Dell held their annual summit this week in Europe. They hired a moderator for the opening day named Mads Christensen who is a media personality that is described as "very conservative" and this also is regarding his views towards women.
Excerpts from a blog by a woman who attended:
" So here I am at Dell's huge and very professional summit with founder Michael Dell, top people from Microsoft and Intel, impressive power points, expensive commercials, matching polyester ties and all that jazz, and then the -- by Dell chosen -- moderator starts to rejoice the lack of women in the room. /"The IT business is one of the last frontiers that manages to keep women out. The quota of women to men in your business is sound and healthy"/ he says. /"What are you actually doing here?"/ he adds to the few women who are actually present in the room./"
"/ Dell's moderator continues talking about his two Rolex watches and he then presents the next speaker from Intel. After the break Mads Christensen shares with us his whole "show" about the bitchy women who want's to steal the power in politics, boards and the home. "Science" he calls it and mentions that all the great inventions come from men. /"We can thank women for the rolling pin"/ he adds. And then the moderator of the day finishes of by asking all (men) in the room to promise him that they will go home and say "Shut up bitch!"."
http://elektronista.dk/kommentar/dresscode-blue-tie-and-male/
I feel sick to my stomach.
-Sarah
Not sure what this has to do with Wikis, but its pretty sad all the same. It was a month ago, and not nearly enough has been made about it.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57431869-256/why-we-need-to-keep-talking-a...
it is getting fresh coverage on reddit too. Not sure why its revived, but it cant hurt to draw extra attention to this.
http://www.reddit.com/r/business/comments/tk24s/dell_denmark_had_wellknown_d...
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
Dell held their annual summit this week in Europe. They hired a moderator for the opening day named Mads Christensen who is a media personality that is described as "very conservative" and this also is regarding his views towards women.
Excerpts from a blog by a woman who attended:
" So here I am at Dell’s huge and very professional summit with founder Michael Dell, top people from Microsoft and Intel, impressive power points, expensive commercials, matching polyester ties and all that jazz, and then the – by Dell chosen – moderator starts to rejoice the lack of women in the room. “The IT business is one of the last frontiers that manages to keep women out. The quota of women to men in your business is sound and healthy” he says. “What are you actually doing here?” he adds to the few women who are actually present in the room. "
" Dell’s moderator continues talking about his two Rolex watches and he then presents the next speaker from Intel. After the break Mads Christensen shares with us his whole “show” about the bitchy women who want’s to steal the power in politics, boards and the home. “Science” he calls it and mentions that all the great inventions come from men. “We can thank women for the rolling pin” he adds. And then the moderator of the day finishes of by asking all (men) in the room to promise him that they will go home and say “Shut up bitch!”."
http://elektronista.dk/kommentar/dresscode-blue-tie-and-male/
I feel sick to my stomach.
-Sarah
-- Sarah Stierch Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow
Mind the gap! Support Wikipedia women's outreach: donate today<<
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Maybe we can boycott Dell until they issue an apology, if they havent already.
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 1:01 PM, John Vandenberg jayvdb@gmail.com wrote:
Not sure what this has to do with Wikis, but its pretty sad all the same. It was a month ago, and not nearly enough has been made about it.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57431869-256/why-we-need-to-keep-talking-a...
it is getting fresh coverage on reddit too. Not sure why its revived, but it cant hurt to draw extra attention to this.
http://www.reddit.com/r/business/comments/tk24s/dell_denmark_had_wellknown_d...
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
Dell held their annual summit this week in Europe. They hired a moderator for the opening day named Mads Christensen who is a media personality that is described as "very conservative" and this also is regarding his views towards women.
Excerpts from a blog by a woman who attended:
" So here I am at Dell’s huge and very professional summit with founder Michael Dell, top people from Microsoft and Intel, impressive power points, expensive commercials, matching polyester ties and all that jazz, and then the – by Dell chosen – moderator starts to rejoice the lack of women in the room. “The IT business is one of the last frontiers that manages to keep women out. The quota of women to men in your business is sound and healthy” he says. “What are you actually doing here?” he adds to the few women who are actually present in the room. "
" Dell’s moderator continues talking about his two Rolex watches and he then presents the next speaker from Intel. After the break Mads Christensen shares with us his whole “show” about the bitchy women who want’s to steal the power in politics, boards and the home. “Science” he calls it and mentions that all the great inventions come from men. “We can thank women for the rolling pin” he adds. And then the moderator of the day finishes of by asking all (men) in the room to promise him that they will go home and say “Shut up bitch!”."
http://elektronista.dk/kommentar/dresscode-blue-tie-and-male/
I feel sick to my stomach.
