Hi,
one example of discrimination in the software we use (MediaWiki) is the way user pages are designated and displayed. If you create a user profile, your page is called "User:Yournamehere". This works fine in English, but in some other languages, the default for "User:" is the male translation. Some have aliases (but always display the male expression), others don't.
There's actually a bug report about this for Polish: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17160
I am wondering: - Are there people on this list affected by this? If so, how do you feel about it - how important would it be to you to get this fixed? - Are there other examples of discriminatory language (or interfaces) that are built into the software?
Thanks, Erik
Well, particulary, I have no problem with the male "Usuário" (in portuguese). And sincerely, I don't think the fact of see a male word will push me out Wikippedia. We are quite used to use a male word in portuguese when we don't know the gender of someone, but yes, would be nice to see a "Usuária" in my page :D _____ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt (351) 963 953 042
*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer.*
2011/2/5 Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org
Hi,
one example of discrimination in the software we use (MediaWiki) is the way user pages are designated and displayed. If you create a user profile, your page is called "User:Yournamehere". This works fine in English, but in some other languages, the default for "User:" is the male translation. Some have aliases (but always display the male expression), others don't.
There's actually a bug report about this for Polish: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17160
I am wondering:
- Are there people on this list affected by this? If so, how do you
feel about it - how important would it be to you to get this fixed?
- Are there other examples of discriminatory language (or interfaces)
that are built into the software?
Thanks, Erik
-- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Well, particulary, I have no problem with the male "Usuário" (in portuguese). And >sincerely, I don't think the fact of see a male word will push me out Wikippedia. We >are quite used to use a male word in portuguese when we don't know the gender of >someone, but yes, would be nice to see a "Usuária" in my page :D
There is an option to indicate your gender under preferences. I can't imagine that it wouldn't be possible to code things so that a user checking "female" would get a feminine-form word (where applicable ... is "Utilisateuse", say, a practical or common form of the word in French?) preceding the name, but without creating a separate namespace.
Daniel Case
Hi,
this is Lena, Germany. I'm one of those women Wikimedia would like to encourage (I'm interested, but I haven't edited much more than a few typing errors anonymously).
Like Béria, I don't think male words will push people out of Wikipedia - that is, they won't push out the women that are already in. But I do think that female words could encourage some of the women who are still hesitating and unsure. It says: "Yes, we're talking to you!"
I don't feel unwanted if someone doesn't use the female words. But I don't feel wanted either. I someone does use female words, it feels like it's more directed to me. (I don't want it to work like that, by the way. But unfortunately, it does work like this for me.)
all best, Lena
On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 8:22 PM, Béria Lima beria.lima@wikimedia.pt wrote:
Well, particulary, I have no problem with the male "Usuário" (in portuguese). And sincerely, I don't think the fact of see a male word will push me out Wikippedia. We are quite used to use a male word in portuguese when we don't know the gender of someone, but yes, would be nice to see a "Usuária" in my page :D _____ *Béria Lima* Wikimedia Portugal http://wikimedia.pt (351) 963 953 042
*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer.*
2011/2/5 Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org
Hi,
one example of discrimination in the software we use (MediaWiki) is the way user pages are designated and displayed. If you create a user profile, your page is called "User:Yournamehere". This works fine in English, but in some other languages, the default for "User:" is the male translation. Some have aliases (but always display the male expression), others don't.
There's actually a bug report about this for Polish: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17160
I am wondering:
- Are there people on this list affected by this? If so, how do you
feel about it - how important would it be to you to get this fixed?
- Are there other examples of discriminatory language (or interfaces)
that are built into the software?
Thanks, Erik
-- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
In my observation, German female editors tend to (or not care of) using Benutzer (user as male) to mention themselves in their writing, but French editors seem to stick to call themselves Utilisatrice (user as female).
Latin Wikipedia has a female option on their {{welcome}} equivalent, but it seems sometimes to be used without minding in which sex the user being welcomed is.
Besides that, in feminism it has been pointed out addressing explicitly someone female as such when their gender/sex is not a matter is a sort of discrimination (the earliest mention was iirc Barkoff 1968 in a study of English linguistic). It's no simple question if we should make it clear whether a user is male or female.
