http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/craigslist-founder-donates-500k-to-curb-wikip...
Wow! When I think of the 2 plus hrs a week x 385 odd weeks of hours I spent dealing with guys who just didn't like the idea that a "female" dared to edit - or worse, change their edit - I still tear my hair out.
I just hope it helps!!
I'd like to go back in a few years when hopefully have accomplished other goals. Or ENCOURAGE women to edit, as opposed to now having to warn them all the time about what they have to do to edit safely!
CM
I find it depressing that the only actually *planned* way that this money is going be spent is on developing reports and tools to hunt down apparent harassers so that they can be blocked. Meh.
For those of us that have experienced obsessive harassment, we know that this is not a cure. When the harassment continues off-wiki, sometimes for years, the only advice from the WMF or on-wiki groups is for the *victim* to vanish, meaning that those that were outed have to close down their Facebook, LinkedIn, etc. accounts with all the associated damage that comes with being forced to take a paranoid path; not even mentioning how the rest of the Wiki-community is affected by seeing how trolling does not stop until the target vanishes or goes in to hiding for a few years. A better use of this money would be to try new methods of engaging with the apparent harasser and consider ways of encouraging them to change their behaviour.
I doubt that many of the trolls that post misogynistic, racist or homophobic rubbish believe in these views, they are seeking attention, for personal reasons they may not even understand themselves. An approach to harassment that offers experienced counselling and support to both victim and attacker has a much better chance of being both an effective and long-term solution.
Based on the related email discussion, the WMF seem to think that long-term solutions are a community problem, so that's not something they have any plans to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on. I'd much rather see the smaller part of the money spent on more software development, and the majority spent setting up support services that handle alleged harassment in a more mature way, even if the people who are doing the real support work end up being us volunteers.
Fae
On 27 January 2017 at 20:16, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/craigslist-founder-donates-500k-to-curb-wikip...
Wow! When I think of the 2 plus hrs a week x 385 odd weeks of hours I spent dealing with guys who just didn't like the idea that a "female" dared to edit - or worse, change their edit - I still tear my hair out.
I just hope it helps!!
I'd like to go back in a few years when hopefully have accomplished other goals. Or ENCOURAGE women to edit, as opposed to now having to warn them all the time about what they have to do to edit safely!
CM
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Fae I'm sorry but that is not true.
We've said so in many places and by different people, it is a social problem and we will need to tackle it as such. Hence some of the work being done.
But yes, before tackling that part, we aim to provide a set of tools that will make day-to-day management easier and more efficient. Because if we want to be able to tackle the social issue, we must make sure the "technical" part is handled and efficient.
I paste here part of Patrick's email on the topic, 2 out of 4 areas aren't tech. And those are first steps:
- Better blocking tools and detection - the Wikimedia community works hard on the front lines keeping our users safe from harassment, through monitoring noticeboards and recent changes for problems, investigating “sock” accounts used to abuse contributors, and placing blocks on problematic users. Improvements to blocking tools, and the ability to detect harassing comments sooner can empower contributors to be more effective at these tasks.
- Reporting and evaluation tools - The current systems for reporting harassment are overburdened and can be unclear to users, and there are limited tools that admins and stewards can use to evaluate the cases and make good decisions. New tools, developed in collaboration with functionaries and communities, can improve the experience of reporting, investigating and managing harassment cases.
- Training for better handling of both in-person and online harassment - Better training can give contributors the tools and skills to handle harassment situations quickly and empathetically, document cases, and provide good advice to targets of harassment.
- Policy and enforcement - Wikimedia communities have developed a variety of processes, policies, and approaches to dealing with behavioural problems. As a movement, we need to identify which are working well, and share those successes. We also need to identify where our approaches are not working well, identify the problems, and try new solutions based on research and data.
(for reference his full email : https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-December/085668.html)
Christophe HENNER Chair of the board of trustees chenner@wikimedia.org +33650664739
twitter *@schiste* skype *christophe_henner*
On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
I find it depressing that the only actually *planned* way that this money is going be spent is on developing reports and tools to hunt down apparent harassers so that they can be blocked. Meh.
