Interesting take/story on medium.com :
For what it's worth, I have not found that wolf-whistles and aggressive questioning, like the situation described in the article, are typical of any Wikipedia meetups that I've been to (and I'm an active member of Wikimedia NYC, which is what's being described there, though I was not at the meetup in question). It is *not *uncommon for there to be creepiness, especially of the type where someone who makes female attendees uncomfortable isn't spoken to/removed even after complaints (and that's absolutely a problem), but overt aggression of the type described here is foreign to my experiences with not only Wikimedia NYC, but multiple Wikimanias.
If we're going to zero in on what makes meetups uncomfortable for women, I'd say we'd do more user-retention good trying to head off the "random creep attends meetups apparently solely to ogle the women" problem, which is common, rather than the "women are overtly treated like shit when they are giving a public presentation" problem, of which this article is the first I've heard.
-Fluffernutter
On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Joseph Reagle joseph.2011@reagle.orgwrote:
Interesting take/story on medium.com :
https://medium.com/better-**humans/11acd4a7f44chttps://medium.com/better-humans/11acd4a7f44c
______________________________**_________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/gendergaphttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
I think that both of these situations are a significant problem and are rooted in the same apathy on the part of Wikipedia community.
Both of these situations can be reversed by people who are motivated to stop it from happening.
I challenge the folks in the NYC Chapter to make their events welcoming all people.
I see it as a positive sign that this being discussed by folks in the Chapter. This needs to be a priority and not go to the back burner when the media coverage ends.
Thanks everyone for raising it here.
Sydney User:FloNight
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 24, 2013, at 9:30 AM, Katherine Casey fluffernutter.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
For what it's worth, I have not found that wolf-whistles and aggressive questioning, like the situation described in the article, are typical of any Wikipedia meetups that I've been to (and I'm an active member of Wikimedia NYC, which is what's being described there, though I was not at the meetup in question). It is not uncommon for there to be creepiness, especially of the type where someone who makes female attendees uncomfortable isn't spoken to/removed even after complaints (and that's absolutely a problem), but overt aggression of the type described here is foreign to my experiences with not only Wikimedia NYC, but multiple Wikimanias.
If we're going to zero in on what makes meetups uncomfortable for women, I'd say we'd do more user-retention good trying to head off the "random creep attends meetups apparently solely to ogle the women" problem, which is common, rather than the "women are overtly treated like shit when they are giving a public presentation" problem, of which this article is the first I've heard.
-Fluffernutter
On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Joseph Reagle joseph.2011@reagle.org wrote:
Interesting take/story on medium.com :
https://medium.com/better-humans/11acd4a7f44c
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Strange attendees you have there in NYC! Though I have never experienced anything like what is described here, I can say we get some strange attendees over here as well, and last year I experienced some highly uncomfortable moments in January of 2012 during the Teylers meetup to celebrate the New Year. We had posted a general notice rather than the usual one to logged in users and we got some, uh, interesting people in attendance. We had a backstage pass followed by drinks in a local bar, and the less-museum inclined skipped the museum and joined us there, but not all of them! I was a "Wikimedian assistant" accompanying one of the groups being led around the museum, and to my astonishment there were people picking up artefacts to look at them. When I explained that they should just look and don't touch, they seemed surprised but admitted they "had never been in a museum before".
Since the Teylers opens its doors for free at least three times a year, these people came to ogle Wikipedians, I think. Once they were told, they kept on opening cupboards and leaning on cabinets and so forth, so I was very relieved when we finally left the building. I never felt so embarrassed about being a Wikipedian! After discussing this with other "groupleaders" we concluded that we should never use the general notice for meetups anymore, only the notice for logged in users.
2013/6/26, Sydney sydney.poore@gmail.com:
I think that both of these situations are a significant problem and are rooted in the same apathy on the part of Wikipedia community.
Both of these situations can be reversed by people who are motivated to stop it from happening.