On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Lena ... lenarohrbach@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, this is Lena, Germany. I'm one of those women Wikimedia would like to encourage (I'm interested, but I haven't edited much more than a few typing errors anonymously). Like Béria, I don't think male words will push people out of Wikipedia - that is, they won't push out the women that are already in. But I do think that female words could encourage some of the women who are still hesitating and unsure. It says: "Yes, we're talking to you!" I don't feel unwanted if someone doesn't use the female words. But I don't feel wanted either. I someone does use female words, it feels like it's more directed to me. (I don't want it to work like that, by the way. But unfortunately, it does work like this for me.) all best, Lena
On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 8:22 PM, Béria Lima beria.lima@wikimedia.pt wrote:
Well, particulary, I have no problem with the male "Usuário" (in portuguese). And sincerely, I don't think the fact of see a male word will push me out Wikippedia. We are quite used to use a male word in portuguese when we don't know the gender of someone, but yes, would be nice to see a "Usuária" in my page :D _____ Béria Lima Wikimedia Portugal (351) 963 953 042
Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer.
2011/2/5 Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org
Hi,
one example of discrimination in the software we use (MediaWiki) is the way user pages are designated and displayed. If you create a user profile, your page is called "User:Yournamehere". This works fine in English, but in some other languages, the default for "User:" is the male translation. Some have aliases (but always display the male expression), others don't.
There's actually a bug report about this for Polish: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17160
I am wondering:
- Are there people on this list affected by this? If so, how do you
feel about it - how important would it be to you to get this fixed?
- Are there other examples of discriminatory language (or interfaces)
that are built into the software?
Thanks, Erik
-- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 3:09 PM, KIZU Naoko aphaia@gmail.com wrote:
In my observation, German female editors tend to (or not care of) using Benutzer (user as male) to mention themselves in their writing
I do believe this is your observation, but I am German, and I am female, and I would appreciate it if I was not addressed as "Benutzer". Strangely, I sometimes call myself "Benutzer" without noticing it, but if someone addresses me as "Benutzerin" (female), it feels like it's more directed to me. So it might be that the women you observed are just like me. Also, it might me that they want to avoid anyone knowing their gender for fear of harassment, ad hominem argument etc. So...
It's no simple question if we should make it clear whether a user is male or female.
I agree with you. It should absolutely be the users own choice. But right now, you don't have a choice. If I want to get a user account, it says "Benutzerkonto" (German: Account for male users)
Besides that, in feminism it has been pointed out addressing explicitly someone female as such when their gender/sex is not a matter is a sort of discrimination (the earliest mention was iirc Barkoff 1968 in a study of English linguistic)
That might or might not be true, but right now Wikipedia is addressing me as a male although my gender/sex is not a matter. And I'm pretty sure this also is a sort of discrimination from a feminist point of view. ;)
I strongly support Deboras suggestions. In many cases there are gender neutral words available that could be used.
all best, Lena
On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Lena ... lenarohrbach@gmail.com wrote:
Hi, this is Lena, Germany. I'm one of those women Wikimedia would like to encourage (I'm interested, but I haven't edited much more than a few typing errors anonymously). Like Béria, I don't think male words will push people out of Wikipedia - that is, they won't push out the women that are already in. But I do think that female words could encourage some of the women who are still hesitating and unsure. It says: "Yes, we're talking to you!" I don't feel unwanted if someone doesn't use the female words. But I don't feel wanted either. I someone does use female words, it feels like it's more directed to me. (I don't want it to work like that, by the way. But unfortunately, it does work like this for me.) all best, Lena
On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 8:22 PM, Béria Lima beria.lima@wikimedia.pt wrote:
Well, particulary, I have no problem with the male "Usuário" (in portuguese). And sincerely, I don't think the fact of see a male word will push me out Wikippedia. We are quite used to use a male word in portuguese when we don't know the gender of someone, but yes, would be nice to see a "Usuária" in my page :D _____ Béria Lima Wikimedia Portugal (351) 963 953 042
Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer.
2011/2/5 Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org
Hi,
one example of discrimination in the software we use (MediaWiki) is the way user pages are designated and displayed. If you create a user profile, your page is called "User:Yournamehere". This works fine in English, but in some other languages, the default for "User:" is the male translation. Some have aliases (but always display the male expression), others don't.
