It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if 85% of its editors were female?
regards
Rosie Williams
@collectiveact
It depends. I don't think you can generalise and say that gender is the distinction here; rather, it's a distinction of interests and norms. I recommend http://www.mindspillage.org/wiki/Women_on_Wikipedia as a good read. " the culture is not biased against women, but rather biased toward certain traits and against others--and that generally men are more likely to be in the group whose characteristics are more accepted"; in other words, we could have an identical culture if 85 percent of the editors were female, they'd just be a very specific subset of women.
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Collective Action < collective_action@hotmail.com> wrote:
It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if 85% of its editors were female?
regards Rosie Williams http://women4wikipedia @collectiveact
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if 85% of its editors were female?
regards
Rosie Williams
@collectiveact
It would be pretty awful. Scenes like that are not welcoming.
Fred
Fred r u being funny or serious - I can't tell.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 17, 2011, at 7:39 PM, "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if 85% of its editors were female?
regards
Rosie Williams
@collectiveact
It would be pretty awful. Scenes like that are not welcoming.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
sounded serious.
And seriously: being a man under female supprression is not an appealing vision, very much like being a woman suppressed by males.
as long as all men will assume that feminism is about revenge rather than equality, visions of a female dominated <something> will feel scary.
Poor guy, i'd say.
hase
Well I find that statement a bit inappropriate for a gender gap list, considering that i find the problem quite serious. And if men think that equality is about revenge, then I would say their falling into a cliche that has been used for years to discredit feminism.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 18, 2011, at 2:33 AM, Hartmut Semken hase@hase.net wrote:
sounded serious.
And seriously: being a man under female supprression is not an appealing vision, very much like being a woman suppressed by males.
as long as all men will assume that feminism is about revenge rather than equality, visions of a female dominated <something> will feel scary.
Poor guy, i'd say.
hase
-- H. Semken
Am 18.02.2011 um 04:40 schrieb Sandra sandratordonez@gmail.com:
Fred r u being funny or serious - I can't tell.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 17, 2011, at 7:39 PM, "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if 85% of its editors were female?
regards
Rosie Williams
@collectiveact
It would be pretty awful. Scenes like that are not welcoming.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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Could we maybe not make big overgeneralisations about what "men" think and return to the topic at hand? This mailing list shouldn't be about discrediting the intentions of feminists. Neither should it be about discrediting the intentions of men, or working on the assumption that somebody can't be both.
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Sandra sandratordonez@gmail.com wrote:
Well I find that statement a bit inappropriate for a gender gap list, considering that i find the problem quite serious. And if men think that equality is about revenge, then I would say their falling into a cliche that has been used for years to discredit feminism.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 18, 2011, at 2:33 AM, Hartmut Semken hase@hase.net wrote:
sounded serious.
And seriously: being a man under female supprression is not an appealing
vision, very much like being a woman suppressed by males.
as long as all men will assume that feminism is about revenge rather than
equality, visions of a female dominated <something> will feel scary.
Poor guy, i'd say.
hase
-- H. Semken
Am 18.02.2011 um 04:40 schrieb Sandra sandratordonez@gmail.com:
Fred r u being funny or serious - I can't tell.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 17, 2011, at 7:39 PM, "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net
wrote:
It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if 85%
of
its editors were female?
regards
Rosie Williams
@collectiveact
It would be pretty awful. Scenes like that are not welcoming.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
......Umm, you are right. I just asked if this statement was serious or not, and i got a long email back stating that feminism shouldn't be about revenge. ...
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Oliver Keyes scire.facias@gmail.comwrote:
Could we maybe not make big overgeneralisations about what "men" think and return to the topic at hand? This mailing list shouldn't be about discrediting the intentions of feminists. Neither should it be about discrediting the intentions of men, or working on the assumption that somebody can't be both.
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Sandra sandratordonez@gmail.com wrote:
Well I find that statement a bit inappropriate for a gender gap list, considering that i find the problem quite serious. And if men think that equality is about revenge, then I would say their falling into a cliche that has been used for years to discredit feminism.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 18, 2011, at 2:33 AM, Hartmut Semken hase@hase.net wrote:
sounded serious.
And seriously: being a man under female supprression is not an appealing
vision, very much like being a woman suppressed by males.
as long as all men will assume that feminism is about revenge rather
than equality, visions of a female dominated <something> will feel scary.
Poor guy, i'd say.
hase
-- H. Semken
Am 18.02.2011 um 04:40 schrieb Sandra sandratordonez@gmail.com:
Fred r u being funny or serious - I can't tell.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 17, 2011, at 7:39 PM, "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net
wrote:
It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if 85%
of
its editors were female?
regards
Rosie Williams
@collectiveact
It would be pretty awful. Scenes like that are not welcoming.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Well I find that statement a bit inappropriate for a gender gap list, considering that i find the problem quite serious. And if men think that equality is about revenge, then I would say their falling into a cliche that has been used for years to discredit feminism.
You're expressing your own feelings here rather than mine. But that too is relevant. All I said was that a skewed demographic is troublesome. Generalizing from me to "men" is not rational.
And I can see ahead to the next "move". "Men say women are not rational". However, we're not here to play a game, at least not when we focus on the problem we're attempting to address.
Fred
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 18, 2011, at 2:33 AM, Hartmut Semken hase@hase.net wrote:
sounded serious.
And seriously: being a man under female supprression is not an appealing vision, very much like being a woman suppressed by males.
as long as all men will assume that feminism is about revenge rather than equality, visions of a female dominated <something> will feel scary.
Poor guy, i'd say.
hase
-- H. Semken
Am 18.02.2011 um 04:40 schrieb Sandra sandratordonez@gmail.com:
Fred r u being funny or serious - I can't tell.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 17, 2011, at 7:39 PM, "Fred Bauder" fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if 85% of its editors were female?
regards
Rosie Williams
@collectiveact
It would be pretty awful. Scenes like that are not welcoming.
Fred
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Am 18.02.11 14:09, schrieb Sandra:
Well I find that statement a bit inappropriate for a gender gap list, considering that i find the problem quite serious.
Indeed, it is. And still: men do have the feeling that feminists are out for revenge rather than equality. This is not a statement to discredit feminism as you want to make it, it is a descripion of a very common feeling.
The problem is very simple: feelings are not about facts - or rarely are. Whether a feminist actually /is/ seeking revenge was not part of the satement at all, btw.
Thank you for falling intot that trap so quickly.
I am involvedin the discussion in other places as well. And I do have a few frieds that are like me: hetero males that are feminists; or at least something very close to that: "equalitists" maybe. And in the vicinity of this group exists quite a few men that are scared shitless by women in general. They "make up" for this with all kinds of behaviour: machismo, chauvinism and so on.
The ideal of equality is currently under much stress. Older, mostly patriachic ideals are re-surfacing, at least here in Germany. Interestingly, many young women find the "wife and mother" lifestyle very appealing again and seem to be more than willing to trade submissivness for security.
What a step back that is...
Still, I feel pity for the guy that made me respond: him being scared of a vision of 85% editors of wikipedia being female can only create that reaction in me.
If you find that inappropriate as you said: sorry, I can not help that at all.
hase
----- Original Message ----
From: "Hartmut "hase" Semken" hase@hase.net To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Fri, February 18, 2011 1:08:50 PM Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Women4Wikipedia
Am 18.02.11 14:09, schrieb Sandra:
Well I find that statement a bit inappropriate for a gender gap list,
considering that i find the problem quite serious.
Indeed, it is. And still: men do have the feeling that feminists are out for revenge rather than equality. This is not a statement to discredit feminism as you want to make it, it is a descripion of a very common feeling.
The problem is very simple: feelings are not about facts - or rarely are. Whether a feminist actually /is/ seeking revenge was not part of the satement at all, btw.
I do not think it is so simple to separate feelings from facts as you suggest. Feelings, in the sense you invoke, are no more than reactions to our thoughts.
From Descartes, you might realize that there is a valid viewpoint that our
experiences are the *only* things that we can depend on being real. Facts may be important to physics, but physics can only important because of what humans think and feel about it.
(Unless of course you are trying to imagine the world from non-human-centric veiwpoint. Which is an interesting exercise, but I think not very relevant.)
I am not sure if this email will make much sense to anyone so let me try a different explanation. Validation is vastly important to inspiring humans to act. Facts are rather irrelevant, however dependable and universal they might be. It is a fact the you must consume less calories than you burn to lose weight. But humans, who are aware this fact, universally have difficulty acting in line with it whenever it more convenient for them to consume a larger number of calories than not. Humans are not fact machines, but rather feeling machines. Are you trying to move boulders or humans? Facts will be more relevant to the former task, feelings to the latter.
