Howie has the data I believe.
_______________________________ Philippe Beaudette Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone, please understand any misspellings or errors.
----- Reply message ----- From: "Oliver Keyes" scire.facias@gmail.com Date: Fri, Feb 11, 2011 5:45 pm Subject: [Gendergap] Example of Typical Response from Some Women To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
As said, we need a proper survey on the matter. Surveys are always going to be beset with statistical errors, but this seems a fairly vital thing. I think I mentioned before that, last year, the WMF did a general survey of people who had left Wikipedia and why. I think a good first step would be finding out where that data is and, if it included gender in the filled-out forms, comparing male and female reasons for leaving. If it did not, take the general statistical model and apply it again, including a gender entry, and compare the results.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 11:41 PM, Sandra ordonez sandratordonez@gmail.comwrote:
I think it does affect women more, but this is just my personal observation. And I should have put "typical response I ve gotten from women." This is why i love wikipedia - really helps you be very aware of your language. Thanks Oliver!!
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Oliver Keyes scire.facias@gmail.comwrote:
Yah, that's what I meant; newbie ignorance isn't a problem. Our attitude to newbie ignorance is the problem :P. This is something I think all new editors are at risk of (being shouted at and falling off the grid as a result) - I'm not sure why it would affect women more, or if it does at all.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Dominic dmcdevit@cox.net wrote:
Newbie ignorance is never a problem. All newbies are, by nature, ignorant of our policies and practices. We all started out that way. And the great thing about wikis is that that is okay and you can still contribute. If anything, the problem is intolerance of newbies. (That may be what you really meant anyway, but I think it is better to turn that phrase "newbie ignorance" around.)
Dominic
On 2/11/11 5:49 PM, Oliver Keyes wrote:
"Typical response from some women" should be "a response from a woman". So the problem, then, is newbie ignorance about our rules and policies?
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 10:41 PM, Sandra ordonez < sandratordonez@gmail.com> wrote:
Just wanted to share. Yesterday I put something on my facebook re: gender gap. My friend from high school, who totally would be a woman who would enjoy editing an encyclopedia, posted the following:
"Whenever I edit it usually gets taken down but some OCD nerd, that probably wants no one touching "their" site so I stopped bothering."
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing listGendergap@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- Sandra Ordonez Web Astronaut
"Helping you rock out in the virtual world."
*www.collaborativenation.com*
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Former_Contributors_Survey_Results
Link to result of Formeir contrib survey on the strategic planning wiki
Sydney
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 6:48 PM, pbeaudette@wikimedia.org < pbeaudette@wikimedia.org> wrote:
Howie has the data I believe.
Philippe Beaudette Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone, please understand any misspellings or errors.
----- Reply message ----- From: "Oliver Keyes" scire.facias@gmail.com Date: Fri, Feb 11, 2011 5:45 pm Subject: [Gendergap] Example of Typical Response from Some Women To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" < gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
As said, we need a proper survey on the matter. Surveys are always going to be beset with statistical errors, but this seems a fairly vital thing. I think I mentioned before that, last year, the WMF did a general survey of people who had left Wikipedia and why. I think a good first step would be finding out where that data is and, if it included gender in the filled-out forms, comparing male and female reasons for leaving. If it did not, take the general statistical model and apply it again, including a gender entry, and compare the results.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 11:41 PM, Sandra ordonez sandratordonez@gmail.comwrote:
I think it does affect women more, but this is just my personal observation. And I should have put "typical response I ve gotten from women." This is why i love wikipedia - really helps you be very aware of your language. Thanks Oliver!!
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Oliver Keyes <scire.facias@gmail.com wrote:
Yah, that's what I meant; newbie ignorance isn't a problem. Our attitude to newbie ignorance is the problem :P. This is something I think all new editors are at risk of (being shouted at and falling off the grid as a result) - I'm not sure why it would affect women more, or if it does at
all.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Dominic dmcdevit@cox.net wrote:
Newbie ignorance is never a problem. All newbies are, by nature, ignorant of our policies and practices. We all started out that way.
And the
great thing about wikis is that that is okay and you can still
contribute.
If anything, the problem is intolerance of newbies. (That may be what
you
really meant anyway, but I think it is better to turn that phrase
"newbie
ignorance" around.)
Dominic
On 2/11/11 5:49 PM, Oliver Keyes wrote:
"Typical response from some women" should be "a response from a woman". So the problem, then, is newbie ignorance about our rules and policies?
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 10:41 PM, Sandra ordonez < sandratordonez@gmail.com> wrote:
Just wanted to share. Yesterday I put something on my facebook re: gender gap. My friend from high school, who totally would be a woman
who
would enjoy editing an encyclopedia, posted the following:
"Whenever I edit it usually gets taken down but some OCD nerd, that probably wants no one touching "their" site so I stopped bothering."