-Sarah
-- Sarah Stierch Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow
Mind the gap! Support Wikipedia women's outreach: donate today<<
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- John Vandenberg
Maybe some one can write a Wikinews story about it...
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 1:01 PM, John Vandenberg jayvdb@gmail.com wrote:
Not sure what this has to do with Wikis, but its pretty sad all the same. It was a month ago, and not nearly enough has been made about it.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57431869-256/why-we-need-to-keep-talking-a...
it is getting fresh coverage on reddit too. Not sure why its revived, but it cant hurt to draw extra attention to this.
http://www.reddit.com/r/business/comments/tk24s/dell_denmark_had_wellknown_d...
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
Dell held their annual summit this week in Europe. They hired a moderator for the opening day named Mads Christensen who is a media personality
that
is described as "very conservative" and this also is regarding his views towards women.
Excerpts from a blog by a woman who attended:
" So here I am at Dell’s huge and very professional summit with founder Michael Dell, top people from Microsoft and Intel, impressive power
points,
expensive commercials, matching polyester ties and all that jazz, and
then
the – by Dell chosen – moderator starts to rejoice the lack of women in
the
room. “The IT business is one of the last frontiers that manages to keep women out. The quota of women to men in your business is sound and healthy” he says. “What are you actually doing here?” he adds to the few women who are actually present in the room. "
" Dell’s moderator continues talking about his two Rolex watches and he
then
presents the next speaker from Intel. After the break Mads Christensen shares with us his whole “show” about the bitchy women who want’s to
steal
the power in politics, boards and the home. “Science” he calls it and mentions that all the great inventions come from men. “We can thank women for the rolling pin” he adds. And then the moderator of the day
finishes of
by asking all (men) in the room to promise him that they will go home and say “Shut up bitch!”."
http://elektronista.dk/kommentar/dresscode-blue-tie-and-male/
I feel sick to my stomach.
-Sarah
-- Sarah Stierch Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow
Mind the gap! Support Wikipedia women's outreach: donate today<<
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- John Vandenberg
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
I think it is relevant to our understanding of how the gender gap developed on WMF wikis.
While I don't believe most early WMF users were misogynists, I think a significant portion of them came from work environments where lack of women was accepted as normal. So, noticing and addressing the problems from lack of female editors was not a high priority. This incident at dell reminds us of the historical issues that caused the gender disparity to become entrenched on WMF projects.
It is one of the best explanations I found for the gender gap. Its not the complete reason, but does explain some aspects of the situation. IIRC, independent and me, Sue came up with similar thinking that she posted somewhere during Strategic Planning process several years back.
Sydney Poore On May 12, 2012 11:01 PM, "John Vandenberg" jayvdb@gmail.com wrote:
Not sure what this has to do with Wikis, but its pretty sad all the same. It was a month ago, and not nearly enough has been made about it.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57431869-256/why-we-need-to-keep-talking-a...
it is getting fresh coverage on reddit too. Not sure why its revived, but it cant hurt to draw extra attention to this.
http://www.reddit.com/r/business/comments/tk24s/dell_denmark_had_wellknown_d...
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
Dell held their annual summit this week in Europe. They hired a moderator for the opening day named Mads Christensen who is a media personality
that
is described as "very conservative" and this also is regarding his views towards women.
Excerpts from a blog by a woman who attended:
" So here I am at Dell’s huge and very professional summit with founder Michael Dell, top people from Microsoft and Intel, impressive power
points,
expensive commercials, matching polyester ties and all that jazz, and
then
the – by Dell chosen – moderator starts to rejoice the lack of women in
the
room. “The IT business is one of the last frontiers that manages to keep women out. The quota of women to men in your business is sound and healthy” he says. “What are you actually doing here?” he adds to the few women who are actually present in the room. "
" Dell’s moderator continues talking about his two Rolex watches and he
then
presents the next speaker from Intel. After the break Mads Christensen shares with us his whole “show” about the bitchy women who want’s to
steal
the power in politics, boards and the home. “Science” he calls it and mentions that all the great inventions come from men. “We can thank women for the rolling pin” he adds. And then the moderator of the day
finishes of
by asking all (men) in the room to promise him that they will go home and say “Shut up bitch!”."
http://elektronista.dk/kommentar/dresscode-blue-tie-and-male/
I feel sick to my stomach.
