enwiki RFC I think is confusing because it was rewritten to answer objections of people who originally voted against it, but the rewrite was not introduced as a new proposal, "option 2" or whatever. Perhaps this was the best thing to do, but whoever closes the discussion may not be able to tell what people are voting for.
Originally I wondered if such a proposal was really necessary as we have MOS:GNL. Editors often use WP:MOS as a convenience even if the page they are working with does not have its own guidelines. But when I looked at the policy page for the requested change, the first thing I saw was a photograph of sixteen men, two of them smoking pipes, and zero women, with the caption: "Talk page discussions are usually held before substantive changes are made to policies."[1] IIRC this is called a "manel". A quick check of the "manel" article reveals a big orange template disputing notability at the top of the page, in spite of ample citations from the usual RS.[2]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_ guidelines#Content [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manel_(term)
On 4/12/17, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/ project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the discussions and vote!
neutral_language
The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all the creative discussions that go on when so many international Wikimedians get together.
If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively' Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
Thanks Fae Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+ https://telegram.me/wmlgbt
On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if it ever will be)
I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use
of
neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one
of
the key pillars of the community. We can and must do better to ensure that everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which
can
best express our neutral position
On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
"* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise, and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting, keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can, even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening for yahoo addresses to this list.
Links
Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
Thanks, Fae
On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard anthere9@yahoo.com
wrote:
A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin -
to
change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for participation to the month of Francophonie.
Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral terminology.
"les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
"les
Wikimédiens".
That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
term by
"nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the
gender
neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
Florence
Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit : > > Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our
experienced
> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to > turn > to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to
show
> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable > for > many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for > journalists writing in English.[1] > > Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't > know > what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. > However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and
I'm
> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for
our
> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors.
:-)
> > Links > 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they > > Thanks > Fae > Wikimedia LGBT+ > > On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr > wrote: >> >> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit : >>> >>> I'm taking that further by >>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies
and
>>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he
or
>>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. >> >> >> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form >> definitely >> confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from >> Commons:FAQ >> which roughly looks like: >> >> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is >> used. >> >> With the proposal to instead: >> >> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used. >> >> Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a
neutral
>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg >> one >> can >> instead write: >> >> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used. >> >> >> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other
languages.
>> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender
less.
>> >> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une'
(feminine).
>> What some are advocating is using: >> >> Un/une photographe >> >> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for >> 'administrateur': >> >> Un/une adminstra-teur-trice >> >> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based >> languages >> most >> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!). >> >> >> -- >> Antoine "hashar" Musso > >
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that was a nice editathon - Council on Foreign Relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/DC/CFR
yes, the drive by tagging by patrollers is mainly useless if you used it as a process to add and remove tags is might work, but for now it is adversive backlog creating for gnomes
smallbones got chastised for removing an old tag, and now they have "instructions on removal"
that's very good i have not had any luck engaging partollers.
cheers
On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 2:21 PM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Yes, the article was templated less than an hour after it was moved out from a user page. Looks like they removed 3 refs at the same time. At that point it had 6 refs, including WaPo and Foreign Policy, now it has 17, including BBC News, Guardian, Independent, NYT.
Adding templates seems to be automatic, but for what? No one seems to be monitoring them, or using them to track articles, but who has the authority to remove them when they are outdated? In this case it seems to be casting doubt on a solid article. The person who put it there is averaging an edit every two minutes, they have long moved on to something else.
The last time I got templated by a patroller, I convinced him to write his first article, lol, it was a decent article too, and he even joined my WikiProject.
On 4/12/17, J Hayes slowking4@gmail.com wrote:
yes, i remember the meetup, where they created the manel article. there is a distinct lack of self-awareness in the community.
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Nicely done. If you want to tweak the language, I would suggest to put the recommended usage first, then the suggested corrections, as it sometimes confuses people to give them examples then say they are examples of incorrect usage. Also it would be nice to explain things in very plain language, so people don't have to look things up. For example, Urban Dictionary tells me there are "10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand 'binary' and those who don't."
The enwiki RFC I think is confusing because it was rewritten to answer objections of people who originally voted against it, but the rewrite was not introduced as a new proposal, "option 2" or whatever. Perhaps this was the best thing to do, but whoever closes the discussion may not be able to tell what people are voting for.
Originally I wondered if such a proposal was really necessary as we have MOS:GNL. Editors often use WP:MOS as a convenience even if the page they are working with does not have its own guidelines. But when I looked at the policy page for the requested change, the first thing I saw was a photograph of sixteen men, two of them smoking pipes, and zero women, with the caption: "Talk page discussions are usually held before substantive changes are made to policies."[1] IIRC this is called a "manel". A quick check of the "manel" article reveals a big orange template disputing notability at the top of the page, in spite of ample citations from the usual RS.[2]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_ guidelines#Content [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manel_(term)
On 4/12/17, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/ project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the discussions and vote!
neutral_language
The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all the creative discussions that go on when so many international Wikimedians get together.
If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively' Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
Thanks Fae Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+ https://telegram.me/wmlgbt
On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if it ever will be)
I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use
of
neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one
of
the key pillars of the community. We can and must do better to
ensure
that everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which
can
best express our neutral position
On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in
the
general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
"* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community,
but
in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French".
I
would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual
for
all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions
arise,
and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting, keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can, even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the
last
week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening for yahoo addresses to this list.
Links
Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
Thanks, Fae
On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard anthere9@yahoo.com
wrote:
> A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin
to
> change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for > participation to the month of Francophonie. > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki: Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259 > > The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language
neutral
> terminology. > > "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non > neutral "les > Wikimédiens". > > That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced > the term by > "nous" (we). Seems to settle things. > > Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the
gender
> neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. > Alternatives > (such as the "we") are possible but not always. > > Florence > > > > Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit : >> >> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our
experienced
>> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to >> turn >> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to
show
>> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable >> for >> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard
for
>> journalists writing in English.[1] >> >> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't >> know >> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. >> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons,
and
I'm
>> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example
for
our
>> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all
contributors.
:-)
>> >> Links >> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they >> >> Thanks >> Fae >> Wikimedia LGBT+ >> >> On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr >> wrote: >>> >>> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit : >>>> >>>> I'm taking that further by >>>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our
policies
and
>>>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using
"he
or
>>>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. >>> >>> >>> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form >>> definitely >>> confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from >>> Commons:FAQ >>> which roughly looks like: >>> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is >>> used. >>> >>> With the proposal to instead: >>> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is
used.
>>> >>> Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a
neutral
>>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg >>> one >>> can >>> instead write: >>> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used. >>> >>> >>> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other
languages.
>>> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender
less.
>>> >>> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une'
(feminine).
>>> What some are advocating is using: >>> >>> Un/une photographe >>> >>> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for >>> 'administrateur': >>> >>> Un/une adminstra-teur-trice >>> >>> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based >>> languages >>> most >>> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!). >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Antoine "hashar" Musso >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=
unsubscribe>
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
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-- GN. President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
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