Hey, I've been following this list for a while. I'm pretty sick of the constant sexism on Wikipedia, and depressed because it's not just a few users, but seen in the opinions and suggestions of so many. I've started a twitter account (https://twitter.com/SaidOnWP) to give some examples of what I think the most egregious things said are. This will probably upset some users, especially users that meant well, but many things that are said that are "well-meaning" have some offensive underlying ideas.
I want to show the mass of evidence that sexism exists on WP in a venue where it doesn't have to be interrupted by users demanding proof. I know that this is more confrontational than some users will want, but I'm sick of the anti-interventionalist sentiment from different quarters in WP, with the attitude "oh! well it's up to what the community wants...!" This is a problem with the community and I hope to shed some light on it.
I'm going to be posting things every day and have enough content planned for about a month, repost, send me examples or follow my twitter. I'm only posting content from this year, and include analyses, discussions, commentary and incidents.
#saidonWP
The *#WhyIStayed hashtag shows also applies to this discussion. *
On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 6:05 AM, Gender Gap saidonwp@gmail.com wrote:
Hey, I've been following this list for a while. I'm pretty sick of the constant sexism on Wikipedia, and depressed because it's not just a few users, but seen in the opinions and suggestions of so many. I've started a twitter account (https://twitter.com/SaidOnWP) to give some examples of what I think the most egregious things said are. This will probably upset some users, especially users that meant well, but many things that are said that are "well-meaning" have some offensive underlying ideas.
I want to show the mass of evidence that sexism exists on WP in a venue where it doesn't have to be interrupted by users demanding proof. I know that this is more confrontational than some users will want, but I'm sick of the anti-interventionalist sentiment from different quarters in WP, with the attitude "oh! well it's up to what the community wants...!" This is a problem with the community and I hope to shed some light on it.
I'm going to be posting things every day and have enough content planned for about a month, repost, send me examples or follow my twitter. I'm only posting content from this year, and include analyses, discussions, commentary and incidents.
#saidonWP
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Frankly, given the hostility to the Gender Gap project, I have to wonder about this Hashtag effort.
Lightbreather quoted some obnoxious guy statements a month ago out of her own account and was roundly criticized. Forum shopping and canvassing issues were raised while others applauded it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_170#Fed_up_with_......
I personally wouldn't do it because the wrong Admin who was friends with people you quoted (or people who don't like you) probably would get you blocked for weeks or months at a time. So it could be a way to trap editors whose twitter accounts are somehow linked to their user names.
I know at least one guy at an ANI got away with criticizing a woman editor on her editing at a number of off wiki-sites. But that doesn't mean any of us would get away with it.
And this also can be turned about the Gender Gap Project "#GenderGapStupidity" or whatever.
So unless there was some community consensus on an appropriate way to do this, I would tread carefully...
CM
On 9/9/2014 6:05 AM, Gender Gap wrote:
Hey, I've been following this list for a while. I'm pretty sick of the constant sexism on Wikipedia, and depressed because it's not just a few users, but seen in the opinions and suggestions of so many. I've started a twitter account (https://twitter.com/SaidOnWP) to give some examples of what I think the most egregious things said are. This will probably upset some users, especially users that meant well, but many things that are said that are "well-meaning" have some offensive underlying ideas.
I want to show the mass of evidence that sexism exists on WP in a venue where it doesn't have to be interrupted by users demanding proof. I know that this is more confrontational than some users will want, but I'm sick of the anti-interventionalist sentiment from different quarters in WP, with the attitude "oh! well it's up to what the community wants...!" This is a problem with the community and I hope to shed some light on it.
I'm going to be posting things every day and have enough content planned for about a month, repost, send me examples or follow my twitter. I'm only posting content from this year, and include analyses, discussions, commentary and incidents.
#saidonWP
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
I'm going to keep at it, for now. Honestly, I'm tired of it being a mostly internally discussed problem... Perhaps I'll change my mind at some point, but that's my thinking on it at this time.
Lightbreather
On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
Frankly, given the hostility to the Gender Gap project, I have to wonder about this Hashtag effort.
Lightbreather quoted some obnoxious guy statements a month ago out of her own account and was roundly criticized. Forum shopping and canvassing issues were raised while others applauded it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_170#Fed_up_with_... ...
I personally wouldn't do it because the wrong Admin who was friends with people you quoted (or people who don't like you) probably would get you blocked for weeks or months at a time. So it could be a way to trap editors whose twitter accounts are somehow linked to their user names.
I know at least one guy at an ANI got away with criticizing a woman editor on her editing at a number of off wiki-sites. But that doesn't mean any of us would get away with it.
And this also can be turned about the Gender Gap Project "#GenderGapStupidity" or whatever.
So unless there was some community consensus on an appropriate way to do this, I would tread carefully...
CM
On 9/9/2014 7:51 PM, LB wrote:
I'm going to keep at it, for now. Honestly, I'm tired of it being a mostly internally discussed problem... Perhaps I'll change my mind at some point, but that's my thinking on it at this time.
Lightbreather
You are braver than I! On the other hand this is what [[User:Jayen466|Andreas]] wrote when I complained the woman editor was being harassed off line:
/ Criticising the quality of an editor's work, whether here or elsewhere, is not harassment. This is not a private project, but a public one, with a significant impact on public life. Any such public project should be prepared to be criticised. If someone writes nonsense in a science article read and relied on by a million people a year, that is a matter of public interest, just like stories like [http://twkozlowski.net/the-pot-and-the-kettle-the-wikimedia-way/ this], [http://twkozlowski.net/paid-editing-thrives-in-the-heart-of-wikipedia/ this], [http://www.salon.com/2013/05/17/revenge_ego_and_the_corruption_of_wikipedia/ this], [http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/is-the-pr-industry-buying-influence-over-wiki... this] or [http://www.dailydot.com/politics/croatian-wikipedia-fascist-takeover-controv... this]. If you would like to curtail editors' freedom to speak out about Wikipedia's failings in public, this in itself will be a media story, and rightly so. Such ideas belong to places like Azerbaijan and North Korea.
/Thus one would think quoting nasty sexist things, especially when an editor's name not mentioned should be ok. This really was a test case, wasn't it? (Or not in a community that still applies double standards to male vs. female actions.) / /Here's the link to the ANI in question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incide...
On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Carol Moore dc <carolmooredc@verizon.net mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net> wrote:
Frankly, given the hostility to the Gender Gap project, I have to wonder about this Hashtag effort. Lightbreather quoted some obnoxious guy statements a month ago out of her own account and was roundly criticized. Forum shopping and canvassing issues were raised while others applauded it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_170#Fed_up_with_the_status_quo... I personally wouldn't do it because the wrong Admin who was friends with people you quoted (or people who don't like you) probably would get you blocked for weeks or months at a time. So it could be a way to trap editors whose twitter accounts are somehow linked to their user names. I know at least one guy at an ANI got away with criticizing a woman editor on her editing at a number of off wiki-sites. But that doesn't mean any of us would get away with it. And this also can be turned about the Gender Gap Project "#GenderGapStupidity" or whatever. So unless there was some community consensus on an appropriate way to do this, I would tread carefully... CM
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
On 9/9/2014 7:51 PM, LB wrote:
I'm going to keep at it, for now. Honestly, I'm tired of it being a mostly internally discussed problem... Perhaps I'll change my mind at some point, but that's my thinking on it at this time.