-Sarah
-- Sarah Stierch Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow
Mind the gap! Support Wikipedia women's outreach: donate today<<
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- John Vandenberg
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Sydney Poore sydney.poore@gmail.comwrote:
I think it is relevant to our understanding of how the gender gap developed on WMF wikis.
That was hard to pick up from the e-mail. :( I too was baffled as to how this connected. I still don't see how this connects to the gender gap. What are we supposed to do with it? What can learn from it? Is it a call for chapters to boycott Dell? (If so, nothing was posted to the chapters list, though maybe something posted to Internal.) Was she asking for women to write about it for Wikinews? (Wikinews loves women's contents and I know they like women contributors and wish they had more of them.) Sexism happens all the time at tech conferences and online. "There is something wrong on the Internet!" has practically become an internet meme in its own right. Context free, it is confusing... because it makes this list seem like a general feminist list to air grievance. I can get that any time I want in many other places. : /
So Sarah, you've got women and men who want to do something in response to Dell's latest behavior. How do you want us to assist and what are going to offer to assist us in that?
On 5/13/12 4:40 AM, Laura Hale wrote:
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Sydney Poore <sydney.poore@gmail.com mailto:sydney.poore@gmail.com> wrote:
I think it is relevant to our understanding of how the gender gap developed on WMF wikis.That was hard to pick up from the e-mail. :( I too was baffled as to how this connected. I still don't see how this connects to the gender gap. What are we supposed to do with it? What can learn from it? Is it a call for chapters to boycott Dell? (If so, nothing was posted to the chapters list, though maybe something posted to Internal.) Was she asking for women to write about it for Wikinews? (Wikinews loves women's contents and I know they like women contributors and wish they had more of them.) Sexism happens all the time at tech conferences and online. "There is something wrong on the Internet!" has practically become an internet meme in its own right. Context free, it is confusing... because it makes this list seem like a general feminist list to air grievance. I can get that any time I want in many other places. : /
Hi Laura! I addressed this in a previous email, actually responding to Sydney. To each their own of course, but, I do think this situation, the Sqoot situation[1], etc. say so much about what we are dealing with in Wikimedia..including how a part of culture just "accepts" this type of joking and so forth. It's been like that since as long I can remember, and I'm just grateful that the web is providing women with a new face and tool for fighting that sexism. I also think learning from Dell's poor decisions can be learning tools for the community (and other communities) when progressing towards change.
If you feel that this list has become "general feminist" in a way that makes you uncomfortable and the majority of this list feels that way too, then perhaps I'm on the wrong mailing list - as I see "solving" the gender gap as part of feminism and general gender discrimination as a whole. I also think we can learn from Dell's mistakes - chapters can make healthy decisions on who participates as speakers at their conferences and events, and of course this stresses the importance of friendly space policies and respectful work environments, which is dictated by leadership leading by example, IMHO. It also solidifies the urgency of all of the things we're doing here - whether it's writing WIkinews and Wikipedia, putting on events like WikiWomensCamp or merely having these conversations on mailing lists in a smart, civil, urgent manner.
On boycotting... I think the idea of an individual, or someone broader boycotting companies that go against their ethical/professional mission is a totally awesome idea if one sees it fit and possible. I just took a look at the Dell products list[2] and I'm happy to say I don't have any "Dell in my life," though I do know folks who do and I'm sure it's not feasible to throw Dell laptops out the window and buy other products. I think one person or organization stepping back before acquiring new products and saying "does this organization match my/our personal/institutional ethics and mission?" is a really important thing. I surely support organizations that meet my ethical and personal beliefs, and do my best to avoid those who do not.
I just think it's really important to share news and experiences that are impactful and meaningful to women's roles within technology, as they often overlap with women's experiences in wiki technology. And of course, if someone wishes to write about this on WikiNews go for it! Right now I'm pretty swamped with moving and wrapping up some projects, hence my slacking in my Wikinews participation right now. I do hope to utilize Wikinews again in the future as a continued outlet for this type of content, but it's not on my personal to-do list right now. If not, perhaps blogs and other tools will make up for the lack of Wikinews about this.
So Sarah, you've got women and men who want to do something in response to Dell's latest behavior. How do you want us to assist and what are going to offer to assist us in that?
I wish I had the answer! Sadly, I don't. I've got some dialog taking place about this on other mailing lists, and on Twitter, and I'm happy to keep this list in the loop of anything that might come from those conversations. I just think it's really important to share this type of news and situations with fellow community members, just like I would if an open source wiki was going through something that overlaps with our mission(s) or strategic plan. I think as the work day starts this upcoming week more coverage will continue to come from this situation.
-Sarah
[1] http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Web_startup_Sqoot_loses_sponsorship_after_failed... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell#Products
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 4:40 AM, Laura Hale laura@fanhistory.com wrote:
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Sydney Poore sydney.poore@gmail.comwrote:
I think it is relevant to our understanding of how the gender gap developed on WMF wikis.
That was hard to pick up from the e-mail. :( I too was baffled as to how this connected. I still don't see how this connects to the gender gap. What are we supposed to do with it? What can learn from it? Is it a call for chapters to boycott Dell? (If so, nothing was posted to the chapters list, though maybe something posted to Internal.) Was she asking for women to write about it for Wikinews? (Wikinews loves women's contents and I know they like women contributors and wish they had more of them.) Sexism happens all the time at tech conferences and online. "There is something wrong on the Internet!" has practically become an internet meme in its own right. Context free, it is confusing... because it makes this list seem like a general feminist list to air grievance. I can get that any time I want in many other places. : /
So Sarah, you've got women and men who want to do something in response to Dell's latest behavior. How do you want us to assist and what are going to offer to assist us in that?
It's relevant because Wikipedia's gender gap doesn't exist in a vacuum, and neither its causes nor its solutions will be unique to Wikipedia. The Dell debacle is a really perfect example of the ignorance and lack of sensitivity to this issue that pervades the tech sector, both of which are quite strong factors in the gender gap on our own projects.
On 5/13/12 4:30 AM, Sydney Poore wrote:
I think it is relevant to our understanding of how the gender gap developed on WMF wikis.
While I don't believe most early WMF users were misogynists, I think a significant portion of them came from work environments where lack of women was accepted as normal. So, noticing and addressing the problems from lack of female editors was not a high priority. This incident at dell reminds us of the historical issues that caused the gender disparity to become entrenched on WMF projects.
It is one of the best explanations I found for the gender gap. Its not the complete reason, but does explain some aspects of the situation. IIRC, independent and me, Sue came up with similar thinking that she posted somewhere during Strategic Planning process several years back.
Sydney Poore
Hi Sydney :D
I do agree that this is one part of the ever elusive "what is the problem and how do we fix it?" problem. I think when you are used to a boys club, or you are used to working or being in an environment where lack of diversity is standard, one may not think it is a problem. ("This is just the way it has always been") I surely have been there in my way of thinking. I was there for quite sometime until the statistics were released about the Wikipedia gender gap and I attended the women's luncheon at Wikimania. I was just used to the boys club, which I personally fought hard to get into due to my personal interests, even in the fashion industry. (Which is primarily dominated by men telling women what women should wear, look like, etc.)
It's so important to have this dialogue, as what is happening in Wikipedia is happening in the broader tech and other cultural industries. In my opinion, Wikipedia, as a free knowledge service, dictates the way that society has and is progressing culturally. Whether it's the subject matter that makes featured and good article status, or the most popular articles and the content within them. The female voice has continued to be stagnant or quiet in certain communities for far too long, and I think Wikipedia is a broader representation of that. I agree that most of our editors are not misogynists (though some are!), and that Wikipedia is very well just another product of society. We do have people in the Wikimedia community who are like that moderator/tv personality. Those contributors to the community often have their own unique and vocal minority community of followers. By encouraging the vocal majority, who does not come from that school of thought and does want to see a more diverse Wikipedia/workplace, to voice their opinions and participate in projects then we will have a change, in my opinion.
And it's examples such as the Dell Summit that makes me want to make that voice even stronger.
-Sarah
On 5/12/12 11:01 PM, John Vandenberg wrote:
Not sure what this has to do with Wikis, but its pretty sad all the same. It was a month ago, and not nearly enough has been made about it.
Hi John! Again, if people are not happy with other posts that are related to the broader problem and not specifically Wikipedia getting posted, please let me know. I must admit, I'd be quite disappointed, but, I often assume that people interested in solving the gender gap here are interested in the broader gender gap in culture. I do believe that situations such as the Dell Summit and Sqoot[1] do speak a lot about culture, community and one part of the multifaceted problem in Wikipedia.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57431869-256/why-we-need-to-keep-talking-a...
it is getting fresh coverage on reddit too. Not sure why its revived, but it cant hurt to draw extra attention to this.
That was posted on May 11. I know when I attend conferences it often takes upwards of over a week for me to write follow up emails, posts, blogs, etc. So perhaps this is just a product of that. A few pals of mine sent me the Elecktronista post.. It's also often very hard to put experiences like this into words (let alone English when it isn't your second language), and I could feel the frustration in the blog. I was rather taken aback by it, hence a less detailed personal email from me about the Elecktronista post.
Glad to see more reliable sources (c-net), could be nice to have this added to the Dell article if people see it fitting. Or perhaps if we gather enough content a "Epic sexist fails at Dell" article is warranted ;)
-Sarah
http://www.reddit.com/r/business/comments/tk24s/dell_denmark_had_wellknown_d...
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Sarah Stierchsarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
Dell held their annual summit this week in Europe. They hired a moderator for the opening day named Mads Christensen who is a media personality that is described as "very conservative" and this also is regarding his views towards women.
Excerpts from a blog by a woman who attended:
" So here I am at Dell’s huge and very professional summit with founder Michael Dell, top people from Microsoft and Intel, impressive power points, expensive commercials, matching polyester ties and all that jazz, and then the – by Dell chosen – moderator starts to rejoice the lack of women in the room. “The IT business is one of the last frontiers that manages to keep women out. The quota of women to men in your business is sound and healthy” he says. “What are you actually doing here?” he adds to the few women who are actually present in the room. "
" Dell’s moderator continues talking about his two Rolex watches and he then presents the next speaker from Intel. After the break Mads Christensen shares with us his whole “show” about the bitchy women who want’s to steal the power in politics, boards and the home. “Science” he calls it and mentions that all the great inventions come from men. “We can thank women for the rolling pin” he adds. And then the moderator of the day finishes of by asking all (men) in the room to promise him that they will go home and say “Shut up bitch!”."
http://elektronista.dk/kommentar/dresscode-blue-tie-and-male/
I feel sick to my stomach.
-Sarah
-- Sarah Stierch Wikimedia Foundation Community Fellow
Mind the gap! Support Wikipedia women's outreach: donate today<<
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 12:57 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
.. Glad to see more reliable sources (c-net), could be nice to have this added to the Dell article if people see it fitting.
Based on what I have seen so far, adding this to the Dell article on Wikipedia would be undue weight (and a corporate attack) unless there was a consistent pattern of Dell selecting twits like this to MC their events.
Tom has mentioned that Dell has used sexist advertising in the past, which would be more directly relevant as it is not a once of mistake. However even that would need to be put in context of the sector to see whether their use of sexist marketing is worse than others.
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Della_computers
Or perhaps if we gather enough content a "Epic sexist fails at Dell" article is warranted ;)
Has there been any response from Dell about this, on twitter? Or did they bunker down and pretend it didnt happen? How have they responded to other criticisms..?
A wikinews investigative journalism story would be a great way to bring more facts about this to the public domain.
-- John Vandenberg
I would think it could certainly be added to the Mads Christensen article on Wikipedia, found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mads_Barner-Christensen.
Cindy
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 3:23 PM, John Vandenberg jayvdb@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 12:57 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
.. Glad to see more reliable sources (c-net), could be nice to have this
added
to the Dell article if people see it fitting.
Based on what I have seen so far, adding this to the Dell article on Wikipedia would be undue weight (and a corporate attack) unless there was a consistent pattern of Dell selecting twits like this to MC their events.
Tom has mentioned that Dell has used sexist advertising in the past, which would be more directly relevant as it is not a once of mistake. However even that would need to be put in context of the sector to see whether their use of sexist marketing is worse than others.