For those of us that have experienced obsessive harassment, we know that this is not a cure. When the harassment continues off-wiki, sometimes for years, the only advice from the WMF or on-wiki groups is for the *victim* to vanish, meaning that those that were outed have to close down their Facebook, LinkedIn, etc. accounts with all the associated damage that comes with being forced to take a paranoid path; not even mentioning how the rest of the Wiki-community is affected by seeing how trolling does not stop until the target vanishes or goes in to hiding for a few years. A better use of this money would be to try new methods of engaging with the apparent harasser and consider ways of encouraging them to change their behaviour.
I doubt that many of the trolls that post misogynistic, racist or homophobic rubbish believe in these views, they are seeking attention, for personal reasons they may not even understand themselves. An approach to harassment that offers experienced counselling and support to both victim and attacker has a much better chance of being both an effective and long-term solution.
Based on the related email discussion, the WMF seem to think that long-term solutions are a community problem, so that's not something they have any plans to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on. I'd much rather see the smaller part of the money spent on more software development, and the majority spent setting up support services that handle alleged harassment in a more mature way, even if the people who are doing the real support work end up being us volunteers.
Fae
On 27 January 2017 at 20:16, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/craigslist-founder-donates-500k-to-curb-
wikipedia-trolls-1.3259781
Wow! When I think of the 2 plus hrs a week x 385 odd weeks of hours I
spent
dealing with guys who just didn't like the idea that a "female" dared to edit - or worse, change their edit - I still tear my hair out.
I just hope it helps!!
I'd like to go back in a few years when hopefully have accomplished other goals. Or ENCOURAGE women to edit, as opposed to now having to warn them
all
the time about what they have to do to edit safely!
CM
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Thanks for the reply Christophe, I appreciate you posting to this list and being interested in following community views.
Two points on this: * Can you tell us how much of the $500k will be spent developing software tools (which have been stated as having the objective of blocking more accounts) and how much of the remainder will be spent on better training and support of volunteers who have roles in handling harassment events? * My statement that none of the $500k is planned to be spent on approaching and supporting harassers so that they can recognise and change their behaviour appears to be supported, based on the text you have cut & paste into your email. This was the thrust of my email. If it's not true, can you link to some evidence of a different plan or strategy for spending this grant that targets longer term support of the alleged harassers beyond blocking their accounts?
Thanks, Fae
On 7 February 2017 at 10:31, Christophe Henner chenner@wikimedia.org wrote:
Fae I'm sorry but that is not true.
We've said so in many places and by different people, it is a social problem and we will need to tackle it as such. Hence some of the work being done.
But yes, before tackling that part, we aim to provide a set of tools that will make day-to-day management easier and more efficient. Because if we want to be able to tackle the social issue, we must make sure the "technical" part is handled and efficient.
I paste here part of Patrick's email on the topic, 2 out of 4 areas aren't tech. And those are first steps:
- Better blocking tools and detection - the Wikimedia community works
hard on the front lines keeping our users safe from harassment, through monitoring noticeboards and recent changes for problems, investigating “sock” accounts used to abuse contributors, and placing blocks on problematic users. Improvements to blocking tools, and the ability to detect harassing comments sooner can empower contributors to be more effective at these tasks.
- Reporting and evaluation tools - The current systems for reporting
harassment are overburdened and can be unclear to users, and there are limited tools that admins and stewards can use to evaluate the cases and make good decisions. New tools, developed in collaboration with functionaries and communities, can improve the experience of reporting, investigating and managing harassment cases.
- Training for better handling of both in-person and online harassment -
Better training can give contributors the tools and skills to handle harassment situations quickly and empathetically, document cases, and provide good advice to targets of harassment.
- Policy and enforcement - Wikimedia communities have developed a
variety of processes, policies, and approaches to dealing with behavioural problems. As a movement, we need to identify which are working well, and share those successes. We also need to identify where our approaches are not working well, identify the problems, and try new solutions based on research and data.
(for reference his full email : https://lists.wikimedia.org/ pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-December/085668.html)
Christophe HENNER Chair of the board of trustees chenner@wikimedia.org +33650664739 <+33%206%2050%2066%2047%2039>
twitter *@schiste* skype *christophe_henner*
On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
I find it depressing that the only actually *planned* way that this money is going be spent is on developing reports and tools to hunt down apparent harassers so that they can be blocked. Meh.
