We shouldn't conflate "creepy" and "harassment" at all, to be honest. Sure, plenty of things that are creepy are also harassment, but plenty of things that are considered creepy are just poor social skills (laughing inappropriately) and may even be due to health conditions (greasy skin).
Harassment is a very serious allegation implying plenty of abuse, and using the term in conjunction with "creepy" degrades it to a level not befitting of what it truly is.
Also, saying "defining harassment" and then implying that the definition of it is the "nature of creepiness" feels pretty discriminatory to those who are less privileged in the area of social skills. Sometimes I don't know when I'm talking about a subject for too long, and labelling that "creepy" and implying it might be harassment seems to be crossing the line for me. On May 10, 2016 12:01 PM, "Neotarf" neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
A study published in the journal New Ideas in Psychology, unfortunately behind a paywall, reviewed by Dr. NerdLove. [1]
Some highlights:
*"*So we’re not allowed to give women compliments? – *No, telling a woman how sexy she is isn’t a compliment, especially when you don’t have that level of intimacy with her."
*"One of the keys to what made someone creepy was the potential for ambiguity. The study’s authors suggest that because one’s creep-radar is keyed towards finding potential threats, the ambiguousness of somebody’s behavior could make people uncomfortable. After all, if you’re continually wondering if this person actually poses a threat to you, you’re left in a state of anxious paralysis; you’re continually on edge trying to determine just what the appropriate reaction to the situation is. Guessing wrong can have consequences, after all; misjudge a potential threat and now you’ve made yourself vulnerable to someone who means you harm."
*"One of the most common ways guys are creepy is by ignoring issues of boundaries and demonstrating that they have more information about somebody than they should." Example from Instagram: He: "So I take it you're staying at the Excalibur?" She: "Excuse me, do you not seriously realize how f*cking creepy it is for a stranger to message a woman out of the blue insinuating he knows where she is?"
*From the comments: "Someone who comes close to that line and manages not to cross it obviously knows where it is."
[1] http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2016/05/the-science-of-being-creepy/
_______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
I'd largely agree, but there are some men who you really can't tell if they are clueless to their bad behavior (which some are) or just pretending to be (which others are), even when you are with them in person.
On 5/12/2016 9:51 PM, JJ Marr wrote:
We shouldn't conflate "creepy" and "harassment" at all, to be honest. Sure, plenty of things that are creepy are also harassment, but plenty of things that are considered creepy are just poor social skills (laughing inappropriately) and may even be due to health conditions (greasy skin).
Harassment is a very serious allegation implying plenty of abuse, and using the term in conjunction with "creepy" degrades it to a level not befitting of what it truly is.
Also, saying "defining harassment" and then implying that the definition of it is the "nature of creepiness" feels pretty discriminatory to those who are less privileged in the area of social skills. Sometimes I don't know when I'm talking about a subject for too long, and labelling that "creepy" and implying it might be harassment seems to be crossing the line for me.
JJ Marr, you have articulated the exact reason we need to have these things spelled out. Obviously you can't use visual cues in a policy for an online written media. I addressed all of this in a proposal on meta over a year ago. [1] That proposal was based on a set of published guidelines for employee groups; if anyone would like to go into it further, shoot me an email and I would be happy to provide the reference. For more about creepiness, here is something that came across my feed recently about post- rape culture dating: [2]
Nathan, there were actually two questions in the survey that dealt with sexual harassment, but IIRC there were some issues about how they were interpreted. The Pew survey certainly went further. [3] The value of the WMF survey was that 3,845 Wikimedians participated in the survey. Of that number, 38% said they had been harassed. Of those who said they were harassed, 54% said they decreased their participation in the project as a result. That so few people were willing to participate in the survey discussion publicly and that those who did, saw the discussion quickly deteriorate into an aggressive environment, speaks for itself. I would go further and venture that I cannot name even one person who has spoken out openly against harassment and is still in good standing and actively participating at enwiki.
If the WMF intends to do anything about harassment, which remains to be seen, they cannot continue to depend on crowdsourcing and grad students for their solutions; they will need people who are able and willing to stand up against the inevitable pushback.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Comprehensive_harassment_and_... [2] http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/04/rape-culture-dating/ [3] http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/
On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 9:51 PM, JJ Marr jjmarr@gmail.com wrote:
We shouldn't conflate "creepy" and "harassment" at all, to be honest. Sure, plenty of things that are creepy are also harassment, but plenty of things that are considered creepy are just poor social skills (laughing inappropriately) and may even be due to health conditions (greasy skin).
Harassment is a very serious allegation implying plenty of abuse, and using the term in conjunction with "creepy" degrades it to a level not befitting of what it truly is.
Also, saying "defining harassment" and then implying that the definition of it is the "nature of creepiness" feels pretty discriminatory to those who are less privileged in the area of social skills. Sometimes I don't know when I'm talking about a subject for too long, and labelling that "creepy" and implying it might be harassment seems to be crossing the line for me. On May 10, 2016 12:01 PM, "Neotarf" neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
A study published in the journal New Ideas in Psychology, unfortunately behind a paywall, reviewed by Dr. NerdLove. [1]
Some highlights:
*"*So we’re not allowed to give women compliments? – *No, telling a woman how sexy she is isn’t a compliment, especially when you don’t have that level of intimacy with her."
*"One of the keys to what made someone creepy was the potential for ambiguity. The study’s authors suggest that because one’s creep-radar is keyed towards finding potential threats, the ambiguousness of somebody’s behavior could make people uncomfortable. After all, if you’re continually wondering if this person actually poses a threat to you, you’re left in a state of anxious paralysis; you’re continually on edge trying to determine just what the appropriate reaction to the situation is. Guessing wrong can have consequences, after all; misjudge a potential threat and now you’ve made yourself vulnerable to someone who means you harm."
*"One of the most common ways guys are creepy is by ignoring issues of boundaries and demonstrating that they have more information about somebody than they should." Example from Instagram: He: "So I take it you're staying at the Excalibur?" She: "Excuse me, do you not seriously realize how f*cking creepy it is for a stranger to message a woman out of the blue insinuating he knows where she is?"
*From the comments: "Someone who comes close to that line and manages not to cross it obviously knows where it is."
[1] http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2016/05/the-science-of-being-creepy/
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap