One of the most recurrent warnings in Wikipedia is "this is not a forum". Wouldn't it be good to have a forum in the village pump? Or even an own irc channel easily accesible?
In Spain we have a refrain: "Hablando se entiende la gente" (talking is the way to work things out). In the village pump, we can interchange information, but not emotion at all. We can't freely express ourselves and we all feel as if we were in a school exam instead of feeling comfortable as with a group of friends. We have to weigh words carefully and we are punished if we don't. That may be good for people who are used to it, but not for everybody, certainly.
Sometimes we know somebody professionally (in this case, as a Wikipedia editor) but we know nothing about that someone personally, and, when we really know that person, we notice that we can start talking with no prejudices, and that we even need less words to express ourselves. I think that's one of the reasons why women like social networks so much. They can *feel* people, not just reading their arguments. Of course, I don't mean to give personal data, like real name, profession, etc., but just to talk in another level, more personal. Ask any professional and they'll tell you that emotions are a very important part of communication at a personal level. It would be an effective way to improve self-esteem in people with a high ego, it would reduce prejudice among users, and it's one of the things that women demand from TV.
Maybe that could be a good idea.
Miguel Ángel
We have many accessible IRC channels, including those dedicated to helping newbies. I don't know if media-wiki has an inbuilt ability to access IRC through it (or one welded onto the side) but that might be something to consider if not.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Miguelinito miguelinito@gmail.com wrote:
One of the most recurrent warnings in Wikipedia is "this is not a forum". Wouldn't it be good to have a forum in the village pump? Or even an own irc channel easily accesible?
In Spain we have a refrain: "Hablando se entiende la gente" (talking is the way to work things out). In the village pump, we can interchange information, but not emotion at all. We can't freely express ourselves and we all feel as if we were in a school exam instead of feeling comfortable as with a group of friends. We have to weigh words carefully and we are punished if we don't. That may be good for people who are used to it, but not for everybody, certainly.
Sometimes we know somebody professionally (in this case, as a Wikipedia editor) but we know nothing about that someone personally, and, when we really know that person, we notice that we can start talking with no prejudices, and that we even need less words to express ourselves. I think that's one of the reasons why women like social networks so much. They can *feel* people, not just reading their arguments. Of course, I don't mean to give personal data, like real name, profession, etc., but just to talk in another level, more personal. Ask any professional and they'll tell you that emotions are a very important part of communication at a personal level. It would be an effective way to improve self-esteem in people with a high ego, it would reduce prejudice among users, and it's one of the things that women demand from TV.
Maybe that could be a good idea.
Miguel Ángel
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
That would work; the problem is overwhelming things. IRC channels can only take so many people before becoming a wall of noise, and setting it as the first port of call for readers might bork things up in that regard. Perhaps something at the Village Pump, or a similar "internal" but widely-read page, would be a more effective idea.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Miguelinito miguelinito@gmail.com wrote:
I mean something like a link in the left column of the main page, or even a link in the thread boxes (Liquid Threats) themselves. How many people are usually connected to the IRC channel and how many are usually reading Wikipedia? I don't know the ratio, but it must be overwhelming.I am editing Wikipedia since years ago, and I connected to the IRC channel maybe three, four times in all that time, not more. I imagine that newbies do it even less than me. And it would be great for a first contact with Wikipedia editors, much better than a cold template.
Miguel Ángel
We have many accessible IRC channels, including those dedicated to helping newbies. I don't know if media-wiki has an inbuilt ability to access IRC through it (or one welded onto the side) but that might be something to consider if not.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Miguelinito miguelinito@gmail.com wrote: One of the most recurrent warnings in Wikipedia is "this is not a forum". Wouldn't it be good to have a forum in the village pump? Or even an own irc channel easily accesible?
In Spain we have a refrain: "Hablando se entiende la gente" (talking is the way to work things out). In the village pump, we can interchange information, but not emotion at all. We can't freely express ourselves and we all feel as if we were in a school exam instead of feeling comfortable as with a group of friends. We have to weigh words carefully and we are punished if we don't. That may be good for people who are used to it, but not for everybody, certainly.