I challenge the folks in the NYC Chapter to make their events welcoming all people.
I see it as a positive sign that this being discussed by folks in the Chapter. This needs to be a priority and not go to the back burner when the media coverage ends.
Thanks everyone for raising it here.
Sydney User:FloNight
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 24, 2013, at 9:30 AM, Katherine Casey fluffernutter.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
For what it's worth, I have not found that wolf-whistles and aggressive questioning, like the situation described in the article, are typical of any Wikipedia meetups that I've been to (and I'm an active member of Wikimedia NYC, which is what's being described there, though I was not at the meetup in question). It is not uncommon for there to be creepiness, especially of the type where someone who makes female attendees uncomfortable isn't spoken to/removed even after complaints (and that's absolutely a problem), but overt aggression of the type described here is foreign to my experiences with not only Wikimedia NYC, but multiple Wikimanias.
If we're going to zero in on what makes meetups uncomfortable for women, I'd say we'd do more user-retention good trying to head off the "random creep attends meetups apparently solely to ogle the women" problem, which is common, rather than the "women are overtly treated like shit when they are giving a public presentation" problem, of which this article is the first I've heard.
-Fluffernutter
On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Joseph Reagle joseph.2011@reagle.org wrote:
Interesting take/story on medium.com :
https://medium.com/better-humans/11acd4a7f44c
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Let me clarify to say that I mean welcoming to all well behaving people. :-)
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 26, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com wrote:
Strange attendees you have there in NYC! Though I have never experienced anything like what is described here, I can say we get some strange attendees over here as well, and last year I experienced some highly uncomfortable moments in January of 2012 during the Teylers meetup to celebrate the New Year. We had posted a general notice rather than the usual one to logged in users and we got some, uh, interesting people in attendance. We had a backstage pass followed by drinks in a local bar, and the less-museum inclined skipped the museum and joined us there, but not all of them! I was a "Wikimedian assistant" accompanying one of the groups being led around the museum, and to my astonishment there were people picking up artefacts to look at them. When I explained that they should just look and don't touch, they seemed surprised but admitted they "had never been in a museum before".
Since the Teylers opens its doors for free at least three times a year, these people came to ogle Wikipedians, I think. Once they were told, they kept on opening cupboards and leaning on cabinets and so forth, so I was very relieved when we finally left the building. I never felt so embarrassed about being a Wikipedian! After discussing this with other "groupleaders" we concluded that we should never use the general notice for meetups anymore, only the notice for logged in users.
2013/6/26, Sydney sydney.poore@gmail.com:
I think that both of these situations are a significant problem and are rooted in the same apathy on the part of Wikipedia community.
Both of these situations can be reversed by people who are motivated to stop it from happening.
I challenge the folks in the NYC Chapter to make their events welcoming all people.
I see it as a positive sign that this being discussed by folks in the Chapter. This needs to be a priority and not go to the back burner when the media coverage ends.
Thanks everyone for raising it here.
Sydney User:FloNight
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 24, 2013, at 9:30 AM, Katherine Casey fluffernutter.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
For what it's worth, I have not found that wolf-whistles and aggressive questioning, like the situation described in the article, are typical of any Wikipedia meetups that I've been to (and I'm an active member of Wikimedia NYC, which is what's being described there, though I was not at the meetup in question). It is not uncommon for there to be creepiness, especially of the type where someone who makes female attendees uncomfortable isn't spoken to/removed even after complaints (and that's absolutely a problem), but overt aggression of the type described here is foreign to my experiences with not only Wikimedia NYC, but multiple Wikimanias.
If we're going to zero in on what makes meetups uncomfortable for women, I'd say we'd do more user-retention good trying to head off the "random creep attends meetups apparently solely to ogle the women" problem, which is common, rather than the "women are overtly treated like shit when they are giving a public presentation" problem, of which this article is the first I've heard.