For those of us that have experienced obsessive harassment, we know that this is not a cure. When the harassment continues off-wiki, sometimes for years, the only advice from the WMF or on-wiki groups is for the *victim* to vanish, meaning that those that were outed have to close down their Facebook, LinkedIn, etc. accounts with all the associated damage that comes with being forced to take a paranoid path; not even mentioning how the rest of the Wiki-community is affected by seeing how trolling does not stop until the target vanishes or goes in to hiding for a few years. A better use of this money would be to try new methods of engaging with the apparent harasser and consider ways of encouraging them to change their behaviour.
I doubt that many of the trolls that post misogynistic, racist or homophobic rubbish believe in these views, they are seeking attention, for personal reasons they may not even understand themselves. An approach to harassment that offers experienced counselling and support to both victim and attacker has a much better chance of being both an effective and long-term solution.
Based on the related email discussion, the WMF seem to think that long-term solutions are a community problem, so that's not something they have any plans to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on. I'd much rather see the smaller part of the money spent on more software development, and the majority spent setting up support services that handle alleged harassment in a more mature way, even if the people who are doing the real support work end up being us volunteers.
Fae
On 27 January 2017 at 20:16, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
500k-to-curb-wikipedia-trolls-1.3259781
Wow! When I think of the 2 plus hrs a week x 385 odd weeks of hours I
spent
dealing with guys who just didn't like the idea that a "female" dared to edit - or worse, change their edit - I still tear my hair out.
I just hope it helps!!
I'd like to go back in a few years when hopefully have accomplished
other
goals. Or ENCOURAGE women to edit, as opposed to now having to warn
them all
the time about what they have to do to edit safely!
CM
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Hopefully having a metric will make it easier to stop obvious harassment within Wikipedia. I complained for a year to several admins and in at least one ANI on a related topic about the one male ideologue who followed me to many and then eventually most articles to criticize, insult and revert me. But it wasn't til a male editor noticed and complained to ANI about an obviously biased revert being part of a pattern of his harassing me that an admin - and eventually Arbitators- finally sanctioned him with one way interaction band.
I agree defacto therapy is a good way to deal with guys who psychologically can't handle having women criticizing and reverting them. It won't stop committed ideologues like the above, but at least it will slow them down and discourage them.
As for the offline harassers, I had my problems in 2011 when Wikimedia Foundation was pretty slow to respond even though they'd dealt with aserial harasser of men and women who was kicked off wikipedia years go. He just decided to pick on me over some issue he disagreed with, including a 1000 odd death threats delivered via email through the wikifoundation email system. It took several months after my complaints to them before it stopped and I don't know if foundation stopped it. A year or so later I got a short string of threats. (Since he was on other side of country and known for this I didn't contact police cause who needs feds rummaging around their computer? If he was in neighborhood I might have.)
Re: other harassment in multiple forums. One thing they could use the money for is a couple internet detectives who could identify the harasser's various handles and get them kicked off forums where they are harassing (twitter/FB/etc.). Even get them kicked off their internet provider if possible. Of course, there'd have to be some adjustment of the outing policy. Like, it's OK for the foundation to do it if it's a serious problem? Or is that the policy now?
CM
On 2/7/2017 5:09 AM, Fæ wrote:
I find it depressing that the only actually *planned* way that this money is going be spent is on developing reports and tools to hunt down apparent harassers so that they can be blocked. Meh.
For those of us that have experienced obsessive harassment, we know that this is not a cure. When the harassment continues off-wiki, sometimes for years, the only advice from the WMF or on-wiki groups is for the *victim* to vanish, meaning that those that were outed have to close down their Facebook, LinkedIn, etc. accounts with all the associated damage that comes with being forced to take a paranoid path; not even mentioning how the rest of the Wiki-community is affected by seeing how trolling does not stop until the target vanishes or goes in to hiding for a few years. A better use of this money would be to try new methods of engaging with the apparent harasser and consider ways of encouraging them to change their behaviour.
I doubt that many of the trolls that post misogynistic, racist or homophobic rubbish believe in these views, they are seeking attention, for personal reasons they may not even understand themselves. An approach to harassment that offers experienced counselling and support to both victim and attacker has a much better chance of being both an effective and long-term solution.