Lightbreather
You are braver than I! On the other hand this is what [[User:Jayen466|Andreas]] wrote when I complained the woman editor was being harassed off line:
Criticising the quality of an editor's work, whether here orelsewhere, is not harassment. This is not a private project, but a public one, with a significant impact on public life. Any such public project should be prepared to be criticised. If someone writes nonsense in a science article read and relied on by a million people a year, that is a matter of public interest, just like stories like [http://twkozlowski.net/the-pot-and-the-kettle-the-wikimedia-way/ http://twkozlowski.net/the-pot-and-the-kettle-the-wikimedia-way/ this], [http://twkozlowski.net/paid-editing-thrives-in-the-heart-of-wikipedia/ http://twkozlowski.net/paid-editing-thrives-in-the-heart-of-wikipedia/ this], [http://www.salon.com/2013/05/17/revenge_ego_and_the_corruption_of_wikipedia/ http://www.salon.com/2013/05/17/revenge_ego_and_the_corruption_of_wikipedia/ this], [http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/is-the-pr-industry-buying-influence-over-wiki... http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/is-the-pr-industry-buying-influence-over-wikipedia this] or [http://www.dailydot.com/politics/croatian-wikipedia-fascist-takeover-controv... http://www.dailydot.com/politics/croatian-wikipedia-fascist-takeover-controversy-right-wing/ this]. If you would like to curtail editors' freedom to speak out about Wikipedia's failings in public, this in itself will be a media story, and rightly so. Such ideas belong to places like Azerbaijan and North Korea. *Thus one would think quoting nasty sexist things, especially when an editor's name not mentioned should be ok. This really was a test case, wasn't it? (Or not in a community that still applies double standards to male vs. female actions.)
Here's the link to the ANI in question:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incide...
Where were the sexist comments? The user complaining of harassment and the user accused of harassment were both women, and I see no comments about gender in either the AN/I or the extensive editor review. The harassment complained of was the persistence of an editor in following another editor around and pointing out errors in many of her articles, and the argumentative and derisive attitude of the first towards the latter. Andreas' point is that criticism, by itself, is not harassment. Many agreed with the criticism but advised the critic that she needed an attitude adjustment. At that point she disengaged.
So it's a problem when we conflate circumstances which do not implicate gender or sexism with those that do. Calling this an example of sexism muddies the waters, particularly when there are many examples that are perfectly clear cut. It *is* an example of the hassle and angry debate involved in contributing to Wikipedia, though, and I can certainly see how that would drive all sorts of people away from the project.
Hi. Some people can't speak up about what happened for legal reasons.
I do think there is a double standard. But I have before my involvement in wiki. Living in the US it's a way of life.
Some women who were impacted by those posts were harassed by people involved way prior to making their own minor and harmless in the end game errors which got them "in trouble." Women just did not take action or make it public. No one should have to post on a public website that they have been sexually harassed to get help. And "bad people on the internet are common" is the general response.
There are also male staff members who did things considered illegal in the US courts who still have their jobs (some don't work there anymore but it shocked many of us women they were allowed to stay so long given their behaviors). Amazing how that works.
But, some of us can't and are afraid to talk about it. Some of us just want closure but the trolls and internet won't give it to us. (And it's not just me...)
And no I am not elaborating on or offlist. So don't ask. I gave up fighting after I lost my job. So I commend those who still care.
I love the Twitter feed, by the way.
Sarah On Sep 10, 2014 8:41 AM, "Nathan" nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
On 9/9/2014 7:51 PM, LB wrote:
I'm going to keep at it, for now. Honestly, I'm tired of it being a mostly internally discussed problem... Perhaps I'll change my mind at some point, but that's my thinking on it at this time.
Lightbreather
You are braver than I! On the other hand this is what [[User:Jayen466|Andreas]] wrote when I complained the woman editor was being harassed off line:
Criticising the quality of an editor's work, whether here orelsewhere, is not harassment. This is not a private project, but a public one, with a significant impact on public life. Any such public project should be prepared to be criticised. If someone writes nonsense in a science article read and relied on by a million people a year, that is a matter of public interest, just like stories like [http://twkozlowski.net/the-pot-and-the-kettle-the-wikimedia-way/ http://twkozlowski.net/the-pot-and-the-kettle-the-wikimedia-way/ this], [http://twkozlowski.net/paid-editing-thrives-in-the-heart-of-wikipedia/ http://twkozlowski.net/paid-editing-thrives-in-the-heart-of-wikipedia/ this], [http://www.salon.com/2013/05/17/revenge_ego_and_the_corruption_of_wikipedia/ http://www.salon.com/2013/05/17/revenge_ego_and_the_corruption_of_wikipedia/ this], [http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/is-the-pr-industry-buying-influence-over-wiki... http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/is-the-pr-industry-buying-influence-over-wikipedia this] or [http://www.dailydot.com/politics/croatian-wikipedia-fascist-takeover-controv... http://www.dailydot.com/politics/croatian-wikipedia-fascist-takeover-controversy-right-wing/ this]. If you would like to curtail editors' freedom to speak out about Wikipedia's failings in public, this in itself will be a media story, and rightly so. Such ideas belong to places like Azerbaijan and North Korea. *Thus one would think quoting nasty sexist things, especially when an editor's name not mentioned should be ok. This really was a test case, wasn't it? (Or not in a community that still applies double standards to male vs. female actions.)