-Fluffernutter
On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Joseph Reagle joseph.2011@reagle.org wrote:
Interesting take/story on medium.com :
https://medium.com/better-humans/11acd4a7f44c
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Exactly! I guess some guidelines would be great to have on how you could avoid such situations - for everybody involved with face-to-face events, not just women. So for example when advertising GLAM meetups at a museum, include a comment such as "welcoming museum lovers and professionals alike", for WLM "Wiki takes xxx" meetups, "welcoming all photographers who love architecture and local xxx history", and for Gendergap meetups, "welcoming all those who would like to see more contributions by women appear on Wikipedia"
2013/6/26, Sydney sydney.poore@gmail.com:
Let me clarify to say that I mean welcoming to all well behaving people. :-)
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 26, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com wrote:
Strange attendees you have there in NYC! Though I have never experienced anything like what is described here, I can say we get some strange attendees over here as well, and last year I experienced some highly uncomfortable moments in January of 2012 during the Teylers meetup to celebrate the New Year. We had posted a general notice rather than the usual one to logged in users and we got some, uh, interesting people in attendance. We had a backstage pass followed by drinks in a local bar, and the less-museum inclined skipped the museum and joined us there, but not all of them! I was a "Wikimedian assistant" accompanying one of the groups being led around the museum, and to my astonishment there were people picking up artefacts to look at them. When I explained that they should just look and don't touch, they seemed surprised but admitted they "had never been in a museum before".
Since the Teylers opens its doors for free at least three times a year, these people came to ogle Wikipedians, I think. Once they were told, they kept on opening cupboards and leaning on cabinets and so forth, so I was very relieved when we finally left the building. I never felt so embarrassed about being a Wikipedian! After discussing this with other "groupleaders" we concluded that we should never use the general notice for meetups anymore, only the notice for logged in users.
2013/6/26, Sydney sydney.poore@gmail.com:
I think that both of these situations are a significant problem and are rooted in the same apathy on the part of Wikipedia community.
Both of these situations can be reversed by people who are motivated to stop it from happening.
I challenge the folks in the NYC Chapter to make their events welcoming all people.
I see it as a positive sign that this being discussed by folks in the Chapter. This needs to be a priority and not go to the back burner when the media coverage ends.
Thanks everyone for raising it here.
Sydney User:FloNight
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 24, 2013, at 9:30 AM, Katherine Casey fluffernutter.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
For what it's worth, I have not found that wolf-whistles and aggressive questioning, like the situation described in the article, are typical of any Wikipedia meetups that I've been to (and I'm an active member of Wikimedia NYC, which is what's being described there, though I was not at the meetup in question). It is not uncommon for there to be creepiness, especially of the type where someone who makes female attendees uncomfortable isn't spoken to/removed even after complaints (and that's absolutely a problem), but overt aggression of the type described here is foreign to my experiences with not only Wikimedia NYC, but multiple Wikimanias.
If we're going to zero in on what makes meetups uncomfortable for women, I'd say we'd do more user-retention good trying to head off the "random creep attends meetups apparently solely to ogle the women" problem, which is common, rather than the "women are overtly treated like shit when they are giving a public presentation" problem, of which this article is the first I've heard.
-Fluffernutter
On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Joseph Reagle joseph.2011@reagle.org wrote:
Interesting take/story on medium.com :
https://medium.com/better-humans/11acd4a7f44c
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
On 6/24/2013 8:46 AM, Joseph Reagle wrote:
Interesting take/story on medium.com :
Re: contributions of users who identified as women are /significantly /more likely to be challenged or undone by fellow editors, according to a 2011 report by the University of Minnesota http://grouplens.org/system/files/wp-gender-wikisym2011.pdf.
Now wouldn't it be nice if Wikipedia ran little messages at top of page from time with various civility messages, including:
Have you found yourself reverting an editor's edits just because she is a woman??
or
Think someone reverted an editor's edit just because they think it is a woman? Say something...