Maybe we can boycott Dell until they issue an apology, if they havent already. On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 1:01 PM, John Vandenberg <jayvdb(a)gmail.com> wrote: -- John Vandenberg

I think it is relevant to our understanding of how the gender gap developed on WMF wikis. While I don't believe most early WMF users were misogynists, I think a significant portion of them came from work environments where lack of women was accepted as normal. So, noticing and addressing the problems from lack of female editors was not a high priority. This incident at dell reminds us of the historical issues that caused the gender disparity to become entrenched on WMF projects. It is one of the best explanations I found for the gender gap. Its not the complete reason, but does explain some aspects of the situation. IIRC, independent and me, Sue came up with similar thinking that she posted somewhere during Strategic Planning process several years back. Sydney Poore On May 12, 2012 11:01 PM, "John Vandenberg" <jayvdb(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On 5/13/12 4:40 AM, Laura Hale wrote: Hi Laura! I addressed this in a previous email, actually responding to Sydney. To each their own of course, but, I do think this situation, the Sqoot situation[1], etc. say so much about what we are dealing with in Wikimedia..including how a part of culture just "accepts" this type of joking and so forth. It's been like that since as long I can remember, and I'm just grateful that the web is providing women with a new face and tool for fighting that sexism. I also think learning from Dell's poor decisions can be learning tools for the community (and other communities) when progressing towards change. If you feel that this list has become "general feminist" in a way that makes you uncomfortable and the majority of this list feels that way too, then perhaps I'm on the wrong mailing list - as I see "solving" the gender gap as part of feminism and general gender discrimination as a whole. I also think we can learn from Dell's mistakes - chapters can make healthy decisions on who participates as speakers at their conferences and events, and of course this stresses the importance of friendly space policies and respectful work environments, which is dictated by leadership leading by example, IMHO. It also solidifies the urgency of all of the things we're doing here - whether it's writing WIkinews and Wikipedia, putting on events like WikiWomensCamp or merely having these conversations on mailing lists in a smart, civil, urgent manner. On boycotting... I think the idea of an individual, or someone broader boycotting companies that go against their ethical/professional mission is a totally awesome idea if one sees it fit and possible. I just took a look at the Dell products list[2] and I'm happy to say I don't have any "Dell in my life," though I do know folks who do and I'm sure it's not feasible to throw Dell laptops out the window and buy other products. I think one person or organization stepping back before acquiring new products and saying "does this organization match my/our personal/institutional ethics and mission?" is a really important thing. I surely support organizations that meet my ethical and personal beliefs, and do my best to avoid those who do not. I just think it's really important to share news and experiences that are impactful and meaningful to women's roles within technology, as they often overlap with women's experiences in wiki technology. And of course, if someone wishes to write about this on WikiNews go for it! Right now I'm pretty swamped with moving and wrapping up some projects, hence my slacking in my Wikinews participation right now. I do hope to utilize Wikinews again in the future as a continued outlet for this type of content, but it's not on my personal to-do list right now. If not, perhaps blogs and other tools will make up for the lack of Wikinews about this. I wish I had the answer! Sadly, I don't. I've got some dialog taking place about this on other mailing lists, and on Twitter, and I'm happy to keep this list in the loop of anything that might come from those conversations. I just think it's really important to share this type of news and situations with fellow community members, just like I would if an open source wiki was going through something that overlaps with our mission(s) or strategic plan. I think as the work day starts this upcoming week more coverage will continue to come from this situation. -Sarah [1] http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Web_startup_Sqoot_loses_sponsorship_after_faile… [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell#Products -- *Sarah Stierch* */Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow/* <https://donate.wikimedia.org/><<

On 5/13/12 4:30 AM, Sydney Poore wrote: Hi Sydney :D I do agree that this is one part of the ever elusive "what is the problem and how do we fix it?" problem. I think when you are used to a boys club, or you are used to working or being in an environment where lack of diversity is standard, one may not think it is a problem. ("This is just the way it has always been") I surely have been there in my way of thinking. I was there for quite sometime until the statistics were released about the Wikipedia gender gap and I attended the women's luncheon at Wikimania. I was just used to the boys club, which I personally fought hard to get into due to my personal interests, even in the fashion industry. (Which is primarily dominated by men telling women what women should wear, look like, etc.) It's so important to have this dialogue, as what is happening in Wikipedia is happening in the broader tech and other cultural industries. In my opinion, Wikipedia, as a free knowledge service, dictates the way that society has and is progressing culturally. Whether it's the subject matter that makes featured and good article status, or the most popular articles and the content within them. The female voice has continued to be stagnant or quiet in certain communities for far too long, and I think Wikipedia is a broader representation of that. I agree that most of our editors are not misogynists (though some are!), and that Wikipedia is very well just another product of society. We do have people in the Wikimedia community who are like that moderator/tv personality. Those contributors to the community often have their own unique and vocal minority community of followers. By encouraging the vocal majority, who does not come from that school of thought and does want to see a more diverse Wikipedia/workplace, to voice their opinions and participate in projects then we will have a change, in my opinion. And it's examples such as the Dell Summit that makes me want to make that voice even stronger. -Sarah -- *Sarah Stierch* */Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow/* <https://donate.wikimedia.org/><<