There's actually a bug report about this for Polish: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17160
I am wondering:
- Are there people on this list affected by this? If so, how do you
feel about it - how important would it be to you to get this fixed?
- Are there other examples of discriminatory language (or interfaces)
that are built into the software?
Thanks, Erik
-- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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-- KIZU Naoko / 木津尚子 member of Wikimedians in Kansai / 関西ウィキメディアユーザ会 http://kansai.wikimedia.jp
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Besides that, in feminism it has been pointed out addressing explicitly someone female as such when their gender/sex is not a matter is a sort of discrimination (the earliest mention was iirc Barkoff 1968 in a study of English linguistic)
Which is why (I think) in some fields in English-speaking countries, there is a mass preference for using the male form in a gender-inclusive way, i.e. from [[Gender-specific job titles]]:
"Increasing numbers of women are calling themselves actors rather than actresses, especially in the live theatre. The Screen Actors Guild annually gives out awards for 'Best Male Actor' and 'Best Female Actor'."
I always thought the argument there was that insisting on gender-specific terms can, in that case, further discrimination.
It seems like we're fortunate with "user" having arisen from a natural Germanic ending rather than a Latin suffix that "usress" never caught on, if it was ever coined, as it's somewhat orthographically and phonologically awkward.
Daniel Case
On 6 February 2011 16:32, Lena ... lenarohrbach@gmail.com wrote:
I agree with you. It should absolutely be the users own choice. But right now, you don't have a choice. If I want to get a user account, it says "Benutzerkonto" (German: Account for male users)
Wow.
So just to make sure I'm understanding this: on for example the German Wikipedia, not only are all registered users identified as part of a male category (Benutzer, "male user"), but the actual invitation to register in the first place is itself also gendered (Benutzerkonto, "account for male users")?
That is awful.
In marketing, depth of attachment/affiliation/identification to a product is often gauged by asking people if they feel like the product "is for people like you." The corollary of that is that marketers try to increase users' sense of attachment/affiliation/identification, by persuading them the product is in fact "for them." We are doing the opposite.
Thanks Erik for first raising the issue, and Lena for providing a key piece of information that is important and new (at least to me).
Thanks, Sue
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 6 February 2011 16:32, Lena ... lenarohrbach@gmail.com wrote:
I agree with you. It should absolutely be the users own choice. But right now, you don't have a choice. If I want to get a user account, it says "Benutzerkonto" (German: Account for male users)
Wow.
So just to make sure I'm understanding this: on for example the German Wikipedia, not only are all registered users identified as part of a male category (Benutzer, "male user"), but the actual invitation to register in the first place is itself also gendered (Benutzerkonto, "account for male users")?
That is awful.
Grammatically it is justified because of a rule: if a group consists of both male and female, the group should be gendered as male. It is same in many Indo-European languages including German, French and many others. Of course same in Latin and Greek. I personally don't like it and think of it as no politically correct, but it is our linguistic reality - reality which reflects male dominance in society as whole.
I don't care on my "Benutzer" page, nor mind someone female calling themselves Benutzer, but not easy to call myself "Benutzer:Aphaia". It could be not consistent at all, but I've felt so for years. I'm happy to know I'm not alone to feel that.
Also it is a long tradition of using male form in the argument on a person whose natural sex doesn't or should not matter at all. I doesn't cite examples here, but supposedly Benutzerkonto is one of such examples.
For those MediaWiki valuables, it's technically quite easy to change. Just register to Transatewiki.net and edit related Mediawiki files, or modify dewiki* equivalents if you prefer to begin with a small step. IIRC German l10n team on twn is active but still small (4 or 5 ppl when I gave a look last time). They might welcome new translators I suppose.
In marketing, depth of attachment/affiliation/identification to a product is often gauged by asking people if they feel like the product "is for people like you." The corollary of that is that marketers try to increase users' sense of attachment/affiliation/identification, by persuading them the product is in fact "for them." We are doing the opposite.
Thanks Erik for first raising the issue, and Lena for providing a key piece of information that is important and new (at least to me).
Thanks, Sue
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On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 6 February 2011 16:32, Lena ... lenarohrbach@gmail.com wrote:
I agree with you. It should absolutely be the users own choice. But right now, you don't have a choice. If I want to get a user account, it says "Benutzerkonto" (German: Account for male users)
Wow.