Sometimes we know somebody professionally (in this case, as a Wikipedia editor) but we know nothing about that someone personally, and, when we really know that person, we notice that we can start talking with no prejudices, and that we even need less words to express ourselves. I think that's one of the reasons why women like social networks so much. They can *feel* people, not just reading their arguments. Of course, I don't mean to give personal data, like real name, profession, etc., but just to talk in another level, more personal. Ask any professional and they'll tell you that emotions are a very important part of communication at a personal level. It would be an effective way to improve self-esteem in people with a high ego, it would reduce prejudice among users, and it's one of the things that women demand from TV.
Maybe that could be a good idea.
Miguel Ángel
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
*-- Saludos, Miguelinito mailto:miguelinito@gmail.commiguelinito@gmail.com
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
I mean something like a link in the left column of the main page, or even a link in the thread boxes (Liquid Threats) themselves. How many people are usually connected to the IRC channel and how many are usually reading Wikipedia? I don't know the ratio, but it must be overwhelming.I am editing Wikipedia since years ago, and I connected to the IRC channel maybe three, four times in all that time, not more. I imagine that newbies do it even less than me. And it would be great for a first contact with Wikipedia editors, much better than a cold template.
Miguel Ángel
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have many accessible IRC channels, including those dedicated to helping newbies. I don't know if media-wiki has an inbuilt ability to access IRC through it (or one welded onto the side) but that might be something to consider if not.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Miguelinito miguelinito@gmail.com wrote: One of the most recurrent warnings in Wikipedia is "this is not a forum". Wouldn't it be good to have a forum in the village pump? Or even an own irc channel easily accesible?
In Spain we have a refrain: "Hablando se entiende la gente" (talking is the way to work things out). In the village pump, we can interchange information, but not emotion at all. We can't freely express ourselves and we all feel as if we were in a school exam instead of feeling comfortable as with a group of friends. We have to weigh words carefully and we are punished if we don't. That may be good for people who are used to it, but not for everybody, certainly.
Sometimes we know somebody professionally (in this case, as a Wikipedia editor) but we know nothing about that someone personally, and, when we really know that person, we notice that we can start talking with no prejudices, and that we even need less words to express ourselves. I think that's one of the reasons why women like social networks so much. They can *feel* people, not just reading their arguments. Of course, I don't mean to give personal data, like real name, profession, etc., but just to talk in another level, more personal. Ask any professional and they'll tell you that emotions are a very important part of communication at a personal level. It would be an effective way to improve self-esteem in people with a high ego, it would reduce prejudice among users, and it's one of the things that women demand from TV.
Maybe that could be a good idea.
Miguel Ángel
_______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Apparently the message I sent in reply to this didn't get through; strange. Anyway, a mainpage link might be a bad idea - with the number of readers we've got, the channels may get overwhelmed. Perhaps the village pump or somewhere prominent in the "help" pages? Somewhere internal but widely read.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Miguelinito miguelinito@gmail.com wrote:
I mean something like a link in the left column of the main page, or even a link in the thread boxes (Liquid Threats) themselves. How many people are usually connected to the IRC channel and how many are usually reading Wikipedia? I don't know the ratio, but it must be overwhelming.I am editing Wikipedia since years ago, and I connected to the IRC channel maybe three, four times in all that time, not more. I imagine that newbies do it even less than me. And it would be great for a first contact with Wikipedia editors, much better than a cold template.
Miguel Ángel
We have many accessible IRC channels, including those dedicated to helping newbies. I don't know if media-wiki has an inbuilt ability to access IRC through it (or one welded onto the side) but that might be something to consider if not.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Miguelinito miguelinito@gmail.com wrote: One of the most recurrent warnings in Wikipedia is "this is not a forum". Wouldn't it be good to have a forum in the village pump? Or even an own irc channel easily accesible?
In Spain we have a refrain: "Hablando se entiende la gente" (talking is the way to work things out). In the village pump, we can interchange information, but not emotion at all. We can't freely express ourselves and we all feel as if we were in a school exam instead of feeling comfortable as with a group of friends. We have to weigh words carefully and we are punished if we don't. That may be good for people who are used to it, but not for everybody, certainly.
