In the early days of this list, quite a few participants of both genders expressed the view that "women are turned off by all the fighting and feuding".
I don't doubt the validity of that sentiment, and that it reflects the feelings of some of the women who posted it. And, while of course it isn't just women who are turned off by that, I think it is true that more women than men would just go somewhere else rather than get in the middle of that sort of thing.
But I think we should be careful considering this because it's far too easy to fall into the stereotype of women as too fragile to handle any sort of conflict, and thus requiring exclusion or limitation from any sphere where that might break out. We all know that's not true, or we wouldn't be here.
And for what it's worth, two of the very small group of Wikipedia editors I'd figuratively walk across the street to avoid are women.
Daniel Case
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 5:51 PM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case < dancase@frontiernet.net> wrote:
In the early days of this list, quite a few participants of both genders expressed the view that "women are turned off by all the fighting and feuding".
I don't doubt the validity of that sentiment, and that it reflects the feelings of some of the women who posted it. And, while of course it isn't just women who are turned off by that, I think it is true that more women than men would just go somewhere else rather than get in the middle of that sort of thing.
But I think we should be careful considering this because it's far too easy to fall into the stereotype of women as too fragile to handle any sort of conflict, and thus requiring exclusion or limitation from any sphere where that might break out. We all know that's not true, or we wouldn't be here.
Do you think it is an issue that people say "women are turned off by all the fighting and feuding" and really mean "women are too fragile"?
I've been struggling with the level of involvement I want at Wikiversity. I'm not exactly fond of it, but people I know academically and professionally are. They love Wikiversity. There is what I feel a subtle amount of pressure to contribute to Wikiversity. I just look at the whole fighting and fueding by the admins over on Wikiversity... and I don't think: I'm too fragile to deal with this. I think: Why the hell should I have to deal with this? Why should I maintain a page like http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/UCNISS/Sport_Wiki_Academy on Wikiversity when I can maintain said page at http://ozziesport.com/sport-academies/ with out the trouble?
This isn't a question of fragility. It is an issue of my time is valuable. My motivations and objectives are clear. Why should I waste my valuable time on Wikipedia or Wikiversity when the politics of it, the fighting and the feuding, don't help me meet my objectives? They distract from my objectives. They eat away at my valuable time. My motivations are more complex than "help create the world's biggest repository of knowledge."
I think fighting and feuding are part of the problem but not in the way that you're implying.
Do you think it is an issue that people say "women are turned off by all the fighting and feuding" and really mean "women are too fragile"?
I think fighting and feuding are part of the problem but not in the way that you're implying.
My point is not the underlying reason for being turned off by the fighting. It's how that being turned off can be taken by others if you don't take care to fully explain these things.
Daniel Case
First, in talking about male and female attitudes/behaviors we usually are talking overlapping Bell Curves, not either or, so stereotyping isn't necessarily the issue.
The real problem is dominance-seeking behavior (mostly but not exclusively by males), which is the opposite of collaboration. Even if wikipedia was ALL males it would be trying to cool down such dominance behavior.
Given that Wikipedia both wants to encourage collaboration and bring more women in to increase the number of editors and broaden the scope and depth of entries, it seems like a no brainer to do what it takes to institute -- or more often *actually apply* -- policies that discourage the whole variety of dominance behaviors.
I freely admit that as a fairly dominant female, I will engage in such behaviors when sufficiently aggravated by males also engaging in them. (And that behavior sometimes carries over out of habit to articles where things have been collaborative, and I have to work to tone it down.)
But at 62 my blood pressure doesn't need the aggravation. Nor would that of the 10,000 seniors, male and female, I'd like to see join up to wikipedia over next few years. (Hint to official outreach people: do articles and ads in AARP and other senior publications.)
Active debate is one thing. Constantly running into, if I may speak freely -- p***ing contests and c*rcle j*rks -- is something entirely different, which a lot of people, male and female, have little stomach for. Who cares if it's nature or nurture why women dislike such behavior more?
Less hostile and more peaceful collaboration is good for BOTH women editors and Wikipedia.
*"Do you think it is an issue that people say "women are turned off by all the fighting and feuding" and really mean "women are too fragile"*
I couldn't agree more with laura. I always say, I already come from a dysfunctional family and have no choice if I have to interact with them.. LOL:) However, I do have a choice in every other area of my life.
Do I think it's an issue? It isn't to me. We're talking about women as a group, I don't think this is a statement fundamentally different than "men are taller than women". That statement doesn't mean that I'm not taller than my brother (hah!) or that Julia Child didn't exist. It just means that the average man is taller than the average woman.
But then again, some people consider the insinuation that women as a class are different than men as a class to mean precisely that. (Witness all the statements like "I'm a woman, and I edit Wikipedia, so there must not be a gender gap issue" or "some of the most prolific Wikipedians are women, so there's no problem with women in general not editing.")
Nepenthe
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Sandra ordonez sandratordonez@gmail.comwrote:
*"Do you think it is an issue that people say "women are turned off by all the fighting and feuding" and really mean "women are too fragile"*
I couldn't agree more with laura. I always say, I already come from a dysfunctional family and have no choice if I have to interact with them.. LOL:) However, I do have a choice in every other area of my life.
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