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Della_computers
Or perhaps if we gather enough content a "Epic sexist fails at Dell" article is warranted ;)
Has there been any response from Dell about this, on twitter? Or did they bunker down and pretend it didnt happen? How have they responded to other criticisms..?
A wikinews investigative journalism story would be a great way to bring more facts about this to the public domain.
-- John Vandenberg
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
On 13 May 2012 23:36, Cynthia Ashley-Nelson cindamuse@gmail.com wrote:
I would think it could certainly be added to the Mads Christensen article on Wikipedia, found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mads_Barner-Christensen.
Have we any sources other than the blog post?
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Tom Morris tom@tommorris.org wrote:
Have we any sources other than the blog post?
There's a bit more here: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57431869-256/why-we-need-to-keep-talking-a...
On 5/13/12 6:39 PM, Tom Morris wrote:
On 13 May 2012 23:36, Cynthia Ashley-Nelsoncindamuse@gmail.com wrote:
I would think it could certainly be added to the Mads Christensen article on Wikipedia, found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mads_Barner-Christensen.
Have we any sources other than the blog post?
Right now Molly Wood's C-net article and video is the best: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57431869-256/why-we-need-to-keep-talking-a...
I think this story will be picking up, at least in the States, as the work week starts up. I'm surely going to keep my Twitter coverage up on this, and I hope others will as well, as blogging, social media etc are great tools to getting "legit" media to cover the subject. I know there are a lot of tings in Danish, but alas, I'm not able to do translation right now (I'm not at a place physically where I can do that right now) so perhaps our Danish gender-gap crew can help out with that.
I wonder how Danish Wikipedia will handle it?
-Sarah
On May 13, 2012 5:40 PM, "Tom Morris" tom@tommorris.org wrote:
Have we any sources other than the blog post?
Yes -- the cnet column, among others. But isn't this the sort of discussion that belongs on article talk pages, and maybe a wikiproject talk page?
Don't get me wrong -- I'm glad this was posted to the list, and very interested in people's perspectives on how it relates to general gender and tech issues, and what kind of action it might warrant.
Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
On May 13, 2012 5:40 PM, "Tom Morris" tom@tommorris.org wrote:
Have we any sources other than the blog post?
Yes -- the cnet column, among others. But isn't this the sort of discussion that belongs on article talk pages, and maybe a wikiproject talk page?
I hope this is a suitable place to start the discussion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Gender_Studies#Dell...
On 5/13/12 8:33 PM, John Vandenberg wrote:
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Pete Forsythpeteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
On May 13, 2012 5:40 PM, "Tom Morris"tom@tommorris.org wrote:
Have we any sources other than the blog post?
Yes -- the cnet column, among others. But isn't this the sort of discussion that belongs on article talk pages, and maybe a wikiproject talk page?
I hope this is a suitable place to start the discussion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Gender_Studies#Dell...
I'd suggest also bringing it up on WP Feminism if there is interest. Gender studies has become virtually inactive (i think Carol talked about this a few months ago). I'm not really sure how to deal with that issue of inactivity, but, I can't deal with it this second that's for sure.
-Sarah
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 8:36 AM, Cynthia Ashley-Nelson cindamuse@gmail.com wrote:
I would think it could certainly be added to the Mads Christensen article on Wikipedia, found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mads_Barner-Christensen.
Dell regional manager apologised, and said it was intended to be satirical.
http://www.business.dk/digital/dells-danske-direktoer-vi-er-superkede-af-sex...
other comments on the web indicate it was intended to be comedy.
http://hackerne.ws/item?id=3966706
stupid none the less. It seems Mads often uses bad taste.
http://mediawatch.dk/artikel/mads-christensen-undskylder-eb-klumme
Also worth noting, the Danish Wikipedia description of Christiane Vejlø (the tweeter) is very similar to that of Mads Christensen, so they are in the same sector, as is Christiane's husband, and this could have some bearing on how she wrote her piece about Mads.
https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiane_Vejl%C3%B8
I'd recommend working with someone who speaks Danish in order to get a good feel for the reliable sources about this topic before adding negative content to Wikipedia.