So just to make sure I'm understanding this: on for example the German Wikipedia, not only are all registered users identified as part of a male category (Benutzer, "male user"), but the actual invitation to register in the first place is itself also gendered (Benutzerkonto, "account for male users")?
Hmm. It is a bit more complicated that that. When you translate it into English, "account for male users" sounds terrible, but in French (or German, for that matter) having to sign up for a "Compte d'utilisateur" or a "Benutzerkonto" does not sound that bad, at least not to me. Maybe it's because I'm used to it, but as Naoko pointed out, the "plural" as well as the "neutral" tends to take a masculine form in the grammar, so I find it's ok on that level, becasue "utilisateur" at this stage is rather a neutral thing.
However, the fact that pages display "Benutzer:Delphine" or "Utilisateur:Delphine" is, in my opinion, more problematic. As a matter of fact, I've had "utilisatrice:notafish" displayed on my fr.wp page for ever, although the link is still gendered: "http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilisateur:Notafish". :D
I think Debora has a point, there are lots of things that could be done to avoid the gender in some hard coded things, without being detrimental to the comprehension. Giving the choice between "utilisateur" or "utilisateur" might be an option. Next I see though, is people refusing to choose one or the other (a legitimate wish, imho), where we'd probably get stuck :)
It is in the end a very tricky subject, in France, people have been fighting for a long time to impose female versions of words that didn't have one, such as "professeure", or "auteure". I personally find these words ugly, but then, I'm rather conservative when it comes to language :)
As for the The Screen Actors Guild example, I could never ever imagine having the French give up the word "actrice", or it even suggesting that an actrice is anything less than an actor. Different countries, different gendered cultures...
Delphine
Sue, Delphine & al., On Mon, 07 Feb 2011 11:25:25 +0100, Delphine Ménard notafishz@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
[...]
So just to make sure I'm understanding this: on for example the German Wikipedia, not only are all registered users identified as part of a male category (Benutzer, "male user"), but the actual invitation to register in the first place is itself also gendered (Benutzerkonto, "account for male users")?
Hmm. It is a bit more complicated that that. When you translate it into English, "account for male users" sounds terrible, but in French (or German, for that matter) having to sign up for a "Compte d'utilisateur" or a "Benutzerkonto" does not sound that bad, at least not to me.
JFTR: "Benutzerinkonto" is not a German word, it would look awkward to say the least to any native German speaker.
Besides that, I find all the chatter about grammar, quite tangential. There is a culture of misogyny in the Wikimedia projects, way above the level of comparable work or even volunteer environments, which is neither due to the use of grammar, nor can it be adequately fought with a change grammer rules in the software.
Thomas/user:fossa
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 11:43 AM, Thomas Koenig fossa@gmx.li wrote:
Sue, Delphine & al., On Mon, 07 Feb 2011 11:25:25 +0100, Delphine Ménard notafishz@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
[...]
So just to make sure I'm understanding this: on for example the German Wikipedia, not only are all registered users identified as part of a male category (Benutzer, "male user"), but the actual invitation to register in the first place is itself also gendered (Benutzerkonto, "account for male users")?
Hmm. It is a bit more complicated that that. When you translate it into English, "account for male users" sounds terrible, but in French (or German, for that matter) having to sign up for a "Compte d'utilisateur" or a "Benutzerkonto" does not sound that bad, at least not to me.
JFTR: "Benutzerinkonto" is not a German word, it would look awkward to say the least to any native German speaker.
Yeah, that's what I thought. Compte d'utilisatrice would sound weird, although it would be correct.
Besides that, I find all the chatter about grammar, quite tangential. There is a culture of misogyny in the Wikimedia projects, way above the level of comparable work or even volunteer environments, which is neither due to the use of grammar, nor can it be adequately fought with a change grammer rules in the software.
Heh, have you then never been addressed as a "Benutzerin"? ;) "notafish" is gender neutral enough that "utilisatrice" changes the whole perspective when appended to the username.
I agree that this may not be the most important issue, but I also believe that all issues that can be tackled should be tackled. And this is one which might prove quie easy to tackle, actually.
Delphine
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 11:43 AM, Thomas Koenig fossa@gmx.li wrote:
JFTR: "Benutzerinkonto" is not a German word, it would look awkward to say the least to any native German speaker.