Based on the related email discussion, the WMF seem to think that long-term solutions are a community problem, so that's not something they have any plans to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on. I'd much rather see the smaller part of the money spent on more software development, and the majority spent setting up support services that handle alleged harassment in a more mature way, even if the people who are doing the real support work end up being us volunteers.
Fae
On 27 January 2017 at 20:16, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/craigslist-founder-donates-500k-to-curb-wikip...
Wow! When I think of the 2 plus hrs a week x 385 odd weeks of hours I spent dealing with guys who just didn't like the idea that a "female" dared to edit - or worse, change their edit - I still tear my hair out.
I just hope it helps!!
I'd like to go back in a few years when hopefully have accomplished other goals. Or ENCOURAGE women to edit, as opposed to now having to warn them all the time about what they have to do to edit safely!
CM
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
It's not our moral role as Wikipedians and it's not the role of the Wikimedia foundation to take a deeply investigative role of harassment. We can block harassers when proof is brought to us, but finding them is difficult and is a task that should be handled by the respective platforms themselves. If someone is harassing someone off-wiki, we shouldn't play detective when we can just share the information we have (in accordance with the privacy policy) and let other places perform their own investigations.
On Feb 9, 2017 12:43 PM, "Carol Moore dc" carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
Hopefully having a metric will make it easier to stop obvious harassment within Wikipedia. I complained for a year to several admins and in at least one ANI on a related topic about the one male ideologue who followed me to many and then eventually most articles to criticize, insult and revert me. But it wasn't til a male editor noticed and complained to ANI about an obviously biased revert being part of a pattern of his harassing me that an admin - and eventually Arbitators- finally sanctioned him with one way interaction band.
I agree defacto therapy is a good way to deal with guys who psychologically can't handle having women criticizing and reverting them. It won't stop committed ideologues like the above, but at least it will slow them down and discourage them.
As for the offline harassers, I had my problems in 2011 when Wikimedia Foundation was pretty slow to respond even though they'd dealt with aserial harasser of men and women who was kicked off wikipedia years go. He just decided to pick on me over some issue he disagreed with, including a 1000 odd death threats delivered via email through the wikifoundation email system. It took several months after my complaints to them before it stopped and I don't know if foundation stopped it. A year or so later I got a short string of threats. (Since he was on other side of country and known for this I didn't contact police cause who needs feds rummaging around their computer? If he was in neighborhood I might have.)
Re: other harassment in multiple forums. One thing they could use the money for is a couple internet detectives who could identify the harasser's various handles and get them kicked off forums where they are harassing (twitter/FB/etc.). Even get them kicked off their internet provider if possible. Of course, there'd have to be some adjustment of the outing policy. Like, it's OK for the foundation to do it if it's a serious problem? Or is that the policy now?
CM
On 2/7/2017 5:09 AM, Fæ wrote:
I find it depressing that the only actually *planned* way that this money is going be spent is on developing reports and tools to hunt down apparent harassers so that they can be blocked. Meh.
For those of us that have experienced obsessive harassment, we know that this is not a cure. When the harassment continues off-wiki, sometimes for years, the only advice from the WMF or on-wiki groups is for the *victim* to vanish, meaning that those that were outed have to close down their Facebook, LinkedIn, etc. accounts with all the associated damage that comes with being forced to take a paranoid path; not even mentioning how the rest of the Wiki-community is affected by seeing how trolling does not stop until the target vanishes or goes in to hiding for a few years. A better use of this money would be to try new methods of engaging with the apparent harasser and consider ways of encouraging them to change their behaviour.
I doubt that many of the trolls that post misogynistic, racist or homophobic rubbish believe in these views, they are seeking attention, for personal reasons they may not even understand themselves. An approach to harassment that offers experienced counselling and support to both victim and attacker has a much better chance of being both an effective and long-term solution.
Based on the related email discussion, the WMF seem to think that long-term solutions are a community problem, so that's not something they have any plans to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on. I'd much rather see the smaller part of the money spent on more software development, and the majority spent setting up support services that handle alleged harassment in a more mature way, even if the people who are doing the real support work end up being us volunteers.
Fae
On 27 January 2017 at 20:16, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/craigslist-founder-donates- 500k-to-curb-wikipedia-trolls-1.3259781
Wow! When I think of the 2 plus hrs a week x 385 odd weeks of hours I spent dealing with guys who just didn't like the idea that a "female" dared to edit - or worse, change their edit - I still tear my hair out.