Here's the link to the ANI in question:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incide...
Where were the sexist comments? The user complaining of harassment and the user accused of harassment were both women, and I see no comments about gender in either the AN/I or the extensive editor review. The harassment complained of was the persistence of an editor in following another editor around and pointing out errors in many of her articles, and the argumentative and derisive attitude of the first towards the latter. Andreas' point is that criticism, by itself, is not harassment. Many agreed with the criticism but advised the critic that she needed an attitude adjustment. At that point she disengaged.
So it's a problem when we conflate circumstances which do not implicate gender or sexism with those that do. Calling this an example of sexism muddies the waters, particularly when there are many examples that are perfectly clear cut. It *is* an example of the hassle and angry debate involved in contributing to Wikipedia, though, and I can certainly see how that would drive all sorts of people away from the project.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
Hi. Some people can't speak up about what happened for legal reasons.
I do think there is a double standard. But I have before my involvement in wiki. Living in the US it's a way of life.
Some women who were impacted by those posts were harassed by people involved way prior to making their own minor and harmless in the end game errors which got them "in trouble." Women just did not take action or make it public. No one should have to post on a public website that they have been sexually harassed to get help. And "bad people on the internet are common" is the general response.
There are also male staff members who did things considered illegal in the US courts who still have their jobs (some don't work there anymore but it shocked many of us women they were allowed to stay so long given their behaviors). Amazing how that works.
But, some of us can't and are afraid to talk about it. Some of us just want closure but the trolls and internet won't give it to us. (And it's not just me...)
And no I am not elaborating on or offlist. So don't ask. I gave up fighting after I lost my job. So I commend those who still care.
I love the Twitter feed, by the way.
Sarah On Sep 10, 2014 8:41 AM, "Nathan" nawrich@gmail.com wrote
Hi Sarah, I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was understanding Carol as saying that there were sexist comments in the ANI she linked (where Andreas' quoted comment was found). I read the entire AN/I thread and the editor review and found none.
Of course I realize that there are many, many instances of terrible sexual harassment on the Internet and throughout the history of Wikipedia. My point about muddying the waters is that these examples are enough to convince anyone open to being convinced that there is a problem. It is unnecessary to attach these real issues to examples that don't reflect sexism or gender-related harassment.
That said, even though I don't see sexism or gender in the example, it is a good example of the spiteful, bitter, battlefield atmosphere that characterizes disputes on Wikipedia.
Thanks Nathan. I do concur that harassment to the level myself, Carol and other very active outspoken women have experienced on/off wiki is not the standard experience for every woman who lines up to click edit.
It sucks that it happens. But I also always remind people - unless you are editing controversial subjects or pose a direct threat to the patriarchy you won't get messed with. Or at least not much.
Just keep your head down and write about knitting and women scientists. You will be "just fine..."
(With slight sarcasm :)
Sarah On Sep 10, 2014 9:09 AM, "Nathan" nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
Hi. Some people can't speak up about what happened for legal reasons.
I do think there is a double standard. But I have before my involvement in wiki. Living in the US it's a way of life.
Some women who were impacted by those posts were harassed by people involved way prior to making their own minor and harmless in the end game errors which got them "in trouble." Women just did not take action or make it public. No one should have to post on a public website that they have been sexually harassed to get help. And "bad people on the internet are common" is the general response.