That's right, but that's because "Benutzerinkonto" is wrong German grammar. "Benutzerinnenkonto" would be correct and sounds fine to me.
Besides that, I find all the chatter about grammar, quite tangential. There is a culture of misogyny in the Wikimedia projects, way above the level of comparable work or even volunteer environments, which is neither due to the use of grammar, nor can it be adequately fought with a change grammer rules in the software.
I agree that grammar is not the main problem, but it might well be the one that is most easy to solve! You just need to change a few words to maybe have a big impact. :) To change the culture is much more complicated and will take much longer, although it's admittedly more important. (But maybe changing the words is a first step to changing the culture?)
Best, Lena
Hello Lena, hello all, On Mon, 07 Feb 2011 15:28:13 +0100, Lena ... lenarohrbach@gmail.com wrote:
I agree that grammar is not the main problem, but it might well be the one that is most easy to solve! You just need to change a few words to maybe have a big impact. :) To change the culture is much more complicated and will take much longer, although it's admittedly more important. (But maybe changing the words is a first step to changing the culture?)
Call me a male chauvinist, but on the question of Karl Marx vs. Judith Butler, I still go with good old Marx: "Das Sein bestimmt das Bewusstsein" (I translate that into: "the material circumstances tend to influence the ideology, rather than the other way around" (p>.5)). But, then again, I certainly would give it a try. Which brings me to a rule on the German-speaking Wikipedia:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Namenskonventionen#M.C3.A4nnliche_und...
A bunch of male geeks has constructed a "consensus" there, that the, admittedly actively feminist, but nevertheless quite usual, form with a capital "I" is to be banned from the German Wikipedia. Another male, Alexis de Tocqueville, would call such a rule "tyranny of the majority".
Thomas/fossa
2011/2/7 Thomas Koenig fossa@gmx.li:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Namenskonventionen#M.C3.A4nnliche_und...
A bunch of male geeks has constructed a "consensus" there, that the, admittedly actively feminist, but nevertheless quite usual, form with a capital "I" is to be banned from the German Wikipedia.
In fact, it was just one geek - and that one was female. http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Namenskonventionen&d...
The first opposition against this rule came a year later, by a male user. http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_Diskussion:Namenskonvent...
greetings, elian
Am 07.02.2011 15:28, schrieb Lena ...:
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 11:43 AM, Thomas Koenigfossa@gmx.li wrote:
JFTR: "Benutzerinkonto" is not a German word, it would look awkward
to say
the least to any native German speaker.
That's right, but that's because "Benutzerinkonto" is wrong German grammar. "Benutzerinnenkonto" would be correct and sounds fine to me.
Some possibilities to solve the problem might be to -find neutral words whenever this is possible so that you don't need any gender markers anymore - to not use gendered prefixes or markers whenever the sense of a multi sense word (like "account") is made clear by the context - to directly adress the person so that direct speech is employed.
like (instead of user account) only "account" and afterwards the login field ; or "your account" in German, the possibilities proposed above would come up to sth like Nutzungskonto or Benutzungskonto, only "Konto" or "Dein Konto/Ihr Konto"
Besides that, I find all the chatter about grammar, quite tangential. There is a culture of misogyny in the Wikimedia projects, way above the level of comparable work or even volunteer environments, which is
neither
due to the use of grammar, nor can it be adequately fought with a change grammer rules in the software.
I agree that grammar is not the main problem, but it might well be the one that is most easy to solve! You just need to change a few words to maybe have a big impact. :)
Yes, changing a few words may have a big impact, but that does not solve at all the beyond structures that ally language, socialisation and society.
To change the culture is much more complicated and will take much longer, although it's admittedly more important. (But maybe changing the words is a first step to changing the culture?)
Changing some or even a lot of words is not equal to changing the grammar, so - yes, changing some words may have an impact, but as long as the language determining grammar structures stay unchanged, the effects of changing some words will probably stay limited. That does not mean at all that we shouldn't change words! - its just to underline that, at the end, we also need to analyze and to trying to change the underlaying structures.