Sometimes we know somebody professionally (in this case, as a Wikipedia editor) but we know nothing about that someone personally, and, when we really know that person, we notice that we can start talking with no prejudices, and that we even need less words to express ourselves. I think that's one of the reasons why women like social networks so much. They can *feel* people, not just reading their arguments. Of course, I don't mean to give personal data, like real name, profession, etc., but just to talk in another level, more personal. Ask any professional and they'll tell you that emotions are a very important part of communication at a personal level. It would be an effective way to improve self-esteem in people with a high ego, it would reduce prejudice among users, and it's one of the things that women demand from TV.
Maybe that could be a good idea.
Miguel Ángel
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- Saludos, Miguelinito mailto:miguelinito@gmail.com
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
It was me who sent the message twice (the first one appeared as a link -instead of text- to me). I didn't know that you could read it.
Yes, that's it. I thought of a sixth section of the village pump. For a start, it could do. The idea is to bring users the possibility to feel that they can fulfill their interests and get rid of worries they don't know how to express with the correct words in the other sections. Many times problems arise just for a misunderstanding, and a detailed conversation would surely avoid them.
Miguel Ángel
Apparently the message I sent in reply to this didn't get through; strange. Anyway, a mainpage link might be a bad idea - with the number of readers we've got, the channels may get overwhelmed. Perhaps the village pump or somewhere prominent in the "help" pages? Somewhere internal but widely read.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Miguelinito miguelinito@gmail.com wrote: I mean something like a link in the left column of the main page, or even a link in the thread boxes (Liquid Threats) themselves. How many people are usually connected to the IRC channel and how many are usually reading Wikipedia? I don't know the ratio, but it must be overwhelming.I am editing Wikipedia since years ago, and I connected to the IRC channel maybe three, four times in all that time, not more. I imagine that newbies do it even less than me. And it would be great for a first contact with Wikipedia editors, much better than a cold template.
Miguel Ángel
We have many accessible IRC channels, including those dedicated to helping newbies. I don't know if media-wiki has an inbuilt ability to access IRC through it (or one welded onto the side) but that might be something to consider if not.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Miguelinito miguelinito@gmail.com wrote: One of the most recurrent warnings in Wikipedia is "this is not a forum". Wouldn't it be good to have a forum in the village pump? Or even an own irc channel easily accesible?
In Spain we have a refrain: "Hablando se entiende la gente" (talking is the way to work things out). In the village pump, we can interchange information, but not emotion at all. We can't freely express ourselves and we all feel as if we were in a school exam instead of feeling comfortable as with a group of friends. We have to weigh words carefully and we are punished if we don't. That may be good for people who are used to it, but not for everybody, certainly.
Sometimes we know somebody professionally (in this case, as a Wikipedia editor) but we know nothing about that someone personally, and, when we really know that person, we notice that we can start talking with no prejudices, and that we even need less words to express ourselves. I think that's one of the reasons why women like social networks so much. They can *feel* people, not just reading their arguments. Of course, I don't mean to give personal data, like real name, profession, etc., but just to talk in another level, more personal. Ask any professional and they'll tell you that emotions are a very important part of communication at a personal level. It would be an effective way to improve self-esteem in people with a high ego, it would reduce prejudice among users, and it's one of the things that women demand from TV.
Maybe that could be a good idea.
Miguel Ángel
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- Saludos, Miguelinito mailto:miguelinito@gmail.com
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Well, I don't think an additional village pump section would be particularly helpful (nor is it really within this mailing list's remit to do more than * suggest* it). If people cannot get the right atmosphere at the current segments, creating a new one - which would, by necessity, be through the same medium and bound by the same guidelines - is unlikely to make an impact.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Miguelinito miguelinito@gmail.com wrote:
It was me who sent the message twice (the first one appeared as a link -instead of text- to me). I didn't know that you could read it.
Yes, that's it. I thought of a sixth section of the village pump. For a start, it could do. The idea is to bring users the possibility to feel that they can fulfill their interests and get rid of worries they don't know how to express with the correct words in the other sections. Many times problems arise just for a misunderstanding, and a detailed conversation would surely avoid them.