I just hope it helps!!
I'd like to go back in a few years when hopefully have accomplished other goals. Or ENCOURAGE women to edit, as opposed to now having to warn them all the time about what they have to do to edit safely!
CM
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
_______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Good point...
On 2/9/2017 1:01 PM, JJ Marr wrote:
It's not our moral role as Wikipedians and it's not the role of the Wikimedia foundation to take a deeply investigative role of harassment. We can block harassers when proof is brought to us, but finding them is difficult and is a task that should be handled by the respective platforms themselves. If someone is harassing someone off-wiki, we shouldn't play detective when we can just share the information we have (in accordance with the privacy policy) and let other places perform their own investigations.
On Feb 9, 2017 12:43 PM, "Carol Moore dc" <carolmooredc@verizon.net mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net> wrote:
Carol, sorry to see your email took two days to get here. These sorts of list delays can be a bit confusing when reading through a thread. (Hint to list admin.)
I would be against setting up Wikimedia secret 'black ops' teams. It's actually been done before, and it's not good for the people involved. Black ops people may have fun playing amateur detective, but they tend to disappear down the rabbit hole along with their target. It's also really bad news for people that get targeted with false or mistaken allegations as it's rarely the case that targets of black ops get to examine evidence, or the opportunity to review possible Joe-job attacks.
However, it would be good if the WMF were to /positively/ cooperate on assembling evidence to support victims who go to the police with harassment complaints. When I went to the police, the WMF pass over no data without a subpoena, and frankly the London met police have enough problems with resources to follow-up on knife attacks, and have absolutely no capacity to deal with international subpoena requests for data unless it's as serious as a potential terrorist attack or realistic death threats from a stalker. Add to this that the victim must officially request the data via a U.S. court within the 90 days before the WMF permanently deletes it, and the system is crazily biased towards protecting the anonymity of harassers and trolls.
Similarly, it would be nice if a volunteer team, who are not selected because they are Wikipedia admins or checkusers, were available to help long term targets of harassment with better management of their social profile, as well as helping to collect evidence of a harasser misusing external social networks so that the victim can make sensible and well informed complaints to the service providers. However volunteer teams would need specialist training, as part of their role will always be to act as a sounding board rather than simply taking or advising on action. There are some dedicated WMF resources, but many victims would be more comfortable discussing cases with independent people who are not obligated to keep internal WMF records.
Fae
On 7 February 2017 at 16:52, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
Hopefully having a metric will make it easier to stop obvious harassment within Wikipedia. I complained for a year to several admins and in at least one ANI on a related topic about the one male ideologue who followed me to many and then eventually most articles to criticize, insult and revert me. But it wasn't til a male editor noticed and complained to ANI about an obviously biased revert being part of a pattern of his harassing me that an admin - and eventually Arbitators- finally sanctioned him with one way interaction band.
I agree defacto therapy is a good way to deal with guys who psychologically can't handle having women criticizing and reverting them. It won't stop committed ideologues like the above, but at least it will slow them down and discourage them.
As for the offline harassers, I had my problems in 2011 when Wikimedia Foundation was pretty slow to respond even though they'd dealt with aserial harasser of men and women who was kicked off wikipedia years go. He just decided to pick on me over some issue he disagreed with, including a 1000 odd death threats delivered via email through the wikifoundation email system. It took several months after my complaints to them before it stopped and I don't know if foundation stopped it. A year or so later I got a short string of threats. (Since he was on other side of country and known for this I didn't contact police cause who needs feds rummaging around their computer? If he was in neighborhood I might have.)
Re: other harassment in multiple forums. One thing they could use the money for is a couple internet detectives who could identify the harasser's various handles and get them kicked off forums where they are harassing (twitter/FB/etc.). Even get them kicked off their internet provider if possible. Of course, there'd have to be some adjustment of the outing policy. Like, it's OK for the foundation to do it if it's a serious problem? Or is that the policy now?
CM
On 2/7/2017 5:09 AM, Fæ wrote:
I find it depressing that the only actually *planned* way that this money is going be spent is on developing reports and tools to hunt down apparent harassers so that they can be blocked. Meh.