There are also male staff members who did things considered illegal in the US courts who still have their jobs (some don't work there anymore but it shocked many of us women they were allowed to stay so long given their behaviors). Amazing how that works.
But, some of us can't and are afraid to talk about it. Some of us just want closure but the trolls and internet won't give it to us. (And it's not just me...)
And no I am not elaborating on or offlist. So don't ask. I gave up fighting after I lost my job. So I commend those who still care.
I love the Twitter feed, by the way.
Sarah On Sep 10, 2014 8:41 AM, "Nathan" nawrich@gmail.com wrote
Hi Sarah, I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was understanding Carol as saying that there were sexist comments in the ANI she linked (where Andreas' quoted comment was found). I read the entire AN/I thread and the editor review and found none.
Of course I realize that there are many, many instances of terrible sexual harassment on the Internet and throughout the history of Wikipedia. My point about muddying the waters is that these examples are enough to convince anyone open to being convinced that there is a problem. It is unnecessary to attach these real issues to examples that don't reflect sexism or gender-related harassment.
That said, even though I don't see sexism or gender in the example, it is a good example of the spiteful, bitter, battlefield atmosphere that characterizes disputes on Wikipedia.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
And of course, that is the nub of the problem. Women shouldn't have to keep their heads down and write about acceptable and uncontroversial things to avoid getting harassed. (Also, I'm not sure even editing women scientists would be safe.)
Lightbreather
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks Nathan. I do concur that harassment to the level myself, Carol and other very active outspoken women have experienced on/off wiki is not the standard experience for every woman who lines up to click edit.
It sucks that it happens. But I also always remind people - unless you are editing controversial subjects or pose a direct threat to the patriarchy you won't get messed with. Or at least not much.
Just keep your head down and write about knitting and women scientists. You will be "just fine..."
(With slight sarcasm :)
Sarah
I agree. But, it hasn't been serving those women who don't very well. The NFL is appearing to have a better track record right now than the Wikimedia community... in handling harassers and that's not saying much at all :)
Sarah
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 9:36 AM, LB lightbreather2@gmail.com wrote:
And of course, that is the nub of the problem. Women shouldn't have to keep their heads down and write about acceptable and uncontroversial things to avoid getting harassed. (Also, I'm not sure even editing women scientists would be safe.)
Lightbreather
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks Nathan. I do concur that harassment to the level myself, Carol and other very active outspoken women have experienced on/off wiki is not the standard experience for every woman who lines up to click edit.
It sucks that it happens. But I also always remind people - unless you are editing controversial subjects or pose a direct threat to the patriarchy you won't get messed with. Or at least not much.
Just keep your head down and write about knitting and women scientists. You will be "just fine..."
(With slight sarcasm :)
Sarah
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
On Sep 10, 2014 8:41 AM, "Nathan" <nawrich@gmail.com mailto:nawrich@gmail.com> wrote
Hi Sarah, I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was understanding Carol as saying that there were sexist comments in the ANI she linked (where Andreas' quoted comment was found). I read the entire AN/I thread and the editor review and found none.
I did not know that the harassing individual was a woman until now. If it was mentioned in passing in the ANI, I missed it.
Frankly, unless a woman through her user name makes it clear she is a woman, given the predominance of males, I've come to the point where I do not even bother to try to figure it out. Even with women joining the Gender gap task force, I don't always check it out and sometimes when I have there also was no indication on their user page. One such woman went around complaining I didn't know she was a woman, when there had been no indication. We are not mind readers. I have often regretted using my real name and an obviously female name. However the last week or so I have see the fact that so many women feel forced to hide their sex to prevent their being ignored, reverted, harassed, etc. as a kind of burqa we are forced to wear to protect ourselves. It's pretty sad.
In any case, the ANI itself is still primarily relevant to off-wiki criticism and whether women can use a *twitter hashtag* to identify criticism and whether we should... Thus I've added that to the subject line to stay on topic.
While I'm not going to promote the idea, I think anyone is serious about it they might take it to Village Pump - or the WP:Canvas or WP:Forumshopping pages.
CM