Miguel Ángel
Apparently the message I sent in reply to this didn't get through; strange. Anyway, a mainpage link might be a bad idea - with the number of readers we've got, the channels may get overwhelmed. Perhaps the village pump or somewhere prominent in the "help" pages? Somewhere internal but widely read.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Miguelinito miguelinito@gmail.com
wrote:
I mean something like a link in the left column of the main page, or even a link in the thread boxes (Liquid Threats) themselves. How many people are usually connected to the IRC channel and how many are usually reading Wikipedia? I don't know the ratio, but it must be overwhelming.I am editing Wikipedia since years ago, and I connected to the IRC channel maybe three, four times in all that time, not more. I imagine that newbies do it even less than me. And it would be great for a first contact with Wikipedia editors, much better than a cold template.
Miguel Ángel
We have many accessible IRC channels, including those dedicated to helping newbies. I don't know if media-wiki has an inbuilt ability to access IRC through it (or one welded onto the side) but that might be something to consider if not.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Miguelinito miguelinito@gmail.com
wrote:
One of the most recurrent warnings in Wikipedia is "this is not a forum". Wouldn't it be good to have a forum in the village pump? Or even an own irc channel easily accesible?
In Spain we have a refrain: "Hablando se entiende la gente" (talking is the way to work things out). In the village pump, we can interchange information, but not emotion at all. We can't freely express ourselves and we all feel as if we were in a school exam instead of feeling comfortable as with a group of friends. We have to weigh words carefully and we are punished if we don't. That may be good for people who are used to it, but not for everybody, certainly.
Sometimes we know somebody professionally (in this case, as a Wikipedia editor) but we know nothing about that someone personally, and, when we really know that person, we notice that we can start talking with no prejudices, and that we even need less words to express ourselves. I think that's one of the reasons why women like social networks so much. They can *feel* people, not just reading their arguments. Of course, I don't mean to give personal data, like real name, profession, etc., but just to talk in another level, more personal. Ask any professional and they'll tell you that emotions are a very important part of communication at a personal level. It would be an effective way to improve self-esteem in people with a high ego, it would reduce prejudice among users, and it's one of the things that women demand from TV.
Maybe that could be a good idea.
Miguel Ángel
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- Saludos, Miguelinito mailto:miguelinito@gmail.com
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
OK, I suggested and, I can't do any more, correct. But I think you misunderstood me (you see? :)), I meant a space with different guidelines, where you can talk freely, as in Facebook, for example. In a long term, and with the right technology, it could even gather users from other social networks.
"Imagine a world where everybody is connected and at the same time connected to the sum of all knowledge. That could be a real boom".
OK, end of suggestion ;-)
Miguel Ángel
Well, I don't think an additional village pump section would be particularly helpful (nor is it really within this mailing list's remit to do more than suggest it). If people cannot get the right atmosphere at the current segments, creating a new one - which would, by necessity, be through the same medium and bound by the same guidelines - is unlikely to make an impact.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Miguelinito miguelinito@gmail.com wrote: It was me who sent the message twice (the first one appeared as a link -instead of text- to me). I didn't know that you could read it.
Yes, that's it. I thought of a sixth section of the village pump. For a start, it could do. The idea is to bring users the possibility to feel that they can fulfill their interests and get rid of worries they don't know how to express with the correct words in the other sections. Many times problems arise just for a misunderstanding, and a detailed conversation would surely avoid them.
Miguel Ángel
Apparently the message I sent in reply to this didn't get through; strange. Anyway, a mainpage link might be a bad idea - with the number of readers we've got, the channels may get overwhelmed. Perhaps the village pump or somewhere prominent in the "help" pages? Somewhere internal but widely read.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Miguelinito miguelinito@gmail.com wrote: I mean something like a link in the left column of the main page, or even a link in the thread boxes (Liquid Threats) themselves. How many people are usually connected to the IRC channel and how many are usually reading Wikipedia? I don't know the ratio, but it must be overwhelming.I am editing Wikipedia since years ago, and I connected to the IRC channel maybe three, four times in all that time, not more. I imagine that newbies do it even less than me. And it would be great for a first contact with Wikipedia editors, much better than a cold template.
Miguel Ángel
We have many accessible IRC channels, including those dedicated to helping newbies. I don't know if media-wiki has an inbuilt ability to access IRC through it (or one welded onto the side) but that might be something to consider if not.
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Miguelinito miguelinito@gmail.com wrote: One of the most recurrent warnings in Wikipedia is "this is not a forum". Wouldn't it be good to have a forum in the village pump? Or even an own irc channel easily accesible?
In Spain we have a refrain: "Hablando se entiende la gente" (talking is the way to work things out). In the village pump, we can interchange information, but not emotion at all. We can't freely express ourselves and we all feel as if we were in a school exam instead of feeling comfortable as with a group of friends. We have to weigh words carefully and we are punished if we don't. That may be good for people who are used to it, but not for everybody, certainly.
Sometimes we know somebody professionally (in this case, as a Wikipedia editor) but we know nothing about that someone personally, and, when we really know that person, we notice that we can start talking with no prejudices, and that we even need less words to express ourselves. I think that's one of the reasons why women like social networks so much. They can *feel* people, not just reading their arguments. Of course, I don't mean to give personal data, like real name, profession, etc., but just to talk in another level, more personal. Ask any professional and they'll tell you that emotions are a very important part of communication at a personal level. It would be an effective way to improve self-esteem in people with a high ego, it would reduce prejudice among users, and it's one of the things that women demand from TV.
Maybe that could be a good idea.
Miguel Ángel
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
-- Saludos, Miguelinito mailto:miguelinito@gmail.com
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
_______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
I think the idea of a forum is counterproductive. I get along on Wikipedia by not knowing that my colleagues are, like any normal swath of the population, often bigots of all sorts. Better to be silent and thought hateful than to speak and remove all doubt. The last thing we need is a forum to foment unrest and drama; enough of that is created during the course of actual editing.
I'm all for relaxing of the "not myspace" rules, because I think they often are excessive and silly. Wikipedia is a hobby, not a job (with respect to those who work for the Wikimedia Foundation), and I don't think I'm alone in not finding a "professional" atmosphere particularly enjoyable. Humans need to form communities and the way women are socialized makes us, in general, even more apt to form communities. But a forum or debate type environment does not foster community, or at least not the kind of community that we want.
Nepenthe
_______________________________________________
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
I think the idea of a forum is counterproductive. I get along on Wikipedia by not knowing that my colleagues are, like any normal swath of the population, often bigots of all sorts. Better to be silent and thought hateful than to speak and remove all doubt. The last thing we need is a forum to foment unrest and drama; enough of that is created during the course of actual editing.
I'm all for relaxing of the "not myspace" rules, because I think they often are excessive and silly. Wikipedia is a hobby, not a job (with respect to those who work for the Wikimedia Foundation), and I don't think I'm alone in not finding a "professional" atmosphere particularly enjoyable. Humans need to form communities and the way women are socialized makes us, in general, even more apt to form communities. But a forum or debate type environment does not foster community, or at least not the kind of community that we want.
Nepenthe
I agree. I often wonder what other editors are like in real life, particularly if butting heads is involved, but actually it doesn't matter. Someone editing, or engaging in administrative work, with an agenda is pretty much obvious, although people DO get away with stuff as it is not always practical to call attention to and resolve all such issues.
The community here, if one chooses to participate in it, is a community committed to creating a more or less accurate information resource which reflects diverse views with respect to information that is not well established. Those who feel that the views of their commercial, social, political, ethnic, or spiritual orientation should dominate or that other views should not be expressed are engaged in counter-productive behavior. This is somewhat balanced by countervailing efforts on the other side of almost any controversial matter. Hopefully some of these editors are eventually socialized into the larger project, although this is rather far-fetched with respect to those who are here to advance commercial interests. That aspect of our policies and practices can properly be discussed on our various talk pages, project pages and noticeboards.
Which is to say, community on Wikipedia is organized about the work we are doing. Which is not to say Wikipedia is not a hobby, or avocation, but even at a convention of hobbyists there is focused attention on relevant matters, which in our case is not content per se but adequate treatment of it.
Fred