-- John Vandenberg
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 2:09 AM, John Vandenberg jayvdb@gmail.com wrote:
... Also worth noting, the Danish Wikipedia description of Christiane Vejlø (the tweeter) is very similar to that of Mads Christensen, so they are in the same sector, as is Christiane's husband, and this could have some bearing on how she wrote her piece about Mads.
Christiane Vejlø and Mads Christensen are more or less in the same sector (lifestyle and such); Christiane Vejlø's husband is a stand up comedian.
Regards, Ole
Disclaimer: I have participated in a social event with Christiane a couple of years ago. Never met her husband nor Mads.
Dell posted an apology on their Google+ page yesterday: https://plus.google.com/117161668189080869053/posts/5Zg5FdFEydi
"During a Dell-hosted customer and partner summit in Copenhagen in April, well-known public speaker and moderator, Mads Christensen, made a number of inappropriate and insensitive remarks about women. Dell sincerely apologizes for these comments...Going forward, we will be more careful selecting speakers at Dell events."
Although as CNET's Molly Wood points out, it falls a bit short of being an adequate apology: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57434780-256/dell-apologizes-for-hiring-se...
"Comments on the Google+ apology have noted that it's not a particularly visible apology, which is true; it's also a little tepid, primarily touting Dell's female-forward initiatives rather than pointing out any actions it's taken in response to that incident (a reprimand? a letter of apology to the women -- and men -- in the audience that day?). Nevertheless, it's something, and it's a better apology than the one Danish Director Nicolai Moresco issued shortly after the event."
--Elaine (By the way--hello everyone! I don't usually post to this list, which I suppose I've been lurking on for some time now, but I've been semi-following this thread and I happened to come across this coverage, so I thought I'd make myself useful and post an update :) I currently intern in the WMF's communications department, and you can also find me at User:Revolutionetc)
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 2:56 AM, Ole Palnatoke Andersen <palnatoke@gmail.com
wrote:
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 2:09 AM, John Vandenberg jayvdb@gmail.com wrote:
...
Also worth noting, the Danish Wikipedia description of Christiane Vejlø (the tweeter) is very similar to that of Mads Christensen, so they are in the same sector, as is Christiane's husband, and this could have some bearing on how she wrote her piece about Mads.
Christiane Vejlø and Mads Christensen are more or less in the same sector (lifestyle and such); Christiane Vejlø's husband is a stand up comedian.
Regards, Ole
Disclaimer: I have participated in a social event with Christiane a couple of years ago. Never met her husband nor Mads.
-- http://palnatoke.org * @palnatoke * +4522934588
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Welcome Elaine, and thanks for keeping this moving! The comments on that G+ are very informative.
I'd love to see some reliable sources to back up that a) it was an attempt at humour (http://www.comon.dk/art/216015/kvinder-skal-holde-kaeft-boern-skal-have-vaab... ?) b) his humour has been regularly found to be in bad taste (http://mediawatch.dk/artikel/mads-christensen-undskylder-eb-klumme ?)
part (b) establishes that this event is just a once off misunderstanding
still no feedback at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Gender_Studies#Dell...
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Elaine Mao elainekmao@gmail.com wrote:
Dell posted an apology on their Google+ page yesterday: https://plus.google.com/117161668189080869053/posts/5Zg5FdFEydi
"During a Dell-hosted customer and partner summit in Copenhagen in April, well-known public speaker and moderator, Mads Christensen, made a number of inappropriate and insensitive remarks about women. Dell sincerely apologizes for these comments...Going forward, we will be more careful selecting speakers at Dell events."
Although as CNET's Molly Wood points out, it falls a bit short of being an adequate apology: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57434780-256/dell-apologizes-for-hiring-se...
"Comments on the Google+ apology have noted that it's not a particularly visible apology, which is true; it's also a little tepid, primarily touting Dell's female-forward initiatives rather than pointing out any actions it's taken in response to that incident (a reprimand? a letter of apology to the women -- and men -- in the audience that day?). Nevertheless, it's something, and it's a better apology than the one Danish Director Nicolai Moresco issued shortly after the event."
--Elaine (By the way--hello everyone! I don't usually post to this list, which I suppose I've been lurking on for some time now, but I've been semi-following this thread and I happened to come across this coverage, so I thought I'd make myself useful and post an update :) I currently intern in the WMF's communications department, and you can also find me at User:Revolutionetc)
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 2:56 AM, Ole Palnatoke Andersen palnatoke@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 2:09 AM, John Vandenberg jayvdb@gmail.com wrote:
...