Best, Lena
Best, Manu
Thomas wrote:
Besides that, I find all the chatter about grammar, quite tangential. There is a culture of misogyny in the Wikimedia projects, way above the level of comparable work or even volunteer environments, which is neither due to the use of grammar, nor can it be adequately fought with a change grammer rules in the software.
My comment:
In the early 1980s, a man named [[Harold Washington]] became the first* African-American mayor of Chicago, a city that has had a long history of racial tension. There were *many* issues awaiting him as mayor, both related and unrelated to that.
In his first weeks as mayor, city public works crews went out to the poorer neighborhoods of the city, many of which were predominantly African-American and had voted for Washington overwhelmingly. They went and repaved streets that had been pitted and potholed for decades.
It was probably the least of their problems, but the gesture was understood and appreciated. It helped him hold support through what proved some difficult years as mayor (see [[Council Wars]]), years so stressful they probably contributed to his early death after he left office.
The lesson: as others have said, if in a process like this you identify an issue which can be almost immediately resolved without controversy, DO IT. Don't wait for the big picture to get cleaned up.
Daniel Case
*And so far only
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case dancase@frontiernet.net wrote:
The lesson: as others have said, if in a process like this you identify an issue which can be almost immediately resolved without controversy, DO IT. Don't wait for the big picture to get cleaned up.
+1
Sam/Sj
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 6 February 2011 16:32, Lena ... lenarohrbach@gmail.com wrote:
I agree with you. It should absolutely be the users own choice. But right now, you don't have a choice. If I want to get a user account, it says "Benutzerkonto" (German: Account for male users)
Wow.
So just to make sure I'm understanding this: on for example the German Wikipedia, not only are all registered users identified as part of a male category (Benutzer, "male user"), but the actual invitation to register in the first place is itself also gendered (Benutzerkonto, "account for male users")?
Yes, or almost yes. It's a complicated issue. In many european languages, for hundreds of years it has been normal to address mixed gender groups only with the male terms. But they still are the male terms (you normally don't address females-only groups like this). This has been a big issue for feminists. By now, government departments, public agencies, schools, universities etc. are required to also use the female words (works like this: Benutzer/in; Benutzer/innenkonto).
There are women who don't care, women who care a lot, and women like me who normally don't realize how much they care until they are addresses using the female words and suddenly feel more spoken to.
In marketing, depth of attachment/affiliation/identification to a product is often gauged by asking people if they feel like the product "is for people like you." The corollary of that is that marketers try to increase users' sense of attachment/affiliation/identification, by persuading them the product is in fact "for them." We are doing the opposite.
Yes! This is exactly how I feel about this (I just couldn't express is that well in English)
Best, Lena
Each wiki could fix this without editing MediaWiki code. Someone could create a bot that have access to the gender information of each user. Then to all the female users the bot moves the content from User_male_word:Somewoman to User_woman_word:Somewoman (the same with the talk page) Then makes a redirect to the new userpage, and change the signature of the user in "My Preferences" so it links to User_woman_word from now on.
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Lena ... lenarohrbach@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 6 February 2011 16:32, Lena ... lenarohrbach@gmail.com wrote:
I agree with you. It should absolutely be the users own choice. But right now, you don't have a choice. If I want to get a user account, it says "Benutzerkonto" (German: Account for male users)
Wow.
So just to make sure I'm understanding this: on for example the German Wikipedia, not only are all registered users identified as part of a male category (Benutzer, "male user"), but the actual invitation to register in the first place is itself also gendered (Benutzerkonto, "account for male users")?
Yes, or almost yes. It's a complicated issue. In many european languages, for hundreds of years it has been normal to address mixed gender groups only with the male terms. But they still are the male terms (you normally don't address females-only groups like this). This has been a big issue for feminists. By now, government departments, public agencies, schools, universities etc. are required to also use the female words (works like this: Benutzer/in; Benutzer/innenkonto).
There are women who don't care, women who care a lot, and women like me who normally don't realize how much they care until they are addresses using the female words and suddenly feel more spoken to.
In marketing, depth of attachment/affiliation/identification to a product is often gauged by asking people if they feel like the product "is for people like you." The corollary of that is that marketers try to increase users' sense of attachment/affiliation/identification, by persuading them the product is in fact "for them." We are doing the opposite.
Yes! This is exactly how I feel about this (I just couldn't express is that well in English)
Best, Lena
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