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing listGendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- Sandra Ordonez Web Astronaut
"Helping you rock out in the virtual world."
*www.collaborativenation.com*
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Brilliant; thanks for this. It doesn't seem to include gender, but I appreciate this is the processed rather than raw result.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 11:53 PM, Sydney Poore sydney.poore@gmail.comwrote:
http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Former_Contributors_Survey_Results
Link to result of Formeir contrib survey on the strategic planning wiki
Sydney
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 6:48 PM, pbeaudette@wikimedia.org < pbeaudette@wikimedia.org> wrote:
Howie has the data I believe.
Philippe Beaudette Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone, please understand any misspellings or errors.
----- Reply message ----- From: "Oliver Keyes" scire.facias@gmail.com Date: Fri, Feb 11, 2011 5:45 pm Subject: [Gendergap] Example of Typical Response from Some Women To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" < gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
As said, we need a proper survey on the matter. Surveys are always going to be beset with statistical errors, but this seems a fairly vital thing. I think I mentioned before that, last year, the WMF did a general survey of people who had left Wikipedia and why. I think a good first step would be finding out where that data is and, if it included gender in the filled-out forms, comparing male and female reasons for leaving. If it did not, take the general statistical model and apply it again, including a gender entry, and compare the results.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 11:41 PM, Sandra ordonez sandratordonez@gmail.comwrote:
I think it does affect women more, but this is just my personal observation. And I should have put "typical response I ve gotten from women." This is why i love wikipedia - really helps you be very aware of your language. Thanks Oliver!!
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Oliver Keyes <scire.facias@gmail.com wrote:
Yah, that's what I meant; newbie ignorance isn't a problem. Our
attitude
to newbie ignorance is the problem :P. This is something I think all
new
editors are at risk of (being shouted at and falling off the grid as a result) - I'm not sure why it would affect women more, or if it does at
all.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Dominic dmcdevit@cox.net wrote:
Newbie ignorance is never a problem. All newbies are, by nature, ignorant of our policies and practices. We all started out that way.
And the
great thing about wikis is that that is okay and you can still
contribute.
If anything, the problem is intolerance of newbies. (That may be what
you
really meant anyway, but I think it is better to turn that phrase
"newbie
ignorance" around.)
Dominic
On 2/11/11 5:49 PM, Oliver Keyes wrote:
"Typical response from some women" should be "a response from a
woman".
So the problem, then, is newbie ignorance about our rules and
policies?
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 10:41 PM, Sandra ordonez < sandratordonez@gmail.com> wrote:
Just wanted to share. Yesterday I put something on my facebook re: gender gap. My friend from high school, who totally would be a woman
who
would enjoy editing an encyclopedia, posted the following:
"Whenever I edit it usually gets taken down but some OCD nerd, that probably wants no one touching "their" site so I stopped bothering."
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing listGendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- Sandra Ordonez Web Astronaut
"Helping you rock out in the virtual world."
*www.collaborativenation.com*
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Is there any chance Howie or someone could run a similar survey, possibly with a smaller number surveyed, including a gender entry? This would allow us to see if the reasons differ significantly between men and women. Not only that, but the response might provide a clearer indication of the actual demographics of the community, showing what people are willing to identify as in an anonymous, private survey rather than the open domain of Wikipedia.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 11:58 PM, Oliver Keyes scire.facias@gmail.comwrote:
Brilliant; thanks for this. It doesn't seem to include gender, but I appreciate this is the processed rather than raw result.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 11:53 PM, Sydney Poore sydney.poore@gmail.comwrote:
http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Former_Contributors_Survey_Results
Link to result of Formeir contrib survey on the strategic planning wiki
Sydney
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 6:48 PM, pbeaudette@wikimedia.org < pbeaudette@wikimedia.org> wrote:
Howie has the data I believe.
Philippe Beaudette Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone, please understand any misspellings or errors.
----- Reply message ----- From: "Oliver Keyes" scire.facias@gmail.com Date: Fri, Feb 11, 2011 5:45 pm Subject: [Gendergap] Example of Typical Response from Some Women To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" < gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
As said, we need a proper survey on the matter. Surveys are always going to be beset with statistical errors, but this seems a fairly vital thing. I think I mentioned before that, last year, the WMF did a general survey of people who had left Wikipedia and why. I think a good first step would be finding out where that data is and, if it included gender in the filled-out forms, comparing male and female reasons for leaving. If it did not, take the general statistical model and apply it again, including a gender entry, and compare the results.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 11:41 PM, Sandra ordonez sandratordonez@gmail.comwrote:
I think it does affect women more, but this is just my personal observation. And I should have put "typical response I ve gotten from women." This is why i love wikipedia - really helps you be very aware
of
your language. Thanks Oliver!!