For those of us that have experienced obsessive harassment, we know that this is not a cure. When the harassment continues off-wiki, sometimes for years, the only advice from the WMF or on-wiki groups is for the *victim* to vanish, meaning that those that were outed have to close down their Facebook, LinkedIn, etc. accounts with all the associated damage that comes with being forced to take a paranoid path; not even mentioning how the rest of the Wiki-community is affected by seeing how trolling does not stop until the target vanishes or goes in to hiding for a few years. A better use of this money would be to try new methods of engaging with the apparent harasser and consider ways of encouraging them to change their behaviour.
I doubt that many of the trolls that post misogynistic, racist or homophobic rubbish believe in these views, they are seeking attention, for personal reasons they may not even understand themselves. An approach to harassment that offers experienced counselling and support to both victim and attacker has a much better chance of being both an effective and long-term solution.
Based on the related email discussion, the WMF seem to think that long-term solutions are a community problem, so that's not something they have any plans to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on. I'd much rather see the smaller part of the money spent on more software development, and the majority spent setting up support services that handle alleged harassment in a more mature way, even if the people who are doing the real support work end up being us volunteers.
Fae
On 27 January 2017 at 20:16, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/craigslist-founder-donates-500k-to-curb-wikip...
Wow! When I think of the 2 plus hrs a week x 385 odd weeks of hours I spent dealing with guys who just didn't like the idea that a "female" dared to edit - or worse, change their edit - I still tear my hair out.
I just hope it helps!!
I'd like to go back in a few years when hopefully have accomplished other goals. Or ENCOURAGE women to edit, as opposed to now having to warn them all the time about what they have to do to edit safely!
CM
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
The assumption here is that harassing users are the same as blocked users, to which I say a great big "citation needed". As I recall, one of the big reasons Kevin gave for moving discussion of gender to this mailing list is that list moderators are able to keep out harassment, which they were unable to do with the gender gap project on enwiki. So if admins failed to deal with harassment in the past, why is the problem of harassment now being turned over to them. But that is exactly what it looks like the WMF is doing, i.e. they say "we want to partner with admins", plus apparently the updates are going to be published on enwiki to something called the "administrators' newsletter". [1] Since most people believe the admins to be primarily male and heterosexual, this leaves the problem of harassment to be defined by those who are the least likely to have experienced it or to understand what it is.
The WMF already announced this on the Wikimedia mailing list back in January, not sure why they decided to bypass this mailing list. [2]
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Community_health_initiative [2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2017-January/086013.html
On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 5:09 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
I find it depressing that the only actually *planned* way that this money is going be spent is on developing reports and tools to hunt down apparent harassers so that they can be blocked. Meh.
For those of us that have experienced obsessive harassment, we know that this is not a cure. When the harassment continues off-wiki, sometimes for years, the only advice from the WMF or on-wiki groups is for the *victim* to vanish, meaning that those that were outed have to close down their Facebook, LinkedIn, etc. accounts with all the associated damage that comes with being forced to take a paranoid path; not even mentioning how the rest of the Wiki-community is affected by seeing how trolling does not stop until the target vanishes or goes in to hiding for a few years. A better use of this money would be to try new methods of engaging with the apparent harasser and consider ways of encouraging them to change their behaviour.
I doubt that many of the trolls that post misogynistic, racist or homophobic rubbish believe in these views, they are seeking attention, for personal reasons they may not even understand themselves. An approach to harassment that offers experienced counselling and support to both victim and attacker has a much better chance of being both an effective and long-term solution.
Based on the related email discussion, the WMF seem to think that long-term solutions are a community problem, so that's not something they have any plans to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on. I'd much rather see the smaller part of the money spent on more software development, and the majority spent setting up support services that handle alleged harassment in a more mature way, even if the people who are doing the real support work end up being us volunteers.
Fae
On 27 January 2017 at 20:16, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/craigslist-founder-donates-500k-to-curb-
wikipedia-trolls-1.3259781
Wow! When I think of the 2 plus hrs a week x 385 odd weeks of hours I
spent
dealing with guys who just didn't like the idea that a "female" dared to edit - or worse, change their edit - I still tear my hair out.
I just hope it helps!!
I'd like to go back in a few years when hopefully have accomplished other goals. Or ENCOURAGE women to edit, as opposed to now having to warn them
all
the time about what they have to do to edit safely!
CM
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