On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 12:57 AM, Sarah Stierch &lt;sarah.stierch(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Based on what I have seen so far, adding this to the Dell article on Wikipedia would be undue weight (and a corporate attack) unless there was a consistent pattern of Dell selecting twits like this to MC their events. Tom has mentioned that Dell has used sexist advertising in the past, which would be more directly relevant as it is not a once of mistake. However even that would need to be put in context of the sector to see whether their use of sexist marketing is worse than others. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Della_computers Has there been any response from Dell about this, on twitter? Or did they bunker down and pretend it didnt happen? How have they responded to other criticisms..? A wikinews investigative journalism story would be a great way to bring more facts about this to the public domain. -- John Vandenberg

On 13 May 2012 23:36, Cynthia Ashley-Nelson &lt;cindamuse(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Have we any sources other than the blog post? -- Tom Morris <http://tommorris.org/>

On 5/13/12 6:39 PM, Tom Morris wrote: Right now Molly Wood's C-net article and video is the best: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57431869-256/why-we-need-to-keep-talking-… I think this story will be picking up, at least in the States, as the work week starts up. I'm surely going to keep my Twitter coverage up on this, and I hope others will as well, as blogging, social media etc are great tools to getting "legit" media to cover the subject. I know there are a lot of tings in Danish, but alas, I'm not able to do translation right now (I'm not at a place physically where I can do that right now) so perhaps our Danish gender-gap crew can help out with that. I wonder how Danish Wikipedia will handle it? -Sarah -- *Sarah Stierch* */Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow/* <https://donate.wikimedia.org/><<

On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Pete Forsyth &lt;peteforsyth(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: I hope this is a suitable place to start the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Gender_Studies#Del… -- John Vandenberg

On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 8:36 AM, Cynthia Ashley-Nelson &lt;cindamuse(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Dell regional manager apologised, and said it was intended to be satirical. http://www.business.dk/digital/dells-danske-direktoer-vi-er-superkede-af-se… other comments on the web indicate it was intended to be comedy. http://hackerne.ws/item?id=3966706 stupid none the less. It seems Mads often uses bad taste. http://mediawatch.dk/artikel/mads-christensen-undskylder-eb-klumme Also worth noting, the Danish Wikipedia description of Christiane Vejlø (the tweeter) is very similar to that of Mads Christensen, so they are in the same sector, as is Christiane's husband, and this could have some bearing on how she wrote her piece about Mads. https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiane_Vejl%C3%B8 I'd recommend working with someone who speaks Danish in order to get a good feel for the reliable sources about this topic before adding negative content to Wikipedia. -- John Vandenberg

Dell posted an apology on their Google+ page yesterday: https://plus.google.com/117161668189080869053/posts/5Zg5FdFEydi "During a Dell-hosted customer and partner summit in Copenhagen in April, well-known public speaker and moderator, Mads Christensen, made a number of inappropriate and insensitive remarks about women. Dell sincerely apologizes for these comments...Going forward, we will be more careful selecting speakers at Dell events." Although as CNET's Molly Wood points out, it falls a bit short of being an adequate apology: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57434780-256/dell-apologizes-for-hiring-s… "Comments on the Google+ apology have noted that it's not a particularly visible apology, which is true; it's also a little tepid, primarily touting Dell's female-forward initiatives rather than pointing out any actions it's taken in response to that incident (a reprimand? a letter of apology to the women -- and men -- in the audience that day?). Nevertheless, it's something, and it's a better apology than the one Danish Director Nicolai Moresco issued shortly after the event." --Elaine (By the way--hello everyone! I don't usually post to this list, which I suppose I've been lurking on for some time now, but I've been semi-following this thread and I happened to come across this coverage, so I thought I'd make myself useful and post an update :) I currently intern in the WMF's communications department, and you can also find me at User:Revolutionetc) On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 2:56 AM, Ole Palnatoke Andersen &lt;palnatoke(a)gmail.com > > > On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 2:09 AM, John Vandenberg &lt;jayvdb(a)gmail.com> >> ... >> >> Also worth noting, the Danish Wikipedia description of Christiane >> Vejlø (the tweeter) is very similar to that of Mads Christensen, so >> they are in the same sector, as is Christiane's husband, and this >> could have some bearing on how she wrote her piece about Mads. >> >> https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiane_Vejl%C3%B8 >> > > Christiane Vejlø and Mads Christensen are more or less in the same sector > (lifestyle and such); Christiane Vejlø's husband is a stand up comedian. > > Regards, > Ole > > Disclaimer: I have participated in a social event with Christiane a couple > of years ago. Never met her husband nor Mads. > > > > -- > http://palnatoke.org * @palnatoke * +4522934588 > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > >

Hi Elaine! Thanks for posting those updates. yeah, Google+ strange that they didn't post something on their website or release a statement in a more broader known format. Glad to see you out of your lurking! -Sarah On 5/15/12 6:50 PM, Elaine Mao wrote: -- *Sarah Stierch* */Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow/* <https://donate.wikimedia.org/><<