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Oliver Keyes <scire.facias@gmail.com wrote:
Yah, that's what I meant; newbie ignorance isn't a problem. Our
attitude
to newbie ignorance is the problem :P. This is something I think all
new
editors are at risk of (being shouted at and falling off the grid as a result) - I'm not sure why it would affect women more, or if it does
at all.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Dominic dmcdevit@cox.net wrote:
Newbie ignorance is never a problem. All newbies are, by nature, ignorant of our policies and practices. We all started out that way.
And the
great thing about wikis is that that is okay and you can still
contribute.
If anything, the problem is intolerance of newbies. (That may be what
you
really meant anyway, but I think it is better to turn that phrase
"newbie
ignorance" around.)
Dominic
On 2/11/11 5:49 PM, Oliver Keyes wrote:
"Typical response from some women" should be "a response from a
woman".
So the problem, then, is newbie ignorance about our rules and
policies?
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 10:41 PM, Sandra ordonez < sandratordonez@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just wanted to share. Yesterday I put something on my facebook re: > gender gap. My friend from high school, who totally would be a woman
who
> would enjoy editing an encyclopedia, posted the following: > > > "Whenever I edit it usually gets taken down but some OCD nerd, that > probably wants no one touching "their" site so I stopped bothering." > > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > >
Gendergap mailing listGendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
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Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- Sandra Ordonez Web Astronaut
"Helping you rock out in the virtual world."
*www.collaborativenation.com*
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Oliver Keyes scire.facias@gmail.com wrote:
Is there any chance Howie or someone could run a similar survey, possibly with a smaller number surveyed, including a gender entry? This would allow us to see if the reasons differ significantly between men and women. Not only that, but the response might provide a clearer indication of the actual demographics of the community, showing what people are willing to identify as in an anonymous, private survey rather than the open domain of Wikipedia
+1 could this be on ongoing survey, run in a way to target a low randomized % of visitors continuously over time?
That sounds pretty difficult; I imagine a better approach would be either a one-off, or to have them every year or 6 months to see if there's a noticeable shift over time.
On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 12:39 AM, Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Oliver Keyes scire.facias@gmail.com wrote:
Is there any chance Howie or someone could run a similar survey, possibly with a smaller number surveyed, including a gender entry? This would
allow
us to see if the reasons differ significantly between men and women. Not only that, but the response might provide a clearer indication of the
actual
demographics of the community, showing what people are willing to
identify
as in an anonymous, private survey rather than the open domain of
Wikipedia
+1 could this be on ongoing survey, run in a way to target a low randomized % of visitors continuously over time?
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
2011/2/11 Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com:
could this be on ongoing survey, run in a way to target a low randomized % of visitors continuously over time?
Oliver is right that this kind of continuous data-gathering is non-trivial, but there are some great examples to learn from.
My favorite (and I mention it at every opportunity) is the Mozilla Input program. It's built into their Firefox 4 betas, and it gives users a continuous opportunity to report whether Firefox made them happy or sad, in 160 characters that go into a massive text mining database at: http://input.mozilla.com/en-US/beta/
Here's the UI they use in the browser: http://www.mozilla.com/img/firefox/beta/4/feedback-button.png
Imagine this integrated into the Wikimedia UI, and associated with anonymized user info, including gender for those willing to report it. That could be a really useful way to gather tons of data continuously about factors deterring people from contributing, including factors that relate directly to the gender gap. (I personally believe that the value of free-text feedback is greatly underestimated in surveying communities. The Mozilla Input site showcases some great approaches to making sense of tens of thousands of text messages.)
That'd be interesting, but it sounds like an idea which would require some time to implement, and some more time to show results. If we want to work on the gender gap, we need semi-reliable data pretty quickly. Perhaps we could perform another survey of the type Howie did, and then, as you and Samuel are suggesting, use a similar UI feature for continuous rolling updates on the data.
On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 3:24 AM, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
2011/2/11 Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com:
could this be on ongoing survey, run in a way to target a low randomized % of visitors continuously over time?
Oliver is right that this kind of continuous data-gathering is non-trivial, but there are some great examples to learn from.
My favorite (and I mention it at every opportunity) is the Mozilla Input program. It's built into their Firefox 4 betas, and it gives users a continuous opportunity to report whether Firefox made them happy or sad, in 160 characters that go into a massive text mining database at: http://input.mozilla.com/en-US/beta/
Here's the UI they use in the browser: http://www.mozilla.com/img/firefox/beta/4/feedback-button.png
Imagine this integrated into the Wikimedia UI, and associated with anonymized user info, including gender for those willing to report it. That could be a really useful way to gather tons of data continuously about factors deterring people from contributing, including factors that relate directly to the gender gap. (I personally believe that the value of free-text feedback is greatly underestimated in surveying communities. The Mozilla Input site showcases some great approaches to making sense of tens of thousands of text messages.) -- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
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