Birgitte SB
Interesting point of view. In fact :-) I think that's one difference between men and women. Many women manage emotions better than many men. And many men just get rid of emotions to make things easier for them. That's the way the world goes round. And this makes me wonder the following:
Are we all aware that this mailing list should not be subject to any ideology? Maybe there are people here (and mostly out there) who think that altruism (sacrifice of some people for the benefit of others) is the best option to take actions in Wikipedia, and maybe there are also people who think that egoism is the best choice, that is, that every relevant opinion (mostly from renowned people, mostly from people who think like them) is important and has to be taken into account for every action taken, discarding the non relevant ones. This approach, if exists, would be wrong, since rational egoism seeks individual interest but never in the detriment of the interest of others (that's the great fault of capitalism, it doesn't take into account human nature with the complexity that it should be taken with; it's as naive as self-interest). In a nutshell, I'm talking about democracy versus consensus. For me and for many people like me it's obvious: democracy is the best choice, specially in this issue. But I'm not so sure if that's the opinion of most people here. For example, Jimmy Wales is, as I have read, a follower of objectivism and pure capitalism, that is, rational egoism. It's clear that this world (the planet Earth) has a wider range of points of view, and that there's also people who think that relevance is subjective, and that the most objective method to take actions involving Wikipedia (understood as the sum of all chapters) is democracy, since it's almost impossible to reach a real consensus with a global scope and with a so small group of people as a reference.
Depending on the point of view adopted, the actions would be different:
1) Followers of egoism would take all the opinions which seem relevant in this list (mostly from renowned people) and apply them.
2) Followers of pure altruism would take *all* the opinions and use them in a rigorous opinion poll, later adjusting the results to the gender gap to level the importance of men's and women's opinions, and apply the results.
3) Followers of an intermediate solution, would take all the opinions which seem relevant and also many opinions which don't seem relevant but could be decissive for the future of Wikipedia, and use them in a rigorous opinion poll, later adjusting the results to the gender gap to level the importance of men's and women's opinions, and apply the results.
Are we all aware that maybe people in charge (the Wikimedia staff) could take actions which are not the way that a significant part of the Wikipedia community is expecting?
I think it's fundamental to know this before anything, since Wikipedia, like it or not, is a *collaborative* project, not an *individualistic* project. This kind of considerations are not trivial, as we are constructing a type of decissions which are new in the history of mankind (and womenkind ;-)), since, as far as I know, there never was such a project as Wikipedia before.
My personal conclusion is that we shouldn't lose what made Wikipedia be what it is: a collaborative and decentralized project, and my personal choice is (3). Let's see what people think (spread the word outside this list).
Best,
Miguel Ángel
----- Original Message ----
From: "Hartmut "hase" Semken" hase@hase.net To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Fri, February 18, 2011 1:08:50 PM Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Women4Wikipedia
Am 18.02.11 14:09, schrieb Sandra:
Well I find that statement a bit inappropriate for a gender gap list,
considering that i find the problem quite serious.
Indeed, it is. And still: men do have the feeling that feminists are out for revenge rather than equality. This is not a statement to discredit feminism as you want to make it, it is a descripion of a very common feeling.
The problem is very simple: feelings are not about facts - or rarely are. Whether a feminist actually /is/ seeking revenge was not part of the satement at all, btw.
I do not think it is so simple to separate feelings from facts as you suggest. Feelings, in the sense you invoke, are no more than reactions to our thoughts. From Descartes, you might realize that there is a valid viewpoint that our experiences are the *only* things that we can depend on being real. Facts may be important to physics, but physics can only important because of what humans think and feel about it.
(Unless of course you are trying to imagine the world from non-human-centric veiwpoint. Which is an interesting exercise, but I think not very relevant.)
I am not sure if this email will make much sense to anyone so let me try a different explanation. Validation is vastly important to inspiring humans to act. Facts are rather irrelevant, however dependable and universal they might be. It is a fact the you must consume less calories than you burn to lose weight. But humans, who are aware this fact, universally have difficulty acting in line with it whenever it more convenient for them to consume a larger number of calories than not. Humans are not fact machines, but rather feeling machines. Are you trying to move boulders or humans? Facts will be more relevant to the former task, feelings to the latter.
Birgitte SB
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
It has occurred to me to wonder what Wikipedia would look like if 85% of its editors were female?
I have some thoughts related to this which I would rather save for a future post.
Daniel Case