Also worth noting, the Danish Wikipedia description of Christiane Vejlø (the tweeter) is very similar to that of Mads Christensen, so they are in the same sector, as is Christiane's husband, and this could have some bearing on how she wrote her piece about Mads.
Christiane Vejlø and Mads Christensen are more or less in the same sector (lifestyle and such); Christiane Vejlø's husband is a stand up comedian.
Regards, Ole
Disclaimer: I have participated in a social event with Christiane a couple of years ago. Never met her husband nor Mads.
-- http://palnatoke.org * @palnatoke * +4522934588
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Hi Elaine! Thanks for posting those updates. yeah, Google+ strange that they didn't post something on their website or release a statement in a more broader known format.
Glad to see you out of your lurking!
-Sarah
On 5/15/12 6:50 PM, Elaine Mao wrote:
Dell posted an apology on their Google+ page yesterday: https://plus.google.com/117161668189080869053/posts/5Zg5FdFEydi
"During a Dell-hosted customer and partner summit in Copenhagen in April, well-known public speaker and moderator, Mads Christensen, made a number of inappropriate and insensitive remarks about women. Dell sincerely apologizes for these comments...Going forward, we will be more careful selecting speakers at Dell events."
Although as CNET's Molly Wood points out, it falls a bit short of being an adequate apology: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57434780-256/dell-apologizes-for-hiring-se... http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57434780-256/dell-apologizes-for-hiring-sexist-summit-moderator/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=title
"Comments on the Google+ apology have noted that it's not a particularly visible apology, which is true; it's also a little tepid, primarily touting Dell's female-forward initiatives rather than pointing out any actions it's taken in response to that incident (a reprimand? a letter of apology to the women -- and men -- in the audience that day?). Nevertheless, it's something, and it's a better apology than the one Danish Director Nicolai Moresco issued shortly after the event."
--Elaine (By the way--hello everyone! I don't usually post to this list, which I suppose I've been lurking on for some time now, but I've been semi-following this thread and I happened to come across this coverage, so I thought I'd make myself useful and post an update :) I currently intern in the WMF's communications department, and you can also find me at User:Revolutionetc)
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 2:56 AM, Ole Palnatoke Andersen <palnatoke@gmail.com mailto:palnatoke@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 2:09 AM, John Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com <mailto:jayvdb@gmail.com>> wrote: ... Also worth noting, the Danish Wikipedia description of Christiane Vejlø (the tweeter) is very similar to that of Mads Christensen, so they are in the same sector, as is Christiane's husband, and this could have some bearing on how she wrote her piece about Mads. https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiane_Vejl%C3%B8 Christiane Vejlø and Mads Christensen are more or less in the same sector (lifestyle and such); Christiane Vejlø's husband is a stand up comedian. Regards, Ole Disclaimer: I have participated in a social event with Christiane a couple of years ago. Never met her husband nor Mads. -- http://palnatoke.org * @palnatoke * +4522934588 <tel:%2B4522934588> _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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On Sunday, 13 May 2012 at 03:20, Sarah Stierch wrote:
Dell held their annual summit this week in Europe. They hired a moderator for the opening day named Mads Christensen who is a media personality that is described as "very conservative" and this also is regarding his views towards women.
Wait, what? This is the same Dell that back in 2009 decided to produce a line of netbooks called "Della" specifically targeted towards women, and were promptly savaged for being retrograde sexist idiots.
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Della_computers http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1137328/dell-marketing-tactic-sexis... http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/11/dell-unveils-della-website-to-help-women-... http://blog.laptopmag.com/dear-della-sexism-doesnt-sell-laptops
So after that drubbing, they have what the Reddit post describes as a "well-known Danish misogynist commentator" to emcee their event.
This isn't so much shooting themselves in the foot as machine gunning their whole leg off.
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 4:20 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.comwrote:
Dell held their annual summit this week in Europe. They hired a moderator for the opening day named Mads Christensen who is a media personality that is described as "very conservative" and this also is regarding his views towards women.
Excerpts from a blog by a woman who attended...
When Christiane posted this on Twitter, Dell lost quite a bit of goodwill in the Danish Twittersphere.
Regards, Ole