Hello
Just a quick word to say that I really appreciated your (2) emails about Solutions. Whilst I agree that issues you raise are not directly related to the "gendergap", I do not think we should aim necessarily in finding solutions to address the women issue, but rather aim at identifying what would facilitate participation and help where we can.
Do not get boggued down by rather critical comments or limited comments from members of this list. What you suggest could have significant social impacts within our community, and we should always be careful to avoid breaking what basically works. It is normal that people be hesitant and it will take a long time and many many many discussions before some of your suggestions are implemented and go live. But if it goes in the right direction, there is no hurry. We have been there for already 10 years and we plan to be there for many years to come. There is nothing urgent. Time is the essence :)
Anthere
On 2/9/11 8:17 PM, Brandon Harris wrote:
As promised, here is a mail in which I talk about possible directions. A lot of this has to do with the discussion system that is used by Wikipedia.
It is abundantly clear that Talk pages are a plague upon all the houses. They are intensely difficult to use and understand. They are *incredibly* difficult for new users to understand and navigate for many reasons (which I can elaborate on, but I'll assume we all know what they are).
So let's get rid of them. Let's move to a modern discussion system (which is the promise of LiquidThreads) - one that users are likely to be more familiar with, one that is easier to use, and one that encourages several principles.
- Identity Emphasis
It is a known problem that Talk pages do not engender (hah!) identity. In fact, the only notification that a comment exists from a different user is an indent and (possibly) a signature. To a new user, however, that doesn't help much. In fact, we've seen time and time again that newbies have difficulty distinguishing "that one guy was a jerk to me" versus "Wikipedia was a jerk to me."
I should be clear that I'm not talking about "real" identification (e.g., "Brandon Harris" vs. "Jorm") but rather the ability for a new user to easily connect all of Jorm's comments together.
There are several small things that we can do to make this better which will have a larger benefit than their sum.
First, research has shown that people are far less likely to provide hostile or negative responses *if they believe they are talking to another person* and *if they do not feel anonymous*.
Accordingly, attaching a sense of identity to both the poster and the replier can help to alleviate this. One common way to do this is the inclusion of avatars to discussion posts.
By encouraging communication between individuals we will go a long way towards creating a social structure that can build grass-roots style.
- Positive Feedback Systems
As a culture, Wikipedia has developed several mechanisms to indicate displeasure with an individual's activities. However, we have next to no methods for telling someone that they have done a good job, or "thanks for the comment". Sure, we have barnstars, but they are a non-standard feedback mechanism and likely to be confusing to new users.
A simple "thanks" button, or "this was helpful" mechanism can go a long way towards solving for that. Promoting helpfulness will make being helpful a desirable trait and will go a long way towards alleviating "newbie bite."
- Newbie Protection Mechanisms
A sad truth is that there are many people on Wikipedia who are jerks or trolls. Experienced users know to avoid such people but new users are thrown into the gladatorial arena without protection.
A system where low-value contributors (trolls) can be flagged or "downvoted" can go a long way towards addressing this. In LiquidThreads, unhelpful comments could be automatically "collapsed" and de-emphasized.
That leads me to. . .
- Reputation Systems
A reputation system is a form of soft "social currency." Helpful individuals (those with high "helpful" marks) are called out and those with low-value are de-emphasized. New users would be able to recognize individuals that the community has determined to be high-value. This helps to encourage trust, which promotes community health and vibrancy.
I have a lot of other things I've been looking at but I think this is a sufficient launch point for now.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
I just wanted to add that I totally agree with Anthere :) She speaks with wisdom and experience! I also really appreciate your thoughtfulness, Brandon, and list of ideas, and I am glad that you and many others are working on this.
And for everyone else, yes, let's think about increasing participation as well. And I have a general question: even if you are here with a bad experience you still were a participant at one point, so what got you there? What made you want to join in the first place? What are the good aspects of the project -- not in theory, but in reality, that we can build on?
Phoebe
On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 3:15 AM, Florence Devouard anthere@anthere.org wrote:
Hello
Just a quick word to say that I really appreciated your (2) emails about Solutions. Whilst I agree that issues you raise are not directly related to the "gendergap", I do not think we should aim necessarily in finding solutions to address the women issue, but rather aim at identifying what would facilitate participation and help where we can.
Do not get boggued down by rather critical comments or limited comments from members of this list. What you suggest could have significant social impacts within our community, and we should always be careful to avoid breaking what basically works. It is normal that people be hesitant and it will take a long time and many many many discussions before some of your suggestions are implemented and go live. But if it goes in the right direction, there is no hurry. We have been there for already 10 years and we plan to be there for many years to come. There is nothing urgent. Time is the essence :)
Anthere
On 2/9/11 8:17 PM, Brandon Harris wrote:
As promised, here is a mail in which I talk about possible directions. A lot of this has to do with the discussion system that is used by Wikipedia.
It is abundantly clear that Talk pages are a plague upon all the houses. They are intensely difficult to use and understand. They are *incredibly* difficult for new users to understand and navigate for many reasons (which I can elaborate on, but I'll assume we all know what they are).
So let's get rid of them. Let's move to a modern discussion system (which is the promise of LiquidThreads) - one that users are likely to be more familiar with, one that is easier to use, and one that encourages several principles.
* Identity Emphasis
It is a known problem that Talk pages do not engender (hah!) identity. In fact, the only notification that a comment exists from a different user is an indent and (possibly) a signature. To a new user, however, that doesn't help much. In fact, we've seen time and time again that newbies have difficulty distinguishing "that one guy was a jerk to me" versus "Wikipedia was a jerk to me."
I should be clear that I'm not talking about "real" identification (e.g., "Brandon Harris" vs. "Jorm") but rather the ability for a new user to easily connect all of Jorm's comments together.
There are several small things that we can do to make this better which will have a larger benefit than their sum.
First, research has shown that people are far less likely to provide hostile or negative responses *if they believe they are talking to another person* and *if they do not feel anonymous*.
Accordingly, attaching a sense of identity to both the poster and the replier can help to alleviate this. One common way to do this is the inclusion of avatars to discussion posts.
By encouraging communication between individuals we will go a long way towards creating a social structure that can build grass-roots style.
* Positive Feedback Systems
As a culture, Wikipedia has developed several mechanisms to indicate displeasure with an individual's activities. However, we have next to no methods for telling someone that they have done a good job, or "thanks for the comment". Sure, we have barnstars, but they are a non-standard feedback mechanism and likely to be confusing to new users.
A simple "thanks" button, or "this was helpful" mechanism can go a long way towards solving for that. Promoting helpfulness will make being helpful a desirable trait and will go a long way towards alleviating "newbie bite."
* Newbie Protection Mechanisms
A sad truth is that there are many people on Wikipedia who are jerks or trolls. Experienced users know to avoid such people but new users are thrown into the gladatorial arena without protection.
A system where low-value contributors (trolls) can be flagged or "downvoted" can go a long way towards addressing this. In LiquidThreads, unhelpful comments could be automatically "collapsed" and de-emphasized.
That leads me to. . .
* Reputation Systems
A reputation system is a form of soft "social currency." Helpful individuals (those with high "helpful" marks) are called out and those with low-value are de-emphasized. New users would be able to recognize individuals that the community has determined to be high-value. This helps to encourage trust, which promotes community health and vibrancy.
I have a lot of other things I've been looking at but I think this is a sufficient launch point